Author Topic: Flier think tank for AA/NA/TC and etcs..  (Read 4572 times)

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Offline psy

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Re: Flier think tank for AA/NA/TC and etcs..
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2009, 02:41:13 AM »
Quote from: "xEnderx"
I didn't say that drugs cause changes in brain chemistry, I said that "addiction" causes long term changes in the way that the brain operates. This is readily apparent if you look at the MRI from a long term meth abuser during the time when they are using meth, during the 6 months after they cease to use, and during the 2-3 year period that it can take for the brain to return to "normal" functioning.

You can call that addiction if you want.  I just see it as poorly understood changes in the brain.

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I don't understand why you seem to be taking such offense to the things I've said, but I'm certianly not trying to offend anyone.

I'm not taking offense.  Sorry if It sounded that way.

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Addiction potential (as a clinical term) is defined by a drug's interaction with the mesolimbic pathway. When I say that something causes long term changes, I am speaking of the ability of the brain to regulate its production and distribution of neurotransmitters. Crossing the line from "abuse" into "addiction" occurs when the brain can no longer regulate itself or when it becomes unable to produce a chemical. Behaviorally this results in compulsions, obsession, etc. This is why from a treatment standpoint, addiction is considered to be an obsessive disorder.

There are studies going both ways on that.  Personally I think a person is always responsible for their behavior no matter what.

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I think you are under the impression that I am some sort of staunchly anti-drug person. I'm not.

Anti drug/pro drug isn't really the issue.  It's just a difference in perception of the problem.  My view like Stanton Peele's is that too much of AA's dogma has leaked into modern addiction science as fact.  Dogma is widely believed and becomes folk wisdom.  Folk wisdom becomes transparent accepted fact.  Here's a cool chapter you might find interesting that changed my outlook on quite a few things:

http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html


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You don't like AA, I get it. I can respect that. I apologize if I said something that made you feel like I'm attacking your stance. Not sure what else to say.

I think you're interpreting my feistiness as offense or somehow being upset.  It's not the case I assure you.

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Oh, and when I say medically treated (or whatever), I'm referring to things such as the use of anti-obsessional meds to help combat drug cravings, the use of benzo's (in a clinical setting) to combat life threatening DT's, open and frank use of methadone programs to treat opiate addiction on a long term basis, the use of needle exchange programs without the social stigma and demonization that occurs in America, ethical accountability to "drug docs", education for parents that want to cram their kids full of anti-depressants. Stuff like that. I also want to try and keep an open mind to the fact that psychiatric or medical assistance can mean life or death for someone that is active in their addiction.

I agree with what you're saying.  I think we would agree on most things, just not the philosophical underpinnings of why and to what extent substances actually control a person.
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Offline xEnderx

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Re: Flier think tank for AA/NA/TC and etcs..
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2009, 11:07:23 PM »
I don't feel that people are "controlled" by a substance or an addiction, but I do believe that the negative physical and mental side effects of both addiction and withdrawal compromise an individuals ability to react in a rational manner to outside stimuli. Someone going through intense opiate withdrawal is NOT in their "right" (what a subjective term) mind.

There are other things such as the obsessional and compulsive aspects of addiction that feed into my standpoint, but I don't think they have any real bearing on this discussion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Flier think tank for AA/NA/TC and etcs..
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2009, 09:07:13 AM »
I just like watching the loons at AA/NA scream and moan when someone points out that their little funny farm is full of shit and that is why I started the thread way back when.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »