drug addicts don't want to get clean

[psy]

They are worthless if they are using drugs. They are worthless to themselves, their family and society in general. The idea of humane treatment is to force them - yes, this is coercion - to stop poisoning themselves to death.

Making an emotional appeal to vague ideas of freedom and liberty does nothing to change the fact drug treatment has saved countless lives and will continue to do so long after this forum ceases to exist.

Freedom and liberty are not vague ideas but what this country is supposed to be built on.  Even if forced treatment worked (which it does not) it would still violate a person's most basic rights (especially in this industry, where there is no due process or right to appeal).

This means people like me can get sent to program (as I was) for being bisexual and having religious opinions my parents felt distasteful.  Yes I have documentation to prove this.  Point being is that "in need of treatment" is very relative, and what this industry offers is not treatment, but private pay re-education (in the soviet sense of the phrase).

The heartless comments that litter this discussion are a common example of the typical American bystander who refuses to help someone dying within their sight.

Shame

The fact that you are so convinced that death is inevitable without your idea of "treatment" is precisely what makes people like you so dangerous.    Are you a medical doctor?  You accuse me of making an emotional appeal based on freedom then call me heartless in the next breath before making another emotional appeal... whatever.

[Anonymous]

This means people like me can get sent to program (as I was) for being bisexual and having religious opinions my parents felt distasteful. Yes I have documentation to prove this.

I checked the Benchmark website and was surprised to find it is a program for adults up to age 28.

They make no mention  forced treatment.

Either you were committed by the state of California for being a danger to yourself or others, or you went wilingly.

What rights of yours were violated?

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

they dont use language like forced treatment they lie the website is a lie the brochures are a lie they will say whatever it is they know you want to hear b/c your scared! wake up!

[Anne Bonney]

They are worthless if they are using drugs. They are worthless to themselves, their family and society in general. The idea of humane treatment is to force them - yes, this is coercion - to stop poisoning themselves to death.

Do you people not make any distinction between use and abuse?

What gives you the right to force anyone to do anything?  Even if it is for their own good?  

Should I forcibly stop you from pounding down the Big Macs?

Should I forcibly stop all people from smoking cigarettes?

How 'bout those diet drinks?  All that diet shit is poison too.  Should we round them up?  

Making an emotional appeal to vague ideas of freedom and liberty does nothing to change the fact drug treatment has saved countless lives and will continue to do so long after this forum ceases to exist.

That may or may not be.  "Treatment" centers generally don't allow any clinical, long term studies or research to be done on them.  Hell, the last and only time that AA allowed a study to be done it came back that they had the same "success" rate as doing nothing and that participation in AA actually RAISED the death rate.  And that study was done by a Board member of AA.

"Treatment" centers don't like studies very much.  They never seem to prove out the outlandish claims made by them.

The heartless comments that litter this discussion are a common example of the typical American bystander who refuses to help someone dying within their sight.

Shame

Its a shame I had so much "help" for a problem I didn't even have that it almost killed me.

[TheWho]

What gives you the right to force anyone to do anything? Even if it is for their own good?

Should I forcibly stop you from pounding down the Big Macs?

Should I forcibly stop all people from smoking cigarettes?

How 'bout those diet drinks? All that diet shit is poison too. Should we round them up?

If you are the childs parents not only do you have the right, you have a moral and legal duty to do everything you can to stop them from hurting or killing themselves.

If you just sit there watching your 2 year old child as he drowns in a pool you are going to jail, you are responsible until the child is of legal age, doesnt matter if the child is 2 or 16 years old, the parent needs to do everything they can to help them.

[Anne Bonney]

If you just sit there watching your 2 year old child as he drowns in a pool you are going to jail, you are responsible until the child is of legal age, doesnt matter if the child is 2 or 16 years old, the parent needs to do everything they can to help them.

Mmm hmm. And if I subject my child to the kinds of "help" found in these places I'd be locked up for abuse.

Drowning in a pool is a far cry from smoking pot or drinking.  Of course its scary.  It was scary for me, but I knew better than to have her forcibly "altered".

[Anonymous]

What gives you the right to force anyone to do anything?  Even if it is for their own good?  

Should I forcibly stop you from pounding down the Big Macs?

Should I forcibly stop all people from smoking cigarettes?

How 'bout those diet drinks?  All that diet shit is poison too.  Should we round them up?  

If I was your spouse, brother, sister, son or daughter then I assume you would be doing everything you could to keep me from making unhealthy choices that result in death, or jail (Would you stop me from being a bank robber?).

This is what love is, we try to protect things we love from self-destructing.  Drugs do it faster, and the effects are more noticeable in the short-term so I assume this is why there is a difference in the action ultimately taken.

That may or may not be.  "Treatment" centers generally don't allow any clinical, long term studies or research to be done on them.  Hell, the last and only time that AA allowed a study to be done it came back that they had the same "success" rate as doing nothing and that participation in AA actually RAISED the death rate.  And that study was done by a Board member of AA.

"Treatment" centers don't like studies very much.  They never seem to prove out the outlandish claims made by them.

This could also prove that the people going through treatment, needed it, proven by the fact they return to the same unhealthy and potentially fatal behavior as before. Remember- true drug and alcohol addiction can be a hard problem to overcome, most users relapse after treatment.
 If most treatment placements were unecessary, these numbers would show programs in a positive light because they would simply choose to stop using drugs. Unfortunately, it's not that simple.

Its a shame I had so much "help" for a problem I didn't even have that it almost killed me.

If you did not have a serious drug or alcohol problem, then you should not be in drug treatment obviously. Your parents made a very poor choice and you paid the consequences, that is a shame.

This is why we need more professionals in the field of addiction. There is no blood test for alcohol or drug addiction. Treatment facilities have only the word of the loved one's instigating treatment, since an addict will not admit they have a problem. They are content to keep using until they die.

It is a hard situation for everyone involved.

[Anne Bonney]

There is no blood test for alcohol or drug addiction.

Because its not a disease.

http://www.peele.net/debate/choice.html






Damn, just had a client come in.  There's a ton more links regarding this subject.....anyone else got a few???  I'll be back to continue.

[Anonymous]

Anne, why argue with this troll - it's a total waste of your time.

[Anonymous]

There is no blood test for alcohol or drug addiction.

Because its not a disease.

http://www.peele.net/debate/choice.html






Damn, just had a client come in.  There's a ton more links regarding this subject.....anyone else got a few???  I'll be back to continue.

Is there a blood test for Schizephrenia? Bipolar? Multiple Personality Disorder? Cutting? Suicide?

Let's agree addiction is a personality disorder,  I can live with that.

[Anonymous]

Anne, why argue with this troll - it's a total waste of your time.

Nobody is arguing here. This is called a discussion, something that takes place on a discussion forum. Is open discussion really that much of a threat to your anti-program position? Must be...

[psy]

This means people like me can get sent to program (as I was) for being bisexual and having religious opinions my parents felt distasteful. Yes I have documentation to prove this.

I checked the Benchmark website and was surprised to find it is a program for adults up to age 28.

It's for 17-28.  Check the contract, there is a section for minors.  Many come from other programs.  Benchmark is a so-called "transitional" program.

They make no mention  forced treatment.

They say a lot of shit.  It doesn't make it true.

Either you were committed by the state of California for being a danger to yourself or others, or you went wilingly.

"committed" implies it is a medical facility.  Can you find any license or accreditation for Benchmark?  Thought not.

Did I not say what I was sent there for?  I've already posted documentation on this forum proving that before and if I didn't have better things to do I'd post another link.

Edit:  here it is:
http://www.fornits.com/docs/referralInfo.pdf

What rights of yours were violated?

I created a website to answer questions like this.  To put it simply, I was told by Benchmark I signed away my rights when I came into program.  What was advertised was not delivered.  My property was taken from me, my identification, and any money (yes this is theft).  Although I could technically leave, there are no local homeless shelters and what the hell could I do without ID, cash, clothes, food, water, shelter, etc...  They would actually throw people on the streets for days as punishment (and permanently when the money ran out).

[Anonymous]

Nobody is arguing here. This is called a discussion, something that takes place on a discussion forum. Is open discussion really that much of a threat to your anti-program position? Must be...

You aren't interested in a discussion either. So quit acting like you are. A discussion is something where ideas are hashed out and ideas exchanged -[b] you are only INVESTED in telling us how *addicts* (people who use drugs - hahaha) are going to end up deadinsaneorinjail.[/b] Now, that doesn't sound like a discussion to me. You have your conclusion, now go peddle it somewhere else, troll!

[Anonymous]

is there a test you can take that'll tell you your retarded? thewho and all like minded will be forcably sent to a program where they will not see the light of day for 2yrs where they will be denied bathroom privleges, yes they call using the bathroom a privelge, denied sleep, denied food, then denied your GOD given right to think for yourself and be yourself, b/c you are 'bad'. you will then be fully indoctrinated into the cult mind, you will then come to fornits and try to get others to join the cult b/c you are still brainwashed....oh wait that already happened and here they are, whether they went through a program or just had sociopaths for parents they are still endoctrinated and therfore abusing thewho you know who you are ...tell me what did your parents do to you?