Winning The Culture War

[Froderik]

Once again this thread has gone WAY off track.. fuckers.. lol..

[TheWho]

Once again this thread has gone WAY off track.. fuckers.. lol..

Not really, with the exception of the porn that someone posted, the conversation has been on TBS and effecting changes.  Read back to my previous 2 posts.

[TheWho]

thewho: again, look up the stanford prison experiment. abuse, or more specifically sadism, has been studied and quantified. yet programs and parents ignore the data, partially because it's inconvenient and partially beacuse the schools and media (semblers) dont want that kind of information popping up on CNN, time mag, or the first page of google.

    I have found it difficult to compare “The Stanford prisonâ€

[Anonymous]

Right...  So the basic idea is to randomly plant seeds all over the place.  If everybody who smoked did this, enforcement of prohibition would become untenable.

Another fun thing you can do to help fuck with prohibitionist types is to call the "Anonymous Snitch Line" in your locale and inform them about the marijuana plants growing in the back yard of the house belonging to the local chief of police, the mayor, program parents, and other vocal prohibitionists.  Tell them about the meth lab in the garage, too.

[Froderik]

Another fun thing you can do to help fuck with prohibitionist types is to call the "Anonymous Snitch Line" in your locale and inform them about the marijuana plants growing in the back yard of the house belonging to the local chief of police, the mayor, program parents, and other vocal prohibitionists.  Tell them about the meth lab in the garage, too.

:rofl: :tup:

[psy]

Right...  So the basic idea is to randomly plant seeds all over the place.  If everybody who smoked did this, enforcement of prohibition would become untenable.

Another fun thing you can do to help fuck with prohibitionist types is to call the "Anonymous Snitch Line" in your locale and inform them about the marijuana plants growing in the back yard of the house belonging to the local chief of police, the mayor, program parents, and other vocal prohibitionists.  Tell them about the meth lab in the garage, too.

::roflmao::  ::roflmao::  ::roflmao::  ::roflmao::

[Antigen]

Another fun thing you can do to help fuck with prohibitionist types is to call the "Anonymous Snitch Line" in your locale and inform them about the marijuana plants growing in the back yard of the house belonging to the local chief of police, the mayor, program parents, and other vocal prohibitionists.  Tell them about the meth lab in the garage, too.

I was gonna say this.... but I got high. lol

The [Stanford] experiment was widely criticized for being unscientific. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the experiment was totally flawed, but I just don’t think it can be used in comparison to TBS’s or wilderness.

Except that people placed in this sort of unscientific, contrived, extreme totalitarian experiment keep having various kinds of breakdowns and psyche troubles. And, for some damned reason, in neither  case do the people running the show ever learn from experience and come to expect the inevitable.

Another often made comparison is to the methods used to break and control pows of overt war (as opposed to culture war). Two major differences there, that I know of. First, in an overt war, all parties are aware that the captors really don't care if the captives die whereas the troubled parent industry has to at least hold up the appearance, however implausible, that they're first interest is the welfare of the captive. At least to the parents and public and, to some extent, themselves. The captives don't have to be in on that illusion. In fact it helps the process if they're convinced that they may very well die or suffer serious permanent harm (need not be physical). That's part of the definition of torture.

The other is, of course, that POWs of overt war can buoy their spirits with the knowledge that their families back home are on their side. They never get the "Having a blast spending your college fund in Hawaii without you. Haven't missed you at all. Now comply with your captors and maybe we'll be willing to talk to you again some day."

[webdiva]

I was gonna say this.... but I got high. lol

There's a really good song about people who have this problem!  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

[TheWho]

Except that people placed in this sort of unscientific, contrived, extreme totalitarian experiment keep having various kinds of breakdowns and psyche troubles. And, for some damned reason, in neither case do the people running the show ever learn from experience and come to expect the inevitable.

You are talking about a very small percentage of the kids that attend.  Granted maybe these kids should not have been placed at the particular school or maybe the breakdowns or psyche trouble were inevitable (with or without a program).  I agree that the schools need to continue to get better at screening for students who will succeed/benefit from their program and turn others away or recommend a different alternative.

Another often made comparison is to the methods used to break and control pows of overt war (as opposed to culture war). Two major differences there, that I know of. First, in an overt war, all parties are aware that the captors really don't care if the captives die whereas the troubled parent industry has to at least hold up the appearance, however implausible, that they're first interest is the welfare of the captive. At least to the parents and public and, to some extent, themselves. The captives don't have to be in on that illusion. In fact it helps the process if they're convinced that they may very well die or suffer serious permanent harm (need not be physical). That's part of the definition of torture.

Unless the kids feel at a total loss of ever getting out alive then none of this applies.  The kids are not even remotely put in a position where they feel captive, they all know if things get tough they can just walk away and keep going or if they run more than once or try to have sex with someone they are out on their ass and sent home on the next plane (POWS don’t have that option)…….of course what happens next?  They could be sent to a more strict program, but more often than not the parents would try better options before placing them back into the local school program, sign them up for a new therapist and hope they can get thru it.  

The other is, of course, that POWs of overt war can buoy their spirits with the knowledge that their families back home are on their side. They never get the "Having a blast spending your college fund in Hawaii without you. Haven't missed you at all. Now comply with your captors and maybe we'll be willing to talk to you again some day."

I am sure we can find the one staff member who thrives on the power position and crosses the line or the parent who cashes in the college fund and heads out to Hawaii for 14 months, but these are very extreme cases.
In order to help someone you need to be able to understand (or try to understand) what they are going thru and I will be the first one to admit that understanding some of these kids during their teenage years is a challenge, but I feel I am open minded and I continue to try…… but what I do understand are the parents and it is clear that many here on fornits continue to totally miss what they are going thru, the parents are not tossing their kids into these places to be fixed and then heading out to party and I think this may be the reason for many here to have such animosity towards them.

[Anonymous]

What the helll are you talking about, Who?  Kids at Straight, AARC, Pathway, KIDS, all the wilderness programs, all the WWASP facilities but especially the foreign ones, the Christian programs like New Horizons and many, many others I could name CANNOT walk away.

They often feel as though there is no way out but death.  And the aftermath affects a very significant proportion of kids-- it's impossible to measure the exact proportion without studies, but once you know that a method has a potential to harm, you don't keep practicing it, especially when there are safer, less invasive methods that ARE proven safe and effective.

[Anonymous]

My Bologna has a first name,
It's O-S-C-A-R.
My bologna has a second name,
It's M-A-Y-E-R.
Oh I love to eat it everyday,
And if you ask me why say,
Cause' Oscar Mayer has a way with B-O-L-O-G-N-A!!!!

[TheWho]

What the helll are you talking about, Who?  Kids at Straight, AARC, Pathway, KIDS, all the wilderness programs, all the WWASP facilities but especially the foreign ones, the Christian programs like New Horizons and many, many others I could name CANNOT walk away.

They often feel as though there is no way out but death.  And the aftermath affects a very significant proportion of kids-- it's impossible to measure the exact proportion without studies, but once you know that a method has a potential to harm, you don't keep practicing it, especially when there are safer, less invasive methods that ARE proven safe and effective.

You are generalizing,  I know first hand that this isnt true.  My daughter decided to run away from ASR and she did.  The counselors followed her and talked to her and finally decided to return.  Upon her return the school called me and informed me of what happened and my daughter and I spoke that afternoon.
If she ran a second time she would be kicked out....... there were many other ways to be sent home, drugs, having sex etc.  So what you are saying isnt true, unless it is possible that all schools are not the same.

[TheWho]

My Bologna has a first name,
It's O-S-C-A-R.
My bologna has a second name,
It's M-A-Y-E-R.
Oh I love to eat it everyday,
And if you ask me why say,
Cause' Oscar Mayer has a way with B-O-L-O-G-N-A!!!!

No, thats not it, I think the song they were trying to think of was:

Because I got high by Afroman

It went something like this:

I wasn't gonna give my kid sister heroin but then I got high
I knew it was wrong and she was only in preschool but I was high
(La da da da da da da da da)
Now I am an only child and I know why (why man) yeah hey

'Cos I got high
'Cos I got high
'Cos I got high
'Cos I got high
(La da da da da da da da da)

I was gonna tell my parents I needed to borrow their car until I got high
I was gonna write to the parents kid that I ran over but then I got high
Now the escort service is here and I know why (why man) yeah hey

'Cos I got high
'Cos I got high
'Cos I got high
'Cos I got high
(La da da da da da da da da)

[Anonymous]

The kids are not even remotely put in a position where they feel captive

oh hi im in ur thread with a dose of reality

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60

There were more kids who were dangers to themselves. I honestly think ASR is very lucky in that no one has succeeded in committing suicide. I can tell you first hand that for someone with major depression ASR could drive you past breaking point easily. It seemed like they pick and chose who they took seriously about being suicidal. I was not taken seriously, and had my roommate not been in the room one day, I may well have taken my life. I do not say that to evoke pity or anything else like that, and I was not using it to "manipulate" ( a favorite ASR term)

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60
Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
1) What is self-study?

2) Describe this Escorting more please?

3) Why was a student doing the escorting of a self-harming/suicidal resident and not a staff member?


A self study was the worst of the three major consequences. (reflection, challenge, self study). You had work projects, all free time was spent at your table, facing the wall. Lots of writing assignments. Loss of all privileges. Standing during all meetings. You most likely had strict bans

Basically I had to take her back to the dorm and be with her while she gathered up her things and changed, etc. I don't remember if she showered or not. I was basically there to make sure she didn't attempt again.

I don't know why they had me do it. I was "trusted" at that point, and honestly... probably a better choice than some of the staff.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=15
yes, they did. to a large degree. Dean Kent (the staff mentioned in the article) was gone by the time i had arrived. (he was there in 1997, and i got to ASR in Cummington, MA on January 5th of 1998) i had heard from other students about Dean, that he was a really nice guy but fired b/c he'd called DSS on them. Brett Carey was still the Dean of Student Life when i arrived, and his wife Lisa also helped in the fitness department & was pregnant when i first arrived. They had 2 other daughters, Madison & Carly. The whole thought was a bit frightening, because when we had the 2 hour group "therapy" sessions 2 times a week, they were harsh and abusive to say the least. All of us students would be split into 2 groups, and we'd be rounded up in a circle to get screamed at, belittled and dehumanized. They called it "confrontational", although it was more like verbal abuse and intentional slaughtering.
i was very afraid while i was there, as a student with an extensive sexual abuse history involving rape & incest, i was constantly the target of this slaughtering, esp. b/c i was overweight at the time. needless to say, i left ASR with anorexia some 19 months later.
Brett & other students were all allowed to scream vulgarities at you, called you a "fat bitch, slut," and all. at the age of 15 i learned the word "dildo" while playing scrabble with Brett. One of my roomates claimed that Brett had forced her into sexual operations.
Most of all, it was excusable for students to haze each other.
It was almost looked at as funny. One Staff named Kristen Merhoff gave me funny looks and made sarcastic and patronizing comments when i'd opened up to her about my eating disorder.
Later on, a staff named Amy Robichaud would scream at me for ruining my life, pushing everyone away, talking about how i was a disasterous person, unworthy of being loved. To say the least, she was an abusive person, much alike a person in the throws of an addiction like alchoholism & drug addictions, both of which she admittedly had. There was a great deal of favoritism there, even staff who seemed to want to gain the approval of certain students.
The labor & sleep deprivation that was mentioned in the article is most likely in reference to the "Lifesteps". These were so called "workshops" it was mandatory for all students to attend. Staff and students would be expected to open up there deepest and most unknown
secrets for the sake of "growing". It's true, there was little sleeping allowed & often i myself left feeling shamed & ridiculed.
i was one of the main targets in that school the entire time i was there, a target of hazing & was even blamed for a student breaking into the med office and comsuming large quantities of my prescriptions. For the first 5 months i was there, you could litterally leave, go smoke 1/2 a pack of cigarettes, drop a couple tabs of acid, take like 5 hits off a joint come back & they wouldn't even realize it.
ASR is, to say the least, a very very fucked up place. i have several more things to say, but this whole thing would take eons.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=30

I am a former student at ASR. I was in the first peer group, 97-98. My experience there haunts me to this day. I have read many articles that refer to the "old staff" and "new staff". I cannot speak for the way ASR is run now, being 2004, but I can speak for how it was run in 97 and 98. Let me start by saying that I am not an angry, defiant kid who is trying to start trouble for ASR. I have graduated high school and am about to graduate college and enter law school. I don't get into trouble, I am a productive member of society, and want people to know the truth. We were badgered, belittled, sworn at, made to stay up all night during "life steps" and given only small rations of food, had all calls to our parents monitored by staff and had the phone hung up on us if we tried to complain to our parents about these things, scrutinized and humiliated on a daily basis. Our mail was read, staff lost their voices by yelling so loudly at us, I personally was called a "slut", a rich little Daddysgirl, a doormat, told my dad tried to buy my love with money, made to discuss personal sexual and private experiences in group sessions with other peers, made to write a ten page paper by hand about what my "issues" were, and if the staff didn't like it, I started over ( this was because I was too close to my friend there, and they put us on bans so we couldn't talk to each other). People, whomever wants to hear specific stories about all of these things, I would be more than happy to share with you!!! email me at gilligansisland636@hotmail.com i bet i can help you get her out of there


I also graduated from ASR very recently on August the 6th. And I can tell you right now that any kid who complained, their parents were manipulated right out of believing them. There was extreme emotional abuse there, and the only reason anyone's behavior was modified was because they were scared shitless of staying there longer or going to a worse program. We were so scared, your own friends turned against you and you couldnt trust them. The group sessions were awful. One of my friends who had issues with sleeping around was in group and the counselor in the room told her that she might as well keep a mattress tied to her back. Daily, I heard awful things about myself and everyday I was just so sad. Places like this are awful and they need to be stopped. ASR isnt even the worst of them but they all need to go.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=60

I am a an ASR graduate. I graduated in October of 03. At the end of the program I believed that ASR had done a lot for me. Looking back I am shocked that I ever thought that. I was made to turn against my friends and turn them in for the slightest rule breaking (for example listening to music). In group we were often degraded and yelled at, supposedly to make us better. Several times I was suicidal and instead of worrying they told me I was lying and being manipulative. In one group eveyone was allowed to go around and say their judgements against everyone else things like "youre a fat slut". That group was horrible. You were scared into being good and behaving. I'm not sure why I thought this place was so great, I feel as if I was brainwashed in a way.
The wilderness experience was horrible. I spent over 40 days in the outdoors being punished for any little thing we did wrong. My first day I had to run 20 minutes and when I stopped the counselers screamed at me and when i vomited they didnt care. just told me i shouldt have drank so muich water.

[Anonymous]