idea, inspired by over the gw. the grassroots effort thread.

[BuzzKill]

It almost as if the two program parents believe in the benefits and philosophy their children's programs as strongly as buzzkill believes in ALA. Why label these two parents as "brainwashed?"
It almost sounds as if the other two parents may have had their children in a WWASP program so, they MUST be "brainwashed!"

Let me try and explain the difference. The moms (and programparents in general) are incapable of critical thinking as regards "the program". They trust the program absolutely. They scoff at the suggestion any harm could be done or that the Program is in any way at fault for the trauma their children have endured.

They will abandon their children to the street with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a few dollars - not even enough to live a single day well fed and sheltered - because the Program tells them to.

They will shun and berate a child who is living responsibly, working hard and continuing their education - b/c the program tells them to.  

They all use a great deal of "loaded language" to reinforce their devotion to the programs teachings; and to dismiss as unenlightened and irrelevant all critics. Read Cults in Our Midst for an understanding of Loaded Language. (and LGAT)

They have a mindless devotion to the program - insisting it is wonderful and helped them - when in fact they have severed relationships that had been important to them prior to the program b/c the program told them to.

They do all this, b/c they have attended a series of LGAT seminars.  The program used this very effective form of Coercive Persuasion (brain-washing) to weaken their sense of self and remold them into faithful and mindlessly trusting program devotees.  They use a well understood recipe of sleep depravation; social stress; peer pressure; hyper breathing exercises and so on, and to effectively cause people to question and then abandon life long held values and ideas, and supplant them with those that will benefit the program. It works. It will continue to work, as long as the conditioning is reinforced with constant contact with the group.  Thus you have the parent "support" groups and the BBS and the encouragement to remain active win the seminars long after the teen is out of the program.

And - all of this is a big secrete. No one knows going in what will happen. No one is informed ahead of time what it is all about. And - the program itself is not what the parents are told up front. If they were told up front they would be horrified. However - after attendance in the seminars, and the reinforcement of so many other parents, they will accept almost anything the program suggest is acceptable.

Now, ALA had no parent support groups. There were no seminars. There was no effort to change the values or beliefs of the parents or students. We all went into it with similar beliefs. There were no secretes.  I assure you - plenty of parents had a powerful tendency to complain, and had a most telling lack of trust.  There was no attempt to instill blind trust or devotion to ALA or Craig. I had no problem telling Craig I disagreed with him on the occasions that I did. I had no problem thinking for myself about matters we were at odds on. I have no reason to think any of the parents - or the boys - ever did.

Things were so different there,  there is really no comparison. One young man was allowed to keep the family pets with him (and no one tossed them over a cliff either) The boys had jobs in town and attended the movies and local sporting events. They had open access to the phones and called home when they wanted. They had access to the internet and email. I often got email from my son with a link to some gadget on Ebay he wanted.  It was a totally different sort of situation.

No - it wasn't perfect. No - Craig isn't the Messiah. He is a man who makes mistakes and sometimes big ones ( like all men and women do) but I never saw any thing in his nature that would cause me concern for the kids. As far as I know my son never did. I think I would have heard, if he had.

If I were to hear that he, or any kid, had been hog tied; or beat up; or gang raped; or humiliated; or shunned; or forced to march in the Utah heat in winter clothes, with a 50 sand bag around his neck. . . I would be angry beyond words. You would all know all about my furry if such were the case.

I would not be insisting he'd be fine if he would just "work his program".  That's the difference. It is a Huge difference.

[Anonymous]

Was the reason for placement in ALA to try and undo any damage that might have occured at Tranquility Bay?  What was the point of the second placement if the first one went so horribly bad? Did all parents attend the seminars? How long does it take a parent to become brainwashed, are they brainwashed before sending their child away? How long before the first seminar?

[BuzzKill]

If your really interested in how its done, read Cults in Our Midst. Mean while, google LifeSpring + LGAT + cult.

[Anonymous]

Let me try and explain the difference. The moms (and programparents in general) are incapable of critical thinking as regards "the program". They trust the program absolutely. They scoff at the suggestion any harm could be done or that the Program is in any way at fault for the trauma their children have endured.

They will abandon their children to the street with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a few dollars - not even enough to live a single day well fed and sheltered - because the Program tells them to.

They will shun and berate a child who is living responsibly, working hard and continuing their education - b/c the program tells them to.  

They all use a great deal of "loaded language" to reinforce their devotion to the programs teachings; and to dismiss as unenlightened and irrelevant all critics. Read Cults in Our Midst for an understanding of Loaded Language. (and LGAT)

They have a mindless devotion to the program - insisting it is wonderful and helped them - when in fact they have severed relationships that had been important to them prior to the program b/c the program told them to

You are describing events that take place at the end or after a program placement. What about all the poor choices WWASPS program parents make before ever setting foot in a seminar? Those seem to be conveniently absent from this description.
 
Did you use an escort to send your son to Tranquility Bay? Did you lie to him in order to get him to go? I think that says a lot more about parents values and intentions than any of this after-the-fact revisionism.

[Anonymous]

If your really interested in how its done, read Cults in Our Midst. Mean while, google LifeSpring + LGAT + cult.

I don't need to read a book about something I've seen with my own eyes. You skipped over my questions but that's okay because I know some of the answers myself but I thought you'd like to chime in. I will put it in language you understand.

//////Was the reason for placement in ALA to try and undo any damage that might have occured at Tranquility Bay? ///////

? Why not just bring him home?


//////What was the point of the second placement if the first one went so horribly bad? //////////


?? Why not just bring him home?


///////Did all parents attend the seminars? ///////
 
I know the answer to this is no. So what is these parent's excuse? Are you better than them since you claim you were brainwashed, or were you ever brainwashed? Was your kid just caught up in the interim period while his parent was awaiting brainwashing? I don't understand. How long was your child at tranquility bay exactly? How many seminars did you go to? Do you consider yourself to be brainwashed by WWASPS at some point in your life?
 

///////How long does it take a parent to become brainwashed, are they brainwashed before sending their child away? ///////

I am skeptical of the idea that one weekend every two months is enough to turn a caring parent into an abusive one. I think the abusive parent was always there, and this just allows them to embrace a part of themselves previously hidden. Your lack of ability to explain this only hardens my belief of this.

//////How long before the first seminar?////////

It can be as long as two months or even longer sometimes. That's a lot of letters from the child stating abuse claims, and that they don't belong there and describing the place in detail.

[BuzzKill]

If your really interested in how its done, read Cults in Our Midst. Mean while, google LifeSpring + LGAT + cult.

I don't need to read a book about something I've seen with my own eyes. You skipped over my questions but that's okay because I know some of the answers myself

I thought that might be the case

//////Was the reason for placement in ALA to try and undo any damage that might have occured at Tranquility Bay? ///////

? Why not just bring him home?

I had my reasons.

/////What was the point of the second placement if the first one went so horribly bad? //////////

I didn't know it was so horribly bad at that point. I knew I didn't like what I was hearing and that I felt something was strange about it all; but I had no idea at that point what the truth was.

///////Did all parents attend the seminars? ///////

If they don't pull the kid first. And some pull their kid ASAP after the first seminar. But in most cases the seminars do the job they are designed to do and produce reinforcements for the faithful legions.
 

I know the answer to this is no.

Well not by much.

So what is these parent's excuse?

Any number of things.


 

Are you better than them since you claim you were brainwashed, or were you ever brainwashed?

It is an insidious process that begins with the first phone call. Before then, really, b/c the stress that has been building up as a consequence of so much family drama makes anyone a prime candidate for exploitive persuasion.

Your anxious and exhausted and looking for help and answers. When you get this helpful, well trained sales person on the phone telling you they have the answers - you want so much to believe it. This is all they need to begin the process.

Was your kid just caught up in the interim period while his parent was awaiting brainwashing?

I suppose thats one way to put it.

I don't understand. How long was your child at tranquility bay exactly?

Not at all. But we were involved with the program for about 4 months. A little less.

How many seminars did you go to?

None. I had some fore-knowledge as to what LGAT was; so that when I got the rules and considered the strange "sameness" of the seminars junkies, I realized what was going on. That's when I pulled my son.

Do you consider yourself to be brainwashed

I am aware, looking back, how influenced I was by the program's manipulation of my hopes and fears. I had been much influenced by the deadorinjail certainty of pulling a kid. I was afraid. It took all I could muster to do what seemed "right" even tho so much of my mind was struggling with great doubts.
 

///////How long does it take a parent to become brainwashed, are they brainwashed before sending their child away? ///////

I do believe the process begin very early on. Partly b/c as I mentioned - so many of the parents who call such a program are already very emotionally wrung out. Honestly, you can have no idea how horrible it is until your in those shoes. You can't sleep; when you do you have these stressed out nightmares; you sit and cry for days and weeks at a time maybe. The stress is crushing. And as I have pointed out before - stress makes people stupid. You can forfeit common sense, largely b/c your brain just isn't working very well at that point.

I am skeptical of the idea that one weekend every two months is enough to turn a caring parent into an abusive one.

Its not just a week end away. It is a well organized event, designed to use basic human psychology against the group, to breakdown them down and then rebuild to unquestioningly trust the program. They will often eventually come to identify very strongly with the program, to the point the program is a big part of who they are. They can feel attacked and personally threatened by any negative comment about "the program" - just like any other cult member. It works exactly the same way.

I think the abusive parent was always there, and this just allows them to embrace a part of themselves previously hidden. Your lack of ability to explain this only hardens my belief of this.

Well I am not saying your wrong. I actually tend to agree that all persons have great potential for selfishness and spite and any number of other unpleasant and destructive traits. That having been said, I do believe the "training" that take place in LGAT makes persons who have been decent enough folks, into boorish, selfish ass holes, who think they are "truthful" and "joyful".

/////How long before the first seminar?////////

It can be as long as two months or even longer sometimes.

Sure, it varies. I'd guess anywhere from a week, to 8 weeks or so - on average.

That's a lot of letters from the child stating abuse claims, and that they don't belong there and describing the place in detail.

Not as much as you'd think. A handful of letters at most. All censored. And remember, they begin the process of conditioning the parents from the first phone call - when they tell them to not worry when they get upsetting letters. The kids often write horrible things in an attempt to manipulate the parents so they can come home. All this must be ignored. This message is hammered on over and over and over. This is why the parents Laugh like hyenas at the idea anyone would believe the kids who report sexual assault.

Actually, this is one of the things that worried me all along. If the parents won't believe the kids - then who could they turn to in the case of real abuse? The answer? No one.  That's part of the evil genius of the system.

[Anonymous]

we were involved with the program for about 4 months. A little less.

How many seminars did you go to?

None. I had some fore-knowledge as to what LGAT was; so that when I got the rules and considered the strange "sameness" of the seminars junkies, I realized what was going on. That's when I pulled my son.

/////How long before the first seminar?////////

It can be as long as two months or even longer sometimes.

Sure, it varies. I'd guess anywhere from a week, to 8 weeks or so - on average.

This is what I don't understand, the timeline of brainwashing. You said you didn't attend the seminar, only after you got the rules you decided to pull your kid. Shouldn't that have been a week to eight weeks then? Why did it take four months?


These questions were overlooked I think:

Did you use an escort to send your son to Tranquility Bay? Did you lie to him in order to get him to go?

[BuzzKill]

You are describing events that take place at the end or after a program placement.

The significance of this is that in the beginning, most of them would never dream of treating their child in such a cold hearted and callous manner. That is a direct result of the Programming.

What about all the poor choices WWASPS program parents make before ever setting foot in a seminar? Those seem to be conveniently absent from this description.

People make mistakes and do dumb things. Sometimes they are selfish and hateful, even when they are usually kind and generous.
But as I explained above - the stress of worrying about a child who is spinning out of control is horrible, and it no doubt causes many poor choices to be made.  

Did you use an escort to send your son to Tranquility Bay? Did you lie to him in order to get him to go?

Why do you think we were involved with Tranquility bay?
But no, I didn't lie to my son; although I know this is extremely common.  I told him exactly what we were going to do if he kept pushing. He did and we did.

I think that says a lot more about parents values and intentions than any of this after-the-fact revisionism.

Well sure - I understand, I think, why you feel that way. But you are maybe a bit to quick to damn the parents with out considering the role the teens themselves play in all this.

I really do understand the anger and hostility toward the parents. I have had the experience of hearing a whole room full of people gasp  in horror after explaining I am one of the parents. But its not as if the teens are blameless innocence.

Personally, I think the blame for the horror of the realities of syanon based "therapy" falls directly at the feet of those who own and operate these facilities; as well as the supporting cast of characters - the crooked ed cons. The escort services. Even the finance companies. They are exploiting hurting families to enrich themselves, with no regaud for the lifelong damage being done to persons and relationships. Its truly evil in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

The significance of this is that in the beginning, most of them would never dream of treating their child in such a cold hearted and callous manner. That is a direct result of the Programming.

What about programs like Benchmark that also gives kids exit plans, are those parents brainwashed as well? What about all the other abusive programs, the majority that exist? They have everything WWASPS has , and in many cases, more. Do all these parents brainwash themselves independently? Or is a few telephone calls enough to completely change one's world view and value system and how they treat their offspring?

Why do you think we were involved with Tranquility bay?
But no, I didn't lie to my son; although I know this is extremely common.  I told him exactly what we were going to do if he kept pushing. He did and we did.

So you threatened your kid with a program before you sent him away?

How long exactly did you know about the program you sent him to since you knew "exactly what we were going to do"? That suggests you had time to plan.

Do you think it's okay for parents to tell their kids if they don't do what they say they will send them to abusive programs via escort?

If I tell my spouse I won't hit her as long as she looks pretty and doesn't make me mad, does that make it okay?

I
Well sure - I understand, I think, why you feel that way. But you are maybe a bit to quick to damn the parents with out considering the role the teens themselves play in all this.

What role did your son have, did he review the various WWASP facilities with you and help choose one? Did he help pick the escort?

If your kid was having problems, there are a myriad of better choices you could make. it's not your kid's fault that their parent sought to have them imprisoned in an abusive facility. That one lays solely with you, the parent.

During the youth seminars, they spend the entire time trying to convince the kid that it's their fault they ended up in a program. They force the children to blame themselves fully, even if they are just a victim of sexual abuse or something. That is a perverse thing to do to youth, and your statement does the same thing. You actually believe that kids bring this treatment onto themselves.  That if the had just been good kids parents wouldn't need to seek out places like this and they wouldn't be abused. I know. I've heard it all before and it's disgusting to suggest this because it couldn't be further from the truth.

I really do understand the anger and hostility toward the parents. I have had the experience of hearing a whole room full of people gasp  in horror after explaining I am one of the parents. But its not as if the teens are blameless innocence.

Actually, most of the kids in WWASPS programs are blamelessly innocent. Their only crime was being molested by an uncle and telling someone, having divorced parents who want to dump them so they can start new families, or the actual few that engaged in typical teenager hooliganism and having reactionary parents. The truth is most of the teens in these places are innocent , unlucky enough to have parents who think it's a good idea to send them away to be changed. Not everyone searches for a place that offers to change their child in significant ways.

Personally, I think the blame for the horror of the realities of syanon based "therapy" falls directly at the feet of those who own and operate these facilities; as well as the supporting cast of characters - the crooked ed cons. The escort services. Even the finance companies. They are exploiting hurting families to enrich themselves, with no regaud for the lifelong damage being done to persons and relationships. Its truly evil in my opinion.

Do all these companies brainwash parents?  These services are utilized by parents in the very beginning of placement, before any program or kidnap company has time to brainwash a parent. What accounts for this?

 At what point were you brainwashed?

- You threaten your kid with program placement in exact detail
- You carry out your threat and have your kid kidnapped and sent to facility
- You wait four months before going to your first seminar
- Your familiarity with LGAT causes you to get cold feet and you pull your kid
- You place your kid in another program that uses similar methods

If you were familiar with LGAT technique before going to a seminar, then why didn't you recognize the program was abusive earlier?

If you threatened your child with your "exact" plan of action, didn't you have time to plan his placement?

Why did it take four months to go to your first seminar?

The significance of this is that in the beginning, most of them would never dream of treating their child in such a cold hearted and callous manner. That is a direct result of the Programming.

This quote right cuts to the heart of the matter. Don't you realize the most cold hearted and callous act that takes place is the very first one?

You were never programmed when you employed the services and companies you blame.

You chose a cold hearted and callous program before you even knew there were seminars.

You sought out WWASPS , threatened your son with it, and carried out that threat.

Even TheWho had more sense than to send his child to WWASPS and then blame them for it.

[BuzzKill]

Hi again. Its a bit to late and I'm a bit to tired for a detailed response. I did want to point out one thing tho. The parents are lied to. They do not send their teens into these hellish situations with any idea of the realities. Its true that today there is plenty of information available, if a parent looks for it. But this was not always the case. And even now, a parent has to have some idea that there are horrible facilities to even be suspicious of the spiel they get from the sales persons. These programs sell the parents what ever it is they are looking for: an advanced and progressive school; a compassionate successful drug rehab; an effective special education program; a "challenging" out door experience; a vacation from the family drama - What ever it is, they sell it to you, and your glad to buy it, b./c you feel you have to do something - and your glad you've found something that even might be helpful, when you have no idea of the kind of harm that can be done.  

I can't explain Benchmark or many of the others. It seems to me from what I hear about the similar parental response, that they are at least powerfully influenced by the facility staff (who they think are the "experts') and the other parents who are constantly re-enforcing the idea that they are doing the right thing. This seems to have been the case with Straight and the many related spin offs.

I believe some programs bring this is much greater effect with the use of the seminars and support groups and forums and so on; but the general effect seems attainable by any program large enough to group the parents and get them re-enforcing the conditioning with each other. I mean, this is how cult growth works.  These Syanon based programs are all very cult like - just like the "treatment" cult they all sprang from.  

I have to say, I am always a little uncomfortable "debating" a ex-program student in a way that seems to be an attempt to justify the betrayal and abandonment they have experienced. That is not my goal here. However, If I could help you understand why *I* think the parents are brainwashed; and if that might help you see that this is possibly the case - maybe you would feel somewhat less betrayed - and that would be a good thing. But I am not in any way trying to invalidate what you experienced and how you feel about it.

You asked earlier if I thought I was somehow "better than". . .
No - not at all. I do think I am lucky. Lucky to have had some prior education with regard to how cults operate, and specifically what LGAT is, and how it works. I suppose this is why I feel so strongly that getting the public widely educated along these lines, will help a lot in this fight to stop the abuse.

Oh, BTW - please read again who I blame. You'll not find the kids mentioned.  I feel the teens are often responsible for the problems that result in parents looking for answers outside the home - and I know the parents are responsible for not doing the kind of research we here have all grown so accustomed to doing - but I blame the perpetrators of the abuse, for the abuse.

[Anonymous]

You know what, Buzzkill? Watching you dance around this guy is disturbing and slightly Who-like. I wanted to take your side, I really did, but in the end I seriously hope your kid snaps one day and rips your motherfucking throat out.

[psy]

Hi again. Its a bit to late and I'm a bit to tired for a detailed response. I did want to point out one thing tho. The parents are lied to. They do not send their teens into these hellish situations with any idea of the realities. Its true that today there is plenty of information available, if a parent looks for it. But this was not always the case. And even now, a parent has to have some idea that there are horrible facilities to even be suspicious of the spiel they get from the sales persons. These programs sell the parents what ever it is they are looking for: an advanced and progressive school; a compassionate successful drug rehab; an effective special education program; a "challenging" out door experience; a vacation from the family drama - What ever it is, they sell it to you, and your glad to buy it, b./c you feel you have to do something - and your glad you've found something that even might be helpful, when you have no idea of the kind of harm that can be done.  

I can't explain Benchmark or many of the others. It seems to me from what I hear about the similar parental response, that they are at least powerfully influenced by the facility staff (who they think are the "experts') and the other parents who are constantly re-enforcing the idea that they are doing the right thing. This seems to have been the case with Straight and the many related spin offs.

I believe some programs bring this is much greater effect with the use of the seminars and support groups and forums and so on; but the general effect seems attainable by any program large enough to group the parents and get them re-enforcing the conditioning with each other. I mean, this is how cult growth works.  These Syanon based programs are all very cult like - just like the "treatment" cult they all sprang from.  

I have to say, I am always a little uncomfortable "debating" a ex-program student in a way that seems to be an attempt to justify the betrayal and abandonment they have experienced. That is not my goal here. However, If I could help you understand why *I* think the parents are brainwashed; and if that might help you see that this is possibly the case - maybe you would feel somewhat less betrayed - and that would be a good thing. But I am not in any way trying to invalidate what you experienced and how you feel about it.

You asked earlier if I thought I was somehow "better than". . .
No - not at all. I do think I am lucky. Lucky to have had some prior education with regard to how cults operate, and specifically what LGAT is, and how it works. I suppose this is why I feel so strongly that getting the public widely educated along these lines, will help a lot in this fight to stop the abuse.

Oh, BTW - please read again who I blame. You'll not find the kids mentioned.  I feel the teens are often responsible for the problems that result in parents looking for answers outside the home - and I know the parents are responsible for not doing the kind of research we here have all grown so accustomed to doing - but I blame the perpetrators of the abuse, for the abuse.

To the above Guest poster: (not Buzz) that was fucked up.  Buzz is telling the truth about what a parent goes through... It's similar to what went on with my parents: they were conned.

[Che Gookin]

As much as I dislike the chain of events as Buzzkill describes them as they do involve the unwilling detaining of a youth I do recognize that this didn't happen just yesterday.

Had it happened yesterday a greater claim could be made for saying that buzzkill did in fact participate in the abuse of her son not once, but twice. However, these events happened quite sometime ago. It needs to be acknowledged that Buzzkill operated in an environment where information about programmes was readily unavailable.

A simple keyword search on google wouldn't have turned up a great deal of useful information. Operating in this vacuum of information Buzzkill could only sort of fumble her way through the situation under her own guidance.

I think it is pretty remarkable that she managed to eventually come to the conclusions that she did and withdrew her son from ALA as well. In the end that is all that really counts.

Care without consent doesn't deserve a microspeck of my respect, but even I came to that conclusion over time and with the right information.

[Anonymous]

Differences between Buzzkill and The Who

Buzzkill spends considerable time and Money doing everything she can to try and keep kids out of programs. This is something to be considered because if more people acted in a practical way instead of just attacking every parent desperate or stupid enough to send their kid to this industry it would have much less power.
The Who spends considerable time hawking Aspen Education and deliberately being horrible about and to kids who have been through this hell.

Buzzkill was willing to listen to her son and has spent much time and effort reconnecting with him. She respects his privacy by not giving every gory detail on a widely read forum.
The who tells us all about his kid's alleged crimes and misdemeanors. Tell it fuckin all brother!

In spite of some funny religious ideas, Buzzkill has repeatedly said that while ALA was apparently not abusive to her son she would not recommend it or any program because she does not know what it is now like. She is not often the one to bring up ALA because she is not trying to sell it. he has also stated on numerous occasions that because her son says the experience was positive does not mean that she would recommend any program. There is a difference between refusing to lie when asked a direct question and hawking a program. Having said that I pity the kid who ends up there but who does not believe in hardcore Ned Flanders Christianity! her son was lucky to share her wacky religious ideas.  

The Who constantly talks of both of the shit pits he sent his daughter to as if they are a panacea. He continually invalidates the views of program kids  with made up stats and other nonsense without being asked. He is a prick

[Anonymous]

Now tell me the difference between Buzzkill and Sue Scheff or Isabelle Zehnder.