A tout is a

[DieYuppieSkum]

it's like piss in the wind with you

[TheWho]

.....and also, MIS, where is that post which states I refused to answer you?  Have you found it yet?

Your credibility has faded quickly.  I would like to get this list (of 10 items) nailed down ASAP.  Dont quit on me!!



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[DieYuppieSkum]

I don't know about any posts where he accused you of stating to refuse to answer his question... but I do recall posts where you simply DON'T answer his questions, and thats something you have been doing for a while. Quit playing this game who it's getting really fucking old. You split hairs and I am beginning to feel my brain melting out the side of my head due to your stupid fucking games.

[TheWho]

I don't know about any posts where he accused you of stating to refuse to answer his question... but I do recall posts where you simply DON'T answer his questions, and thats something you have been doing for a while.

Here it is:

"And how about the other two questions that you refused to answer last week?  You've had a week to come up with an answer-or two.  It should not be hard at all."

http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?PHPSES ... #msg309384



 

Quit playing this game who it's getting really fucking old. You split hairs and I am beginning to feel my brain melting out the side of my head due to your stupid fucking games.

Look DYS, dont try to derail the thread again, it is MIS who is not following the discussion.  I have addressed every issue.  If you have been following along you know this already.



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[TheWho]

“A Tout is”:  a person who frequents heavily touristed areas and presents himself as a tour guide.



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[Anonymous]

who
  against my better judgment I will do this with you one more time.  After you put a few things on the list I thought it was time to test your sincerity so I asked you the following:
So here's my question who

Where are the studies, statistics, etc that support the notion that what you call wildeness therapy cures any dsm illness
What are the facilities that follow the list we made so far?.

I asked you those questions last week at the beginning of the "ideal tbs thread" after you switched from the "struggling teens has changed thread" because you did not like how it was going there.  You refused to answer so I said I was done and said I would come back in a week and see if a week off would cause you to modify your behavior. It looks like it hasn't.


I am now giving you another chance to answer and you are playing games.  That is ok.  As I said at the beginning I do not get frustrated with you.  I appreaciate who you are and that you have a job to do but if you will not play fair please stop wasting my time and yours.
And please don't think that questioning my credibility or what others say about me bothers me.  As I told you last week I am not worried about any of that stuff. I don't care whether anyone on this site likes me.  I am not looking for friends.

[TheWho]

Where are the studies, statistics, etc that support the notion that what you call wildeness therapy cures any dsm illness

I answered this question many times and I was clear.  I am not a therapist nor a professional in the field and cannot provide you information on this.  This is no game.

What are the facilities that follow the list we made so far?.

How could anyone answer this question without access to each schools procedures?  I have asked you this before.  Why would you think I would have this information?  You are asking how each school files insurance claims, how long it takes for each child to call home for the first time.  What system they use to accept children… there isn’t any one person who has all this information.   I don’t have the procedure on even one school or wilderness.

Why is it that you think I have all this information? 

[Anonymous]

I am confused who.  One of the items on the list is as follows: -"Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care."
  If you have no information that supports wilderness as a treatment then itis fair to assume that it is not evidence based or consistent with the stanbdard of care for anything and I must I assume you agree that no child should be sent to wilderness in the absence of a prescription from a licensed therapist in the place where the child originated. Am I right? Simple question! Can we get a simple answer.
  In regard to the facilities that follow the points you have listed I simply do not believe you do not know enough.  Your answer is simply preposterous.  You obviously know a lot about a variety of places.  If you could not answer this you would have no reason to be on this board.  You do not have to provide them all- two or three will do!

[TheWho]

I am confused who.  One of the items on the list is as follows: -"Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care."
  If you have no information that supports wilderness as a treatment then itis fair to assume that it is not evidence based or consistent with the stanbdard of care for anything and I must I assume you agree that no child should be sent to wilderness in the absence of a prescription from a licensed therapist in the place where the child originated. Am I right? Simple question! Can we get a simple answer.

No, I don’t agree at all.  I don’t believe there needs to be a prescription written to send a child to Wilderness Camp.  A medical release from the child’s pediatrician would offset any problems from a medical standpoint


 

In regard to the facilities that follow the points you have listed I simply do not believe you do not know enough.  Your answer is simply preposterous.  You obviously know a lot about a variety of places.  If you could not answer this you would have no reason to be on this board.  You do not have to provide them all- two or three will do!

Sorry, I don’t have access to any schools procedures.  I think the best we can do is come up with a great list for parents to have (in hand) when they visit the schools.  This would help them weed out the less desirable places.



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[TheWho]

1)   All facilities, however they describe themselves, will provide the minimum education required in the state in which each adolescent resided before arriving at the facility.  The right and obligation of adolescents to an education will be acknowledged and not treated as a privilege which must be earned.

I believe, by law, the school needs to provide an education as dictated by the laws within the state the school exists.

2)   Facilities, whatever they call themselves, will not seek to have health insurance pay any portions of tuition in the absence of a report for a psychiatrist who is unaffiliated with the facility, that the child has an illness that is recognized in the DSM 4 and that the facility treats in a manner consistent with the standard of care for that illness.

I think the health insurance companies have this covered, anyway.

3)   efore using the word therapy to describe any of what they do the child who is to receive the therapy will be diagnosed with a condition or an illness and the facility will represent that the therapy is appropriate for the condition or illness.

Some children are not diagnosed with a condition.  I believe we could reword this to include allowing the child to attend the school under the advisement of the child therapist.

4)   No facility, however they describe themselves, will accept adolescents who are picked up by transport services in the middle of the night recognizing that the use of such services is destructive to the relationship between children and their parents and is an act of cowardice and immaturity on the part of the parents.

I believe we covered this and decided to scratch it.

5)   Recognizing that the relationship of children with their parents is important, no  facility will accept a child whose parents are divorced  where the placement will impact on the non custodial parents visitation rights without first being provided with a court order permitting the placement.

If the parent has full custody then they should be allowed to place the child themselves, the court specifies this.

6)   All facilities will include in their promotional material specific details on the educational levels and certifications of all employees providing professional services. The distinction between services being provided by licensed professional and services being provided by others will be made clear.

Sounds reasonable

7)   All facilities will make available information about the number of adolescents  admitted to the program in the past five years and the number that successfully “graduated” from the program..

I agree with this.

 

  All facilities will make it clear that it does not approve or tolerate physical abuse of adolescents, the use of exercise as punishment, the withholding of food or sleep as therapy or punishment, and the humiliation of adolescents as therapy. 

Absolutely agree

9)   All facilities will permit adolescents regular and unmonitored contact with their parents after an initial blackout period not to exceed two weeks.

I agree with the exception that the initial block out period could account for enough time for the child to complete a wilderness program.

10)   No adolescent will be admitted to a facility based on a diagnosis contained within the DSM 4 unless they have first been treated for the condition that the facility diagnosed on an out patient basis in the community in which they live and if the diagnosis includes a disorder premised on an inability to get along with their parents the family has had a course of family therapy with a licensed therapist.

Great idea, I will buy into this.

A couple areas which we need to cover are:

Some parents would like to see TBS’s without fences.

Some other parents mentioned that they would like to see evidence of background checks done on the employees.  Not sure how this could be insured, but it is a good question and deserves consideration to be added to the list.

I would like to keep the list to 10 items so maybe we can combine some of the previous ones.



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[Anonymous]

who

   now you are going back to my earlier list and providing different responses.  Your new responses are completely inconsistent with what you said earlier- particularly your now claimning that kidsa are admitted without being diagnosed with dsm conditions.  Then why are they there? And no I never would agree to sanction a facility that has kids brought by armed guards.  There is no condition I know of for which the use of escorts as they exist and are marketed would not be contraindicated and no practice more likely to insure that the family will not reconcile. 

    Regarding wilderness- you are not that naive.  Wilderness is marketed to frightened parents for a variety of dsm conditions?  Aren't kids picked up by escort services and brought to wilderness who have been diagnosed with dsm conditions.  Doesn't your industry claim to treat those conditions with wilderness? You can't reconcile that with the item on the list.

    Regarding the identification of facilities your answer continues to be preposterous.  BUt if you insist I suggest that you do some research and if you can't find facilities that observe them you spend your time on the industry board's trying to convince them that the standrads are good ones before you add to the list of requirements.  HOw can you defend an industry without being able to identify the practices at any of them? 
   
    Your refusal to name the better facilities makes you a defender of the industry- an unregulated industry with no standards - and hence a tout for wwasp, sue scheff, the straight progeny and the Bundy's.  That is why what you do here is so invidious.

    Good night - who!
    I have to go now.  Let me know when - to use the vernacular- known to the straight victims--you are ready to get honest.  Until then you will remain in the first phase

     

[TheWho]

now you are going back to my earlier list and providing different responses.  Your new responses are completely inconsistent with what you said earlier- particularly your now claimning that kidsa are admitted without being diagnosed with dsm conditions.

Without going back to look at my previous responses, I believe I stated that as long as a therapist recommended the stay then it would be acceptable (TBS)
 

Then why are they there? And no I never would agree to sanction a facility that has kids brought by armed guards.  There is no condition I know of for which the use of escorts as they exist and are marketed would not be contraindicated and no practice more likely to insure that the family will not reconcile.

I agree, if they are carrying weapons I wouldn’t want kids transported that way.  Maybe we could rewrite the language.

Regarding wilderness- you are not that naive.  Wilderness is marketed to frightened parents for a variety of dsm conditions?  Aren't kids picked up by escort services and brought to wilderness who have been diagnosed with dsm conditions.  Doesn't your industry claim to treat those conditions with wilderness? You can't reconcile that with the item on the list.

Good question, I am not sure of the diagnoses of kids in wilderness.  I do know that many are under the care of a therapist.

Regarding the identification of facilities your answer continues to be preposterous.  BUt if you insist I suggest that you do some research and if you can't find facilities that observe them you spend your time on the industry board's trying to convince them that the standrads are good ones before you add to the list of requirements.  HOw can you defend an industry without being able to identify the practices at any of them? 

How can you be against the entire industry without knowing the details of every program?  I think our answers are the same, we look at the results of what the industry has produced.  If I based my opinion on the what is written here on fornits I would probably agree with your assumptions.  But I have seen the many kids who have benefited from TBS and wilderness so my conclusions are different than yours.

Your refusal to name the better facilities makes you a defender of the industry- an unregulated industry with no standards - and hence a tout for wwasp, sue scheff, the straight progeny and the Bundy's.  That is why what you do here is so invidious.

Ha,Ha,Ha,  you really like to heap it on.. you still have not been listening.  I don’t possess the list that you want.  As you gain more knowledge in the area of TBS and wilderness (and life in general) you will see that they all don’t fit a list of 10 items written by a random individual (no industry does).  There are millions of people in the world and if every company tried to meet the needs of everyone they would all fail.  No one has the magic answers that you want but it is good that you keep asking them, there is nothing wrong with that MIS.
Some schools may feel 1 week is long enough before a child calls home, others may feel 2,3,4 weeks is acceptable.  You happen to have the opinion that 2 weeks is the limit and that is okay, but not everyone is going to agree with you and it doesn’t make them evil because they don’t and we cant expect them to change because you say so….. do you see what I am getting at?  You don’t seem like a bad person but just a little naive on how businesses function.  If you thought cars should have 10 airbags in them and they presently have 7 then it doesn’t make the whole industry evil.  They based their decision on other factors, that’s all, you shouldn’t take it personally.

Good night - who!
    I have to go now.  Let me know when - to use the vernacular- known to the straight victims--you are ready to get honest.  Until then you will remain in the first phase

I have been honest from the beginning, but I know that is hard for you to believe.
Have a good night, MIS



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[DieYuppieSkum]

sorry, had to head out to long beach to run an errand.
I am SOOO fucking sorry who that I lack the desire to sift through your bullshit due to the fact there is so much of it. See, the fact is it's gotten to the point where I don't have the need anymore to read anything you say because I know your going to talk out of your ass... I just see the name "Who" and I know it's cram filled with self righteousness and bullshit and made up realities you tell yourself to convince yourself you have a daughter.



"I have been honest from the beginning, but I know that is hard for you to believe.
Have a good night, MIS"


You... honest?

I'd trust a meth fiend with a brand new bicycle before I trusted you with  ANYTHING revolving around honesty.



"your credibility has faded quickly"

Thats rich coming from somebody who lies about having a daughter mixed with the fact that NO ONE HERE LIKES NOR BELIEVES YOU

[TheWho]

sorry, had to head out to long beach to run an errand.
I am SOOO fucking sorry who that I lack the desire to sift through your bullshit due to the fact there is so much of it. See, the fact is it's gotten to the point where I don't have the need anymore to read anything you say because I know your going to talk out of your ass... I just see the name "Who" and I know it's cram filled with self righteousness and bullshit and made up realities you tell yourself to convince yourself you have a daughter.



"I have been honest from the beginning, but I know that is hard for you to believe.
Have a good night, MIS"


You... honest?

I'd trust a meth fiend with a brand new bicycle before I trusted you with  ANYTHING revolving around honesty.

See that is the difference between you and me.  You are apparently still young and focus on the small picture and everything revolves around yourself.  But as you get older you start to see that what you do effects other people.  Lending a person who is hooked on meth your brand new bike doesnt make you a good guy... if you were a decent person you would try to get the meth person some help.

You are probably a good person DYS, but you lack credibility in that you try to hard to discredit people because you disagree with them which forces yourself to be dishonest in so many areas.  This is why I am a little wary about your stories of being in a program.  Dont take it personally but I just dont believe anything you say.


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[DieYuppieSkum]

"Lending a person who is hooked on meth your brand new bike doesnt make you a good guy... if you were a decent person you would try to get the meth person some help."

Wow, you have PROVEN my point of your arrogance and stupidity. I was not making that reference in terms of "helping him"

I was making it because tweakers are the biggest thieves and liars on the planet... they will steal from you and help you look for what they stole and one of thoes items meth heads love are bikes... I myself as a former tweaker use to carry around bolt cutters and steal bikes all the damn time. I was using it as an ANALOGY to explain how little I trusted you And you (as usual) went and tried to turn it in to a fucking do gooder contest.

Dude, that last bit you wrote.... WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Is everything that comes from you just an attack on someone pointing out what YOU yourself do?

Do you have some rare disease where every problem in your life you pretend someone who hates your guts has instead? Really I want to know. Maybe we can get you some medication for that.... Maybe a treatment center could help too.. I say at least 2 years would do you some good.