CCM girl 1989

[TheWho]

He doesnt have any facts.  If you ask him for any he says the programs should provide them.  So why bring it up?

[TheWho]

He doesnt have any facts.  If you ask him for any he says the programs should provide them.  So why bring it up?

[Anonymous]

I've seen nothing except subjective bullshit and anecdotes.

The same is true for reports of abuse. If you are going to believe a kid who says they were abused you also have to accept the word of a kid who said their life was saved.

Show me proof that abuse occurs in programs. I'm waiting. No bullshit stories some spoiled kid made up to get back at their parents via guilt trip, I want hard proof.

That's ridiculous...There is so much proof, its impossible to know where to begin, also, people's testimony about abuse isn't negated because they are youth from wealthy families. God these conversations are so circular.

The point about ccm girl was, essentially, her view is that her experience was not abusive, therefore not all institutions are necessarily abusive, and that there are times when hospitalization or intervention of some sort is necessary. I don’t necessarily agree, but think that in some cases,say, after you chop up your family with a cleaver, or you lock yourself in your house for 2 years(howard hughes) there is a moral grey area, where having a pro forced-intrusion opinion doesn’t make you evil, and worthy of abuse.

I know a bit too much about emotional battery as a tactic to make someone say or do what you want. That’s justifiable when dealing with abusers, but not to a survivor who has a not necessarily correct opinion.

[TheWho]

I've seen nothing except subjective bullshit and anecdotes.

The same is true for reports of abuse. If you are going to believe a kid who says they were abused you also have to accept the word of a kid who said their life was saved.

Show me proof that abuse occurs in programs. I'm waiting. No bullshit stories some spoiled kid made up to get back at their parents via guilt trip, I want hard proof.

That's ridiculous...There is so much proof, its impossible to know where to begin, also, people's testimony about abuse isn't negated because they are youth from wealthy families. God these conversations are so circular.

The point about ccm girl was, essentially, her view is that her experience was not abusive, therefore not all institutions are necessarily abusive, and that there are times when hospitalization or intervention of some sort is necessary. I don’t necessarily agree, but think that in some cases,say, after you chop up your family with a cleaver, or you lock yourself in your house for 2 years(howard hughes) there is a moral grey area, where having a pro forced-intrusion opinion doesn’t make you evil, and worthy of abuse.

I know a bit too much about emotional battery as a tactic to make someone say or do what you want. That’s justifiable when dealing with abusers, but not to a survivor who has a not necessarily correct opinion.

Exactly, because you have listened to those people.  The argument is that there are also thousands of kids who benefited from the programs.  You dont need to be an adult to need help or be an addict.  It happens to teenagers too.  These are the ones we are talking about not the ones who shouldnt be there.
Understand what I am saying?

[Anonymous]

I've seen nothing except subjective bullshit and anecdotes.

The same is true for reports of abuse. If you are going to believe a kid who says they were abused you also have to accept the word of a kid who said their life was saved.

Show me proof that abuse occurs in programs. I'm waiting. No bullshit stories some spoiled kid made up to get back at their parents via guilt trip, I want hard proof.

That's ridiculous...There is so much proof, its impossible to know where to begin, also, people's testimony about abuse isn't negated because they are youth from wealthy families. God these conversations are so circular.

The point about ccm girl was, essentially, her view is that her experience was not abusive, therefore not all institutions are necessarily abusive, and that there are times when hospitalization or intervention of some sort is necessary. I don’t necessarily agree, but think that in some cases,say, after you chop up your family with a cleaver, or you lock yourself in your house for 2 years(howard hughes) there is a moral grey area, where having a pro forced-intrusion opinion doesn’t make you evil, and worthy of abuse.

I know a bit too much about emotional battery as a tactic to make someone say or do what you want. That’s justifiable when dealing with abusers, but not to a survivor who has a not necessarily correct opinion.

Exactly, because you have listened to those people.  The argument is that there are also thousands of kids who benefited from the programs.  You dont need to be an adult to need help or be an addict.  It happens to teenagers too.  These are the ones we are talking about not the ones who shouldnt be there.
Understand what I am saying?

Actually I AM one of these people. How about survivors are rape? Should we disregard their testimony, as well? How about holocaust survivors? Pfft?

I am also one of those kids who didn't need treatment. How do you justify an industry where anyone gets "treatment" whether they need it or not?

Any moment, all a parent needs to do is pick up a phone ,and say, "take my kid" and the kid is taken. Should there not be some sort of legal platform for a kid to protest this?

[TheWho]

Exactly, so what we know is you didnt benefit from it out of 20,000 kids a year who did.  This says the industry is working but not for everyone.  It also says the industry needs work and regulation may provide that help.

[Anonymous]

How about survivors are rape? Should we disregard their testimony, as well?

Do you think vaginal DNA swabs are just for fun?

[Nihilanthic]

The crux of the problem that people forget is kids in those places are prevented from getting help while inside there if they are being hurt.

... and none of those programs or any of the programs defenders can come up with a single good reason why that is so. People in JAIL can seek lawyers! But in programs, for some reason or some loophole, they have no rights.

That is why I'm trying to help them.

If they could reach out for help, if the world KNEW what was going on instead of it being hidden from us, if they could get out unless they were literally a danger to people if not locked up (which few if any kids in programs are) we wouldn't need to be here.

But, well, I'm sure more circular bullshit will try to dodge THAT little fact...

[Anonymous]

That is why I'm trying to help them.

It would be funny, if not so utterly pathetic. You have helped and never will help anybody.

[Nihilanthic]

*yawn*.

Wouldn't you wish I'd take your bait and incriminate yourself  :rofl:

[TheWho]

The crux of the problem that people forget is kids in those places are prevented from getting help while inside there if they are being hurt.

... and none of those programs or any of the programs defenders can come up with a single good reason why that is so. People in JAIL can seek lawyers! But in programs, for some reason or some loophole, they have no rights.

That is why I'm trying to help them.

If they could reach out for help, if the world KNEW what was going on instead of it being hidden from us, if they could get out unless they were literally a danger to people if not locked up (which few if any kids in programs are) we wouldn't need to be here.

But, well, I'm sure more circular bullshit will try to dodge THAT little fact...

Tell that to the 20,000 kids who benefit from these programs every year.  An extremely few number of kids feel they were hurt by the schools and changes should be made to prevent this from happening, but we need to look at all the kids not just the ones who didnt do well.

[Nihilanthic]

Tell that to the 20,000 kids who benefit from these programs every year.  An extremely few number of kids feel they were hurt by the schools and changes should be made to prevent this from happening, but we need to look at all the kids not just the ones who didnt do well.

An estimate that 20-50,000 kids in programs yearly is not 20-50,000 GRADUATES. The programs themselves admit the graduation rate is very, very low.

 :rofl: You're doing rather poorly there, mr. anonymous. You have nothing to back up your claims and the programs that claim they help people have nothing to back themselves up, they just do their damnedest to keep kids in programs away from the outside world.

I'll see to that.

 :lol:

[Anonymous]

Of course, we don't know how many kids are in these places. It could be 20, it could be 100 thou. T
hat's so sick...

[psy]

Tell that to the 20,000 kids who benefit from these programs every year.  An extremely few number of kids feel they were hurt by the schools and changes should be made to prevent this from happening, but we need to look at all the kids not just the ones who didnt do well.

An estimate that 20-50,000 kids in programs yearly is not 20-50,000 GRADUATES. The programs themselves admit the graduation rate is very, very low.

To whom are they talking when they say that?  In my experience programs claim impossibly high sucess statistics.

[Che Gookin]

I always sort of thought programs dodged around the issue by focusing on the graduates who don't relapse or kill themselves within the first couple of years rather than the overall number of graduates.

I found it sort of odd myself at 3 springs, but now that I think back on it I remember a big old kid who came back to visit. He had relapsed pretty badly and smoked about 20 pounds of weed or something crazy like that and went on a tear with half the neighboorhoods avaliable women, livestock, and god knows what else.

The sheer irony of his statement sort of leaves me numb when I recollect it today:

"Well it sort of struck me that if I kept this up I sure wasn't going to live up to any of my own expectations."

I said, "You mean the goals you wrote down before you graduated?"

He said, "No.. the dreams I used to have about what I'd do when I was free from here."

From what I gathered he is doing pretty good. He probably smokes a little weed now and then but seriously.. who gives a shit?

Did the program help him?

Well no.. but I'd wager to say the experience itself certainly illustrated to him that there was something better out there for him than hanging out with a bunch of wierdos out in the woods listening to a bunch of sob stories created from the imaginations of his fellow group members to impress the hell out of his treatment team.

So no being at a program missing out on a year and  a half of his life probably didn't do him much good socially or academically. But as a person I bet he is far stronger of a person for having come out of an experience he shouldn't have had thrown on him to begin with.

So my final response to him was:

"Well no matter what happens and where you are don't ever let anyone crush your dreams."

Now damn it if I had any sense I'd have slipped a pound of weed into the brownie mix in the dining hall, dropped some acid into the kool aid pitchers, and swapped the meds out for hits of E.. and promptly fled the place after turning in a resignation written out on toilet paper with crayons.