A tout is a

[Anonymous]

A week ago I posted a list of whatever I thought represented minimum standards for any facility that wanted to treat adolescents away from their homes for the variety of "conditions" that the tough love industry purportsto treat.
  My post was as follows:

       The difficulty with the who's generalities about the industry is that it ignores the awful pain and suffereng experienced by all of the adolescents that were horribly harmed over the years as the industry became more sophisticated and the families that were promised they would be helped and were actually ripped asunder by an industry that said it was about kids and families but was actually about money and junk science using kids as guinea pigs and the kids and families being hurt today in theindustry's most recent incarnation.  If you and your industry are serious about doing what is right let's talk about some general rules based on the law and what we know and you seem to acknowledge about adolescent development and the lack of support for facilities that abuse kids and call the abuse- therapy.
Can we agree on these fundamental principles.

     
1)   All facilities, however they describe themselves, will provide the minimum education required in the state in which each adolescent resided before arriving at the facility.  The right and obligation of adolescents to an education will be acknowledged and not treated as a privilege which must be earned.

2)   Facilities, whatever they call themselves, will not seek to have health insurance pay any portions of tuition in the absence of a report for a psychiatrist who is unaffiliated with the facility, that the child has an illness that is recognized in the DSM 4 and that the facility treats in a manner consistent with the standard of care for that illness.

3)   efore using the word therapy to describe any of what they do the child who is to receive the therapy will be diagnosed with a condition or an illness and the facility will represent that the therapy is appropriate for the condition or illness.

4)   No facility, however they describe themselves, will accept adolescents who are picked up by transport services in the middle of the night recognizing that the use of such services is destructive to the relationship between children and their parents and is an act of cowardice and immaturity on the part of the parents.

5)   Recognizing that the relationship of children with their parents is important, no  facility will accept a child whose parents are divorced  where the placement will impact on the non custodial parents visitation rights without first being provided with a court order permitting the placement.

6)   All facilities will include in their promotional material specific details on the educational levels and certifications of all employees providing professional services. The distinction between services being provided by licensed professional and services being provided by others will be made clear.

7)   All facilities will make available information about the number of adolescents  admitted to the program in the past five years and the number that successfully “graduated” from the program..

   All facilities will make it clear that it does not approve or tolerate physical abuse of adolescents, the use of exercise as punishment, the withholding of food or sleep as therapy or punishment, and the humiliation of adolescents as therapy. 

9)   All facilities will permit adolescents regular and unmonitored contact with their parents after an initial blackout period not to exceed two weeks.

10)   No adolescent will be admitted to a facility based on a diagnosis contained within the DSM 4 unless they have first been treated for the condition that the facility diagnosed on an out patient basis in the community in which they live and if the diagnosis includes a disorder premised on an inability to get along with their parents the family has had a course of family therapy with a licensed therapist.

       I suspect this would not work for the industry because if they followed them an industry, based on junk science, would seek to exist. [/b]         The post and what follows appears on page 2 of a topic called "struggling teens changes their tune"



         The poster who calls himself who but appears to be a tout for the industry engaged me.  He called most of the points "reasonable but when I asked which facilities followed them he refused to respond.  Instead he manipulated and steered the conversation in a remarkably condescending way and then started a new thread here he could get a list that was more general on the board.  So I asked him to describe the facilities that met his new list he still would not respond.  Similarly he declined to provide any information that wilderness programs help with any illness in the dsm. I ended the conversation when who refused to play fair but said I would come back today of he was ready to engage in a serious way.  Are you who or do you still want to quit?

   



       

[Che Gookin]

Nice points, but given the fact that a prison is a prison no matter how well intentioned I'd like to see something about due process and the right to appeal on this list.

[seamus]

I totally agree, the right to due process(hmmm,theres some shaky ground) is not even recognised,so most programs engage in at best unlawful detention,or false arrest,I  fail to believe that a "treatment agreement" is in any way binding,nor does it entitle a program,or facility to deprive a person of their liberty.
I dont understand either why a private entity,like an employer, can make drug testing mandatory. In my mind,that constitutes an illegal search, your person is being searched,no probable cause,no warrant,no due process.What legal genius thought this insult to civil liberty is a good idea?

[Froderik]

I dont understand either why a private entity,like an employer, can make drug testing mandatory. In my mind,that constitutes an illegal search, your person is being searched,no probable cause,no warrant,no due process.What legal genius thought this insult to civil liberty is a good idea?

When I've brought this up, I got the explanation that lawsuits were won against companies who had hired employees that fucked up on the job in a bad way and then tested positive for pot or whatever. So, thus started the trend: companies started deciding to shell out for drug tests to avoid these potential lawsuits. Of course, these drug testing companies must have had their sales pitches to scare companies into buying 'protection' against these types of lawsuits. (I'll bet some of these would make for some entertaining reading.) I don't like it any more than you do, believe me. This is just an attempt to answer your question....
 

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Experience hath shown, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

[TheWho]

Yup, that’s the trend… Lawyers and insurance companies are forcing this upon us.  Some guy will come in stoned or drunk and screw up, loose an arm or put downers in the uppers bottle.  Then proceed to blame the company for not making the work place safe enough, OSHA gets involved (as they should).  So now everyone starts suing and the insurance companies have to start paying off.  So they raise their premiums or force the companies to start drug testing the employees.



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[TheWho]

The poster who calls himself who but appears to be a tout for the industry engaged me.  He called most of the points "reasonable but when I asked which facilities followed them he refused to respond.  Instead he manipulated and steered the conversation in a remarkably condescending way and then started a new thread here he could get a list that was more general on the board.  So I asked him to describe the facilities that met his new list he still would not respond.  Similarly he declined to provide any information that wilderness programs help with any illness in the dsm. I ended the conversation when who refused to play fair but said I would come back today of he was ready to engage in a serious way.  Are you who or do you still want to quit?

I think you need to read further thru the thread where we agreed on some changes to the 10 points.  It has been a week so you probably forgot on the reword, I moved the thread because I felt the conversation warranted a separate thread and your list was off topic there.  For one person to make a list and expect the industry to meet them without review does not make any sense.  First of all we need to separate out wilderness and TBS because they would have different requirements based on the differences in structure and define a list for each.  Secondly, when we are done defining and agreeing on a list, how do you propose determining which schools or wilderness programs meet the list?  We would need to attain a copy of each schools working procedures.  This would be difficult to get.

To me the value of the list would be for prospective parents who could review it and then have that list of questions in hand when they speak to the school.

Lets review the list again in context of TBS’s first and reconsider the changes that I proposed last time and try to integrate them.  I received some emails form parents who suggested some changes also. 


I am happy to see you came back.... many were afraid you ran away for good.


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[Anonymous]

Dear Tout

   I know what was in the thread.  The key was your agreeing that my list was reasonable and then refusing to name schools that followed even a few of what was on the list.  .  If you want to make a list you can  but if you want me to be part of it you have to act reasonably.  Npw lets come back to where we left off.  You know a lot about these facilities.  You couldcome on this board and say there are good places for troubled adolescents.  Here is what they are.  Here is how they work.  Here are their names.  You have chosen not to do that.  Instead you embrace the "industry."  That includes the best and the worst. 
    So I ask you again.  What is the basis for saying that wilderness is helpful for any diagnisis in the dsm? Simple question.  HOw about a simple answer. Make it simple.
      What facilties- just a few- how about one comply with the listthat you agreed to.
     And while you are at it since I know that lanuage matters to you please explain why what you wrote as unmonitored phone calls initially you changed a few posts later to periodic "unmonitored" phone calls.
     And when did it become a wish list.  My list were minimum requirements- not a wish list at all.
     
     

[TheWho]

Why be rude?  Why not Dear TheWho?  Why do you set the tone of confrontation and then ask people to be reasonable and expect them to work with you?  It shows your inexperience and immaturity with regard to discussions, but lets continue.

What is the basis for saying that wilderness is helpful for any diagnisis in the dsm?

I don’t recall saying that, MIS.  I am not a professional in the field and would refer this to as therapist to answer.

What facilties- just a few- how about one comply with the listthat you agreed to.

I said your list was reasonable, but, needed honing, which we started until you had to go… here is a reminder:
“allright who. We really are moving along. I appreciate it.
We have two principles we can agree on
#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the  therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents…..”

http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?PHPSES ... #msg308733

And while you are at it since I know that lanuage matters to you please explain why what you wrote as unmonitored phone calls initially you changed a few posts later to periodic "unmonitored" phone calls.

Hmmm.  I don’t recall my thinking there….  It seems I didn’t want to make the impression that kids could just call when ever they wanted or have access to the phone 24/7.  So I feel the calls should be scheduled each week.

And when did it become a wish list.  My list were minimum requirements- not a wish list at all.

Because requirements, to me, indicates that all parties have agreed to it or that they are defined by the state or local authorities.  If I were to make a list of requirements I wouldn’t expect the schools to be on the same page as me, how could they?  But from a parent/customer perspective we could create a list which would represent our “wishes”….. “Wish List”.


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[Anonymous]

Dear tout aka the who
   My tone has not changed. I never believed we were working together towards anything.  I believe your role here is dishonest because you are a tout here doing a job.  I believed I would be able to demonstrate that and I have.
   So here are my questions.  They are fair and arise naturally from our back and forth.
     
     What is the basis for saying that wilderness is helpful for any diagnosis in the dsm? Simple question.  HOw about a simple answer? Make it simple.
      What facilties- just a few- how about one- that complies with the list that you agreed to.
     And while you are at it since I know that lanuage matters to you please explain why what you wrote as unmonitored phone calls initially you changed a few posts later to periodic "unmonitored" phone calls.?
     
       

   

[TheWho]

Dear tout aka the who
   My tone has not changed. I never believed we were working together towards anything.  I believe your role here is dishonest because you are a tout here doing a job.  I believed I would be able to demonstrate that and I have.
   So here are my questions.  They are fair and arise naturally from our back and forth.
     
     What is the basis for saying that wilderness is helpful for any diagnosis in the dsm? Simple question.  HOw about a simple answer? Make it simple.
      What facilties- just a few- how about one- that complies with the list that you agreed to.
     And while you are at it since I know that lanuage matters to you please explain why what you wrote as unmonitored phone calls initially you changed a few posts later to periodic "unmonitored" phone calls.?
     
       

   

Read my last post

[Anonymous]

I did and if you are referring to me to your explanation about the phone calls does that mean once a week?  Why? How about calls to aunts, uncles, grand parents, favorite teachers  And why did you put unmonitored in parentheses? Are you taking off the parentheses now?

And how about the other two questions that you refused to answer last week?  You've had a week to come up with an answer-or two.  It should not be hard at all.

[TheWho]

I did and if you are referring to me to your explanation about the phone calls does that mean once a week?  Why? How about calls to aunts, uncles, grand parents, favorite teachers  And why did you put unmonitored in parentheses? Are you taking off the parentheses now?

I think once a week is reasonable.  If the child had a special Aunt or Uncle in their life then yes that should be considered too.  But it should not be open ended.  Sometimes the child’s problem could stem from a relative and they may need to be isolated from them. 

I don’t see any significance in the parenthesis.  If you feel better having them off then that is fine with me, either way.

And how about the other two questions that you refused to answer last week?  You've had a week to come up with an answer-or two.  It should not be hard at all.

I don’t recall saying I refused to answer any question.  Seems your credibility is slipping quickly.  You make accusations and then don’t back it up.  Why don’t you find the post where I stated that I refused to answer your question and then we will continue.  It won’t hurt you to do a little work yourself… just provide the link and we will take a look together.


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[Anonymous]

you are joking right?
I asked several questions last week and again this time.
They are straightforward

names of facilities that meet the items on your list?
efficacy of wilderness for dsm conditions?

[DieYuppieSkum]

who, shut your trap... just shut your bloody trap.

the only reason treatment centers do not allow kids to call anyone other then their parents is so the child does not reveal the hell that truly is where they are being kept captive. The parents can be lied to and worked with seeing how most of the time it's the parents that do the sending. Once you add another person to the party it screws up the formula and thats what ruins the business. They then pass this practice off as "therapeutic" because of the slight possibility that some of the child's past acquaintances are negative influences but then they milk that and use it to bar out teachers, school counselors, grandparents, and anyone that would look outside the box and see that it was all a bunch of shit. I know this to be true because my Aunts were told I was at a boarding school by my mother who was told to tell them that by P.V .staff. The rules placed on kids are just a clever form of censoring what is going on. Notice why the only kids that can call by themselves are upper levels... those that have bought in to the program and will say what is on the script.

[TheWho]

you are joking right?
I asked several questions last week and again this time.
They are straightforward

names of facilities that meet the items on your list?
efficacy of wilderness for dsm conditions?

I addressed both of those questions, but you never responded.  MIS, you need to read my posts if we are to have a conversation.  You seem to be missing most of what I say.  I have repeated my answers to you.... here one more time..... and also where is that post which states I refused to answer you?  Have you found it yet?

What is the basis for saying that wilderness is helpful for any diagnisis in the dsm?

I don’t recall saying that, MIS.  I am not a professional in the field and would refer this to as therapist to answer.

What facilties- just a few- how about one comply with the listthat you agreed to.

I said your list was reasonable, but, needed honing, which we started until you had to go… here is a reminder:
“allright who. We really are moving along. I appreciate it.
We have two principles we can agree on
#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the  therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents…..”

http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?PHPSES ... #msg308733

And while you are at it since I know that lanuage matters to you please explain why what you wrote as unmonitored phone calls initially you changed a few posts later to periodic "unmonitored" phone calls.

Hmmm.  I don’t recall my thinking there….  It seems I didn’t want to make the impression that kids could just call when ever they wanted or have access to the phone 24/7.  So I feel the calls should be scheduled each week.

And when did it become a wish list.  My list were minimum requirements- not a wish list at all.

Because requirements, to me, indicates that all parties have agreed to it or that they are defined by the state or local authorities.  If I were to make a list of requirements I wouldn’t expect the schools to be on the same page as me, how could they?  But from a parent/customer perspective we could create a list which would represent our “wishes”….. “Wish List”.


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