Author Topic: How Do Survivors Feel About Their Parents?  (Read 5603 times)

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Offline spots

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How Do Survivors Feel About Their Parents?
« on: May 25, 2003, 11:20:00 PM »
How are things when you get home?  If you come home "early" (pre-graduation), is it because your parents finally figured out what was happening, or something else (like running out of money)?  I can imagine eventual estrangement if the parents knew or suspected the conditions were bad, but kept kids in the program anyway.  However, I'm surprised at how little anger I really see in survivors. What percentage of parents knew and thought tough love was a good thing, and how many simply didn't know details?  Before the internet, or even now, it is hard to find info such as is on this board. Did you all live in fear of "return"?  How long before you begin to think logically; how long before the brainwashing "washes out"?

Basically, to those who are now free, how do you feel?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2003, 12:07:00 AM »
Spots, perhaps you will have an answer to your  :question: soon :exclaim:

 :wink:
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Offline anon

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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2003, 10:46:00 AM »
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2003, 04:12:00 PM »
Does WWASP carry on the "The first and most impotant rule" cunard? In Seed, Straight and follow-on programs, the austensible "First and most important rule" is Honesty. But honesty, in cult parlance, is redefined to mean something completely different.

An honest parent knows that, no matter how disturbing your kids' behavior may be to you; no matter how mysterious and distant they may get, you could always be dead wrong in your assumptions about what they really think, what they'll do next or how it will all turn out.

Worried because your kid suddenly thinks neo-nazi skinheads are the coolest thing since Elvis? You're just dead certain he'll do something to mess up the rest of his life if you don't do something to intervene? Bull puckey! As an adult with life experience and having had time to reflect on youthful indiscretion, all you really know is that he might make mistakes that he'll regret forever. How do you know that? Well, you did, didn't you? And you learned from them and you managed to pull your shit together and become a responsible adult, just like most everyone else does.

When a kid reaches a certain level of maturity, they do not want and (brace yourself! this is a bitter pill to swollow) they do not NEED your help. In fact, the more you interfere without invitation, the easier it is for them to blame you for bad results and push you further away in an effort to prove it was all your fault things went bad.

There's a subtle difference in tone and tennor between "Aw Mom, but I don't want to brush my teeth!" and "It's none of your damned business who my friends are! All you do is condemn them!"

In the first case you know, really, they hate getting cavities more than you hate paying for them and they really do want you to take responsibility because they know the facts and they know you're right. In the second case they really don't know the outcome and, if you're completely honest with yourself about it, you don't either.

What I wouldn't give to have figured that out a few years ago! By the time I figured out that my kid had to figure out her new bestest friends for herself, our relationship was such a shipwreck that she barely spoke to me. I earned back the priviledge of being included in her life by not commenting or speculating on any aspect of her life without her invitation. She'd call me for family recipies, medical advice or just to hear a friendly voice. One day, she looked around and realized that all these people who'd she thought were better than family were turning into a bunch of coke-heads and junkies. Her tuition/car money was gone on this and then the next "emergency" and there wasn't a damned one of them who she could count on to really help when Mr. Wonderful got rough with her.

Without a word to us about her troubles, she got on a bus for home when she was good and damned well ready to do it. As no one can know the mind of another, I don't know what would have happened if I'd played it differently early on. But it seems obvious to me that she would have seen these idiots for what they are a whole lot sooner if I hadn't drawn that line in the sand as I did. I don't mean I should have encouraged her involvement w/ these people. Just that I should have been a little more tactful, less insulting and less combative about it. I should have had more faith in my kid.

When I quit trying to control my daughter and shove advice on her that she hadn't asked for, she started asking me for advice again. Now that she's home again, that has not changed. I'm extremely proud of her for having the backbone to take charge of her own situation and for having learned from her mistakes like an adult.

People don't just wake up one day and decide it's a wonderful idea to call in a couple of Marines (no such thing as an exMarine, just ask one) to come in with shackles and drugs to take their kid by force to a place where you will not be allowed to see or speak to them and about which there are constant allagations of cruelty, fraud and brainwashing. It takes some conditioning to get to that point.

Take everything the Partnership for a Drug Free America and all the TOUGHLOVE hategroups tell you turn it upside down and play it backward.

Don't invade your kids' privacy. They need it. Don't fall for the false notion that this is some kind of battle and that you and your kids are destined to be on opposing sides. You're not. You want them to grow up to be responsible, capable and happy adults. That's what they want. They will make mistakes. How else does anyone ever learn anything? But they'll make some calls better than yours, too. That katty girl I disliked very much as I watched her manipulate and hurt my daughter years ago also grew out of her teen angst and turned out to be the most decent, understanding and true friend a kid could ever have. Thank GOD my kid knew better than to always do what Mommy says wrt choosing her friends!

Your kid doesn't owe you anything yet. Wait till you're old and senile and, if you've earned it, they'll be plenty busy taking care of your needs. Right now, it's not apropriate to be angry with our kids when they make mistakes that primarily effect themselves? Are you embarrassed of your kids? Just take a moment and reflect on all the times and circumstances when you've embarrassed them; intentionally or not.

It's apropriate to be angry when your kid does a real harm to you, like stealing from you or something. It's not a good idea to make all out war against your own kin or to exact revenge. What you really want is for the kid to realize their mistake, learn from it and go on to make new and more interesting mistakes. That's what they want too.

It's also inapropriate and just plain foolish to expect an immiture kid to behave as an adult. Remember that, most of the time, they don't think they need you at all for any reason. Sure, deep down they know the truth. But that's just not on their primary agenda right now.

You always hurt the ones you love because, deep down, you know they'll always be there for you. When you turn your "problem" over to people who will force your will on your kid in ways that would be felonies if you did the same things, you betray that sacred trust. You will never fully regain it, ever, don't kid yourself. The best you can hope for is to patch things up somewhat at some future date.

As adults, we know that that angry kid who doesn't want anything to do with us right now will want and need safe harbour and affection and help later. You're the one who has to use all the experience, intelligence and wisdom you can muster to not let any momentary battle come between you in such a profound way as to compromise that relationship because you're the one who understands in real terms how important it really is.

Talk to your kids when they want to talk to you about what they want to talk about. Come up with ideas. If they hate school, whether you agree or even understand the reasons they give you for hating it, don't just but your foot down (on their neck) and insist that they suck it up like you did. Look into duel enrolement, homeschooling, peace core, a move to a different school district, see if they want to go live with relatives, find out every decent option for solving the problem they want solved.

Don't ever quit reminding them, in ways both subtle and gross, that you really are on their side. It's so damned easy for them to forget sometimes and so hard to regain that trust once lost.

Save our planet; it's the only one with chocolate!

--Andi, domestic goddess

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2003, 03:04:00 AM »
Antigen - Yes, letting teens grow up, make mistakes, feel their wings, are all a normal part of growing up.  WHen it's not normal is when there is NO communication other than obscenities, NO respect for boundaries, stealing, sneaking, lying, daily drug use, not just skipping school, but failing miserably, being told that ADD is a disability and that results in behavior that is not just out of control, but dangerous.  What about the single parent that works so many hours she's NOT there for her children when they decide that drugs feel good, not weed, but crack, X, huffing.  You're no longer dealing with your child, you're expected to deal with the drugs, and it isn't working.  What about the parent that takes his son for counseling and the kid sits there and plays a good game and walks out and decides to punch holes in the wall at home? Or calls police when he gets grounded and says daddy was hitting him?  It's crucial to get that child out of that environment, but ONLY if the parents do their own work to change the dynamics within the family.  Parents that send their child away and think they're gonna be FIXED cannot possibily expect their child will want to be around them.  It takes the whole family to learn to communicate, to be a family.  Are there really bad parents...yes I believe there are.  Bad parents makes excuses for their child, rescue their child when they skip school, get arrested, get caught shoplifting and don't let them learn their own lessons.  A good parent can see when running away, drugs, drinking to excess and driving, controlling their home by their out of control behavior, suicide threats, attempts....will destroy them, maybe not death, but in life...and are willing to rescue then.  What IF it doesn't get better?  Antigen, if you have ANY questions about WWASP from a mom that's been there, with a kid that was on a death track, and why I chose to rescue him out of love, ask away.  I really don't feel you are open, but I'm offering.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2003, 08:59:00 AM »
Anon, you sound desperate. I get that. At least intellectually, I understood that pretty well back when I was the 15 year old in question. Now that I'm the mother and my kid is 19, I understand it from a first-hand point of view in full, vibrant and living color.

But, in your panic, you're overlooking a couple of very important things. First, WWASP (with the support of PDFA ads and other propaganda organizations) tells you that neither you nor your kid is capable of dealing with your problems. They don't know that and neither do you. Second, they tell you they can help. But the best evidence they can muster to prove their succes is to order parents and kids to write thank you notes as part of their 'therapy' and then to turn around and use those writings in their PR campaigns.

How do you "learn to be a family" by severing all contact and communications with your family? How do you know Dad didn't hit the kid? It wouldn't be the first nor the last time an adult has kept a kid quiet through intimidation and character assasination. Ask anyone who's ever been diddled by a priest.

WWASP has drawn a line in the sand and instructed you to stand on the opposite side of it from your child. What If he didn't get better on his own? Then, when he's ready, he would have turned to the people he trusts. If you stick with the WWASP program, that's not going to be you. Sorry.

What if, like so many others, WWASP leaves him worse off than he was to begin with? Who does he turn to then? He can't even talk to you about it because you won't believe him. You'll just call it lying manipulation and have him sent back to his abusers.

Can't you see how you're being scammed here?

Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?  
--Economist Milton Friedman

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Offline anon

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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2003, 11:35:00 AM »
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 12:54 ]
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Offline Carey

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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2003, 11:48:00 AM »
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2003, 04:51:00 PM »
Quote
On 2003-09-06 08:35:00, KarenZ wrote:


I do however believe that *IF* they were what they claim to be - they could be.
Well sure. And if there really were a little pill that you could take to make crazy people sane, shy people gregarious and ugly people good looking--all without any unwanted side effects--it would be a wonderful thing. The trouble is that such a thing is not possible. Neither is what the Program promises or how they go about trying to accomplish their goal.

Despite anyone's fond wishes to the contrary, there is only one way to make a person change against their will. First, you have to break their will.

Quote

Back to the kid's point of view - Do you not think a teen who is trashing their quality of life and breaking even their own basic standards of decency, might feel unloved and even abandoned, if the parents just leave them to flounder?

Either use force and coercion or do nothing?That's a false imperative, Karen. I just told ya'll what I've done w/ my kid and it's working out just as well as it did for my grandmother and her wild brood of reckless Paddys.

You have to understand that growing up is something we each have to do for ourselves. No matter what your kid gets into, never entertain the idea that they can't or won't come around. Never stop being there for them, no matter how hard they try to piss you off. Never forget that they're the kid, you're the adult and, like it or not, your primary job is to never panic. It is not your job to retain control of your kid or their behavior, to know all their secrets and make sure they never make a serious mistake. It's your job to be there for them when they need you. Don't worry about their taking advantage. For about the last 20 years of your life, if you've done it right, they'll be paying you back in spades.

You can make suggestions instead of demands. You can give your best advice and leave it to them whether to follow it or not, even when you know that not following your advice will bring them great sorrow. If/when they come around to the same conclusion (sometimes you'll find they were right and you were dead wrong or you'll just have to agree to disagree), try not to be too smug and castigating about it.

Quote

So, back to the truly out of control teen; What kind of intervention can you see making a difference?

What would a good, respectful, safe and effictive program look like?"


Honestly, I can't imagine and haven't found a program that can fix a kid who doesn't think they're broken. That's what families are for. You can no more hire someone to fill that role than you can hire someone to be your kid's friend. Well... technically, you can hire a "friend", but it's illegal in all states except Nevada, I think.

Bear in mind that the world is really not more dangerous now than any other time and kids ta' day are coming into the world substantially the same as kids in any other day. If you have trouble believing that, I suggest you take a part-time job as a bartender at the VFW and just get a load of some of the stories those old farts have to tell. You'll be glad your kids didn't have to come up through the depression, WWII, Korea and all the rest.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2003, 05:45:00 PM »
Where does WWASP promise anything?  I keep reading promise, guarantees, etc., that's BS and have never read that anywhere.  If you think paying for a human service is a guarantee of success, get real, you'll be very disappointed. I have read OTHER programs promising amazing results...
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2003, 07:20:00 PM »
Now come on! You mean to tell me that you have ponied up all this dough, agreed to the bizarre and difficlut demands of Program life (including that you dismiss out of hand any one, no matter how credible, who tells you these people might be hurting your kid while they hold him or her incommunicado) and you expected nothing in return? Puh-lease! Were you born yesterday?

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

A free people ought...to be armed...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188301123X/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> George Washington, 1790

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Offline anon

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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2003, 10:18:00 PM »
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 12:55 ]
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2003, 11:57:00 PM »
Quote
On 2003-09-06 19:18:00, KarenZ wrote:

"


I couldn't get over his ability to look that far ahead!

"


Really? I find that kids that age are pretty nearly obsessed with becoming grown up and mastering every skill and body of knowledge they know of.

I'll tell ya' something serious here and maybe helpful in future. I'm damned glad I have brothers and sisters, even though I don't speak with them. When my mother was ill they asked me if I had any particular preferences about what to do with her, how she could be cared for. I really wasn't kidding when I volunteered to find a 'good' nursing home for her.

I never felt that way about my Dad. Even after 10 years of sort of supporting the program, even after he lied to a cop to try and get me arrested and brough back there, he just wasn't the same as her. He didn't love it. He didn't feed on the power trip. And, after some time had passed, he admitted it had been a mistake and he never, ever again followed program advice or believed those lies about me ever again. He went back to telling me I could and giving me every chance to earn his trust, even when I failed to meet his or my own expectations. He'd quit trying to trip me up and tackle me down for good and all.

When he got ill and eventually died, all six of us kids, regardless of our differences, dropped everything and borrowed extra cash so to go out into those remote WV hills in winter to take care of him or talk him into going to the hospital. And he had been the 'bad' parent, always making a scene cussing, saying outrageous things, putting outrageous bumper stickers on his car, drinking, etc. Mom never figured that out, as far as I know. She just can't understand why. She's such a fucking martyr! The Program was like an extension of her real, down underneath it all personality.

When you see people like that, RUN! Don't ever let those kind into your life ever!



The disrespect for the possession laws fosters a disrespect for laws and the system in general... On top of this is the distinct impression among the youth that some police may use the marihuana laws to arrest people they don't like for other reasons, whether it be their politics, their hair style or their ethnic background.
                                                                     
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/nc/ncmenu.htm' target='_new'>Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2003, 12:11:00 AM »
[/quote]

When you see people like that, RUN! Don't ever let those kind into your life ever!



I definitly second that emotion!!

 :cool:
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Offline anon

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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2003, 11:41:00 AM »
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 12:56 ]
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