Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care

[Anonymous]

It's all just so incestuous it makes me ill.
::puke::




http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=215887#215887

The study implies that NATSAP programs are "licensed". How many are licensed?
HLA isn?t.
993 participants, an average of 6 participants per NATSAP program.
This was not an Independent study. One must also consider the author?s connections with the industry.

C Smoot employed by AEG and serveral other RTCs.
Smoot and Behrens co-create Evidence Based Consulting.
Behrens Clinical Director for Youth Care program, Member NATSAP.
Smoots 'partner' with AEGs Youth Care program.
Smoots are 'associates' of Open Sky Wilderness, Member NATSAP.
Behrens creates Canyon Research and Consulting- most of their clients are AEG programs.
Smoot and Behrens pitch EBC to NATSAP.
Dr. Kevin Fenstermacher employed by both EBC and CRC.

Looks more like a concerted effort to shore up the industry?s reputation, and give parents a false sense of security.

Who is Ellen Behrens, lead researcher at Canyon Research & Consulting, Salt Lake City, Utah?

Sept 2005- AEG?s Youth Care in Draper, Utah ?partners? with Evidence Based Consulting (EBC), a group of psychologists. (Only 2 listed- Tracine and Carl Smoot)- committed to fulfilling the National Institute of Mental Health's agenda for the application of evidence-based research in testing, assessment and treatment.
This is how the innovative partnership works: EBC provides testing services for Youth Care students by using up-to-date psychological tests, interpretive strategies, and treatment recommendations that are suggested in the research literature. In collaboration with Youth Care therapists, a strategic treatment plan is developed, utilizing research-based practices and measurements. The additional perspective of EBC psychologists provides the best possible assessments and treatment for Youth Care students.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 5186.shtml

More on Evidence Based Consulting
http://www.evidencebasedconsulting.com/

Behrens, Clinical Dir of Youth Care
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=218094#218094

Smoot?s are ?Associates? of Open Sky Wilderness
Prior to completing his graduate work, Carl was employed in hospital management. He successfully ran two inpatient psychiatry programs and was later a therapist at (AEGs) Youth Care, Inc.
http://www.openskywilderness.com/assoc.htm

Oct 2005- AEG hosts workshop in Utah. One of the guest speakers:
Ellen Behrens, PhD discussed out of home treatment outcome research. She is the co-founder of Evidence Based Consulting. Behrens was the principal investigator for a large, multi-center study on student outcomes in residential treatment.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 5204.shtml

June ?05 Ellen Behrens and Tracine Smoot pitch ?Evidence-based Practice? to NATSAP members.
http://www.natsap.org/Newsletters/NATSA ... letter.pdf

Dr. Kevin Fenstermacher works for both ?Evidence Based Consulting? (Smoots) and ?Canyon Research and Consulting? (Behrens).
http://canyonrc.com/experience.html
http://psychologicalsolutions.info/exec ... 0team.html

Who are CRCs clients? And, who funded this study?
http://canyonrc.com/experience.html
A whole slew of AEG programs.

Under Links at CRCs website one is taken to the APAs Empirically Supported Treatments page. http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_est/index.html
Their recommendations, under Oppositional Disorders:
Because the immediate goal of treatment is to develop parenting skills, the therapist begins by having parents apply new skills to relatively simple problems (e.g., compliance, completion of chores, oppositional behavior). As parents become proficient using the initial techniques, the child's most serious problem behaviors at home and in school are addressed (e.g., fighting, poor school performance, truancy, stealing, firesetting). In most PMT (PARENT Management Training) programs, the therapist maintains close telephone contact with the parents in-between sessions. These contacts are used to encourage parents to ask questions about the home programs, to provide an opportunity for the therapist to prompt compliance with the behavior-change programs and reinforce parents' use of the skills, to strengthen the therapeutic alliance, and to allow the therapist to problem-solve when programs are not modifying child behavior effectively.

II. Summary of Studies Supporting Treatment Efficacy
PMT is one of the most extensively studied therapies for children and has been shown to be effective in decreasing oppositional, aggressive, and antisocial behavior (for reviews of research, see Dumas, 1989; Forehand & Long, 1988; Kazdin, 1985; Miller & Prinz, 1990; Moreland, Schwebel, Beck, & Wells, 1982). Randomized controlled trials have found that PMT is more effective in changing antisocial behavior and promoting prosocial behavior than many other treatments (e.g. relationship, play therapy, family therapies, varied community services) and control conditions (e.g. waiting-list, "attention-placebo"). Follow-up data have shown that gains are maintained from posttreatment to 1 and 3 years after treatment has ended. One research team found that noncompliant children treated by parent training were functioning as well as nonclinic individuals approximately 14 years later (Long, Forehand, Wierson, & Morgan, 1994). The benefits of PMT often generalize to areas that are not focused on directly during therapy. For example, improvements in parental adjustment and functioning, marital satisfaction, and sibling behavior have been found following therapy. Overall, perhaps no other technique has been as carefully documented and empirically supported as PMT in treating conduct problems.
A unique feature of PMT is the abundance of research on child, parent, and family factors that moderate treatment effects. Moreover, PMT, either alone or in combination with other techniques, has been applied with promising effects to other populations including autistic children, mentally retarded children and adolescents, adjudicated delinquents, and parents who physically abuse their children. The principles and procedures on which PMT relies have also been applied in many settings including schools, institutions, community homes, day-care facilities, and facilities for the elderly.
http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_ ... child.html

One must also consider the report presented August 12 at the American Psychological Association Convention by Allison Pinto PhD.

http://apinto.blog.usf.edu/2006/08/21/e ... -treatment

Last edited by Deborah on Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

[Anonymous]

Guest - since you are so much smarter than a whole team of specialists at UCLA, let me ask you a question.   You can lose the sarcasm lady.  What would you have done? My son was in criminal custody, but the judge wanted him out of my home, as did my younger daughter, for a period of 6 months. Juvenile Hall and probation did not want him,  that's not what you said.  You said" Juvenile Hall did not matter to my son,"   judge would not order him into Juvenile Hall, which was worse than any program I've heard about.   Not really.  I would have much preferred juvy to mindrape.  it is filled with gangs and molestors, and meds were not administred properly. no relatives would take him due to the issues involved.  I had had another mom who had worked with kids for years living with me for 6 months, and even that didn't help. Tell me what I could have done, other than find the best quality place I could, which obviously turned out to be a bad choice. Most of the programs I contacted declined to even accept an application, they felt his problems were too challenging. I was unable to work because of his actions. He had to have a police escort to get to school. A police officer sat outside his room in the ER when I took him there when he got violent. No ambulance company would transport him. He had already been to UCLA, they had discharged him, and did not want him back. no community resources where I live, I pounded on doors trying to find a solution. No other ped psych hospitals in California would take him. Please tell me what my other options were. we were scared. My son could overpower me, and my husband had just died. I provided a loving and nurturing home, had reasonable and consistent house rules. My 12 year old spent hours hiding behind her locked door. I had a lock on my bedroom door as well, and was frightened going to bed at night. I felt totally helpless and abused. I would really like to know. Juvy Perhaps some other parent can make a better choice than I did.

You missed the point in my last post, which is my fault, I should have made it clearer. I AM filled with rage. I just don't think his death was program related in exactly the same way some other deaths were, in other words, the "programming" did not cause his bowel infarction, as in Michelle and others' deaths, and probably some of you as well. This was blatant medical neglect. Did the night staff think he was manipulating? Likely, and I suspected that from the start.  With the issue of "programming" removed from my son's case, and medical neglect the only issue, it may actually make it easeir to get the DA to do something.  And because this was a residential facility with a medical staff, and not a camp or wilderness program, Not a hospital either the expectations for medical assistance and accessibility are more clear. I am not blind as some would think to the atrocities that go on in some of these places. I grew up in a supposedly "loving Christian home" snakepit that was worse than any of the survivor stories I have read. It took me 20 years to recover from it, but I did. The survivors of programs will too, if they are committed to it, and can replace negative thoughts with positive ones.  I still have to work hard every day on pushing away the negative self talk for the emotional and physical abuse I suffered as a child and teenager.  That's why I resisted RTC for my son for so many years, and it took me months to find a place. In hindsight I wish I had sent him elsewhere.

Stay tuned to Draper and Salt Lake. I'm getting stronger every day, and this will be my full time job for awhile. I appreciate all the helpful suggestions from this site. For those who insist on calling me foul names and judging me from afar, I still say, get some help, you have not moved on.   And THAT is where you lose a lot of us.  Be a real voice.

You too.  Do NOT become an "advocate" in the sense of SS.  Regulations already exist to protect children from abuse.  Enforce THOSE instead of trying to make these places 'safer' with even more regulation.  It can't be done.  If they're not following the existing regulations that make it illegal to abuse children (it's been said here many times that if parents were doing to these kids what programs do, they'd be arrested for child abuse.)  , what makes you think adding more bureaucratic bullshit to sort through will help?  

I never said I thought I could make them safer. I said I was going to push for criminal charges and accountability. I'm not unrealistic to the mormon and money situation in Utah.  these programs will NEVER get shut down. With persistence, hopefully we can make them be accountable for their actions. If your voice is being heard so well, why isn't this headline news? why is it so hard for parents to get valid information? Why can't I even find a state by state database of the program deaths?  There will be one soon.

JH was not the answer, we are talking about a child with mental health issues, not a dog, and I really challenge you to come up with a better one. We already tried that 3 times. Communities and mental health professionals and parents really need to step up to the plate and find/fund a better community solution. I'm working on that in my community.

Please excuse my sarcasm while I greive the loss of most of my family . I'll get past it and turn it into something positive. Watch me.

Mom

[Anonymous]

I never said I thought I could make them safer. I said I was going to push for criminal charges and accountability. I'm not unrealistic to the mormon and money situation in Utah.  these programs will NEVER get shut down.

If parents start taking responsibility for their own children, they will.  If parents refuse to send their kids away, they will.  I'm not into trying to make programs safer, gentler or anything except non-existent.  Lofty goal, sure but I couldn't live with myself any other way.

With persistence, hopefully we can make them be accountable for their actions. If your voice is being heard so well, why isn't this headline news? why is it so hard for parents to get valid information? Why can't I even find a state by state database of the program deaths?  There will be one soon.

Because most parents are like you were (before sending him away).  They really believe it will help.  Whenever one of the deaths DOES make it to press, we're told "that it's an isolated incident, not all programs are like that.  Here's a decent one" (and then the EdCon or grieving parent-turned-"advocate" trots out the latest 'new, improved' version of the same old bullshit.)  Bullshit, it's inherent to the philosophy of the programs.

JH was not the answer, we are talking about a child with mental health issues, not a dog,

Then put him in a fucking hospital, not an adult kennel.

 

Please excuse my sarcasm while I greive the loss of most of my family . I'll get past it and turn it into something positive. Watch me.

Mom

Good, get on it then.
 :roll:

[Anne Bonney]

Fuck you!!  You didn't deserve the son you had.

AnonMom, I did want to apologize for this.  I shouldn't have said that.  I do want you to understand where some of my anger comes from though.  I'm really angry that I had to endure what I did, but I'm even more angry about what happened to your son.  I'm angry that people who are supposed to be 'advocates' for the kids are turning into the Boogeymen they condemn.  I'm angry that every time one of us speaks out about how awful these places are, we're told to 'get over it' (I think that's what triggered my outburst, I get so sick of that) or that we're just miserable losers or drug addicts or whatever else.  (And then if I post about what IS good in my life, which is a lot right now, I'm chided for being a stuckup  pig.  It sucks too, because I really would like to talk about what's going on in my life that's great)  I'm angry that year after year, kid after kid is dying and no one seems to give a damn.  I'm angry at the culture that spawned this (this puritanical Drug War has cost so many lives, so much money, so many resources) and perpetuates it.

I'm angry because I still, in some ways at least, feel as helpless as I did sitting in that damn blue chair on front row.  It sucks.

I'm probably PMSing too (half kidding).  I am in a raw mood today.

I hope you accept my apology, it is sincere.  I still don't agree with all of what you've said, but I am sorry for what you went through.  I guess some of what you posted triggered something and I went off half-cocked.  Isn't the first time, won't be the last.

[Anonymous]

anonmom,

I beg you to look at these programs (not just the one your son was in) .. but, all these programs as a whole.  There is a mentality.  The same one that killed your son.  What will happen is the staff members who ignored your son's pleas may not work in the industry again.  maybe.. That won't solve it.  It may seem like a fluke, an accident that could have been prevented.  It isnt. The same people who employed and trained the staff will still be going strong in the industry.  Like the Gayle Degraff's who boast about their 20 year tenure in the industry.  Its a mindset, a program-- all of it.  He didnt die of medical neglect by accident.  Its part of the program.  The probably thought he was manipulating or he needed to "tough it out."  It happend recently to Caleb and it happend to Michelle many years ago.  I agree you needed help with you son and you should have been able to find him proper resources.  The problem with the industry is you can't tell a "good" theraputic facility from a abusive cult type program.  The language is the same -- the marketing is the same.  I am sorry this happend to you. Please have sympathy for those who lived through the trama.  It is a lot like being a POW.  You just don't simply "get over it."  Some of the folks on fornits are people are in their 40's & maybe 50's.  They suffered many years of pain before being validated that what was done to them was wrong.  I ask you to listen to them.  Ignore their anger and listen to where they come from.  Its a very tangled deep web of lies and deception.  In your research you will find the same story as your sons over and over again.  Medical Neglect .. its part of the program.  I'm sorry you had to endure the loss of your son.  We hope you will be a strong voice to those who you have the ear of now.. to let them know.. what is happening in these programs is abuse and it needs to stop .. it is against the law.  We counting on your voice.

[TheWho]

Anne Bonney wrote:

(And then if I post about what IS good in my life, which is a lot right now, I'm chided for being a stuckup pig. It sucks too, because I really would like to talk about what's going on in my life that's great)

Anne,  fornits should have space on its board to create and support a thread or forum for those survivors who are presently  in a good space in their lives and want to talk about it or share it without pissing off those who are going thru a tough time.  
People dying of cancer who have very little hope like to talk about the good day they had or the time they spent with family, It isn’t healthy to focus on the anger 24/7 and it wouldnt diminish your cause if you shared the good side with others.  After all it is a healing process which is typically a mixture of good and bad with ,hopefully, the good outweighing the bad over time.
It would be good to heard the softer side of others like getting a phone call from a loved one or taking a short sail up the coast with a steady but soft wind out of the south, just enough to keep the jib and main sail full and trim , sight a small land mark as a heading, adjust the main stay and free up one hand from the tiller so you can light up as you feel the occasional spray of salt water encompass you as it spills over the bow and life is good for a short time.  Its important to be able to share these experiences with others if that’s what you like.

[Anonymous]

Then put him in a fucking hospital, not an adult kennel.


 :roll:

I did that, twice. After $48,000.00 and several weeks of observation, they gave him the boot and referred him to RTC. Which is my point. There truly is no help out there for extreme situations. Look past yours. When a parent runs out of options, what other option is there? My challenge still has not been answered.

anyone with verifiable information about abuse or neglect at Youth Care can contact justiceforbrendan@hotmail.com. All serious inquiries addressed. The jerkoffs who get off on others' pain will be ignored.

Mom

[Anne Bonney]

Anne Bonney wrote:

(And then if I post about what IS good in my life, which is a lot right now, I'm chided for being a stuckup pig. It sucks too, because I really would like to talk about what's going on in my life that's great)

Anne,  fornits should have space on its board to create and support a thread or forum for those survivors who are presently  in a good space in their lives and want to talk about it or share it without pissing off those who are going thru a tough time.  
People dying of cancer who have very little hope like to talk about the good day they had or the time they spent with family, It isn’t healthy to focus on the anger 24/7 and it wouldnt diminish your cause if you shared the good side with others.  After all it is a healing process which is typically a mixture of good and bad with ,hopefully, the good outweighing the bad over time.
It would be good to heard the softer side of others like getting a phone call from a loved one or taking a short sail up the coast with a steady but soft wind out of the south, just enough to keep the jib and main sail full and trim , sight a small land mark as a heading, adjust the main stay and free up one hand from the tiller so you can light up as you feel the occasional spray of salt water encompass you as it spills over the bow and life is good for a short time.  Its important to be able to share these experiences with others if that’s what you like.

Fuck off you shill.  No sailor worth his salt would ever support the kind of shit that goes on at ASR, HLA, Straight, AARC, Hyde and all the rest.   Those comments were directed at the program proponents.  If I say I'm traumatized, I"m a loser,  If I talk about the good things in my life, then I MUST owe  it to the program.  :roll:

You want to change a kids life and you have the money to ship 'em off to stranger?   Charter a boat, take them out and actuallly DO something with them.  Make them a part of your life, instead of an accessory.  Take a few months off and charter a boat and go sailing around the Caribbean.  I'm not kidding.  There was a friend of mine I was hanging out with right before I was sent off.  She was doing 3X as much as I was (which was next to nothing anyway, normal teen shit).  Her parents (I later found out the reasoning because I asked them what their thought process was since both they and my parents were exposed to the same shpiel and sent their kids to the same private school) decided to take the money they would have spent sending her to Straight and instead take the whole family on a sailing trip through the Caribbean.  They were responsible on night watch for the family's safety, and that's not something to be taken lightly out there.  Seriously, even in something close like Florida Bay, they understood that if you didn't work as a team, you were dead.  No argument, no negotiation.  But they understood it because IT HAD A POINT  It wasn't busy work and they actually learned about life, because it wasn't hidden from them.  They weren't isolated from the outside world,  They  were exposed to and embraced it...  They knew this and adapted appropriately.  They stopped at islands, volunteering all the way and learning about life and different cultures.  They were exposed to alcohol in a responsible (albeit fun)_and sensible manner, instead of approaching it like it was poison.    And don't come  back and tell me that you can't afford it.  Get creative.  You don't have to sail the seven seas, go camping for a few months.  Backpack across a couple of states.  Get involved in your kids' lives.  It can be done very cheaply if you're determined.  

Seriously, my main point in this......ALL of this is that too many parents are turning over the responsibility of raising their kids tosomeone else.  They expect school, or church or the gubment or god forbid Al Anon or whatever brand or form of salvation you choose to tell you how to live your life or what is rign and what is wrong.  The reality is, it lies within.  No amount of force or coercion will ever give that to you.  You can temporarily change someone's behavior, but in order to change someone against their will, you have to break that will.  That is NEVER safe or good.  The end does NOT justify the means.







**edited to add blue text.  I was proofing this, not so successfully, and hit go too soon.

[hanzomon4]

Then put him in a fucking hospital, not an adult kennel.


 :roll:

I did that, twice. After $48,000.00 and several weeks of observation, they gave him the boot and referred him to RTC. Which is my point. There truly is no help out there for extreme situations. Look past yours. When a parent runs out of options, what other option is there? My challenge still has not been answered.

anyone with verifiable information about abuse or neglect at Youth Care can contact justiceforbrendan@hotmail.com. All serious inquiries addressed. The jerkoffs who get off on others' pain will be ignored.

Mom

Yup. sounds like folks trying to use the hammer. Instead of backing off they kept pushing more and more restrictive treatment. It's counter productive for things that can't be "fixed". Like depression, you can't fix it you can only try to cope until it lifts. I took time off from high school and really put my life on hold while I was really sick. My doc wanted me to keep doing all the "normal" things in life while I was sick, every time we tried that I would get worse and worse. When his treatments failed he actually tried to get me to get shock therapy.....

Question you say your son was violent? Was this the initial problem or did it come later? You mentioned that he was bullied, could this have sparked his violence and what was done to stop the bulling?

[Che Gookin]

Maybe it is just me, but is it really all that important why the kid was put in this place to begin with? None of us were around to witness what transpired. Do we know what pressures the mom was operating under? As the answer is no to both of the questions I think we ought to recognize that the woman just lost her child and show a little sensitivity rather than trying to do another program "redux" on the lady to excorcise our own program demons.

Rather than trying to pillory the mother for doing what she felt was in the best interest of her son why don't we acknowledge her loss and help this woman in anyway possible to bring about the end of this shitpit?

Because honestly I don't really concern myself with what she thinks or believes about the appropriateness of the placement. That is her deal, she was there, she was dealing with it, she made the call based on the conditions that she witnessed. Damned if I know what the heck was going on in her house at the time, so you won't see me casting judgement against the lady. Particularly given the idea that the more time passes and the more this lady investigates the program and others like it the oh so painfully obvious patterns of similarites in the neglect and abuse of children will become all the more apparent.

Let's get in on the action and help deliver Youthcare a primo number one skull fornicatin' session that is probably long overdue.

[hanzomon4]

You're right.....

The only other thing I can think of besides what's already been suggested is to get a law passed that would make failure to provide medical care because the staff believe the child is faking a criminal offense and negligent homicide if the child dies. That would make it clear that this is a crime and start putting people behind bars.

I believe anyone can write a law but you need to get a congressmen to sponsor it. The advantage you have is that, unlike restraint deaths, you can't twist the faking excuse into something thats necessary, making any opposition to a law making this a criminal offense basically legless.

Get in touch with other groups(don't have to be related to this issue) who have gotten laws passed to get some tips on how they went about navigating the system, getting support, running a campaign, etc...  

Is something like this doable Cathy?

[Covergaard]

Help in such situation should be at hand in such cases. However tragic a parent death is, it is something which happens every single day.

Every day there is a child, which needs to deal with it whether we like it or not. If they react violent or ends up in deep depression should not be the question. The question is:

Why were there no local help to get, when we are talking about an everyday problem?

I don't know what made the facility so special regarding taking care of the problem. We do not have the parent manual, so we can read what kind of therapeutic approach they claim to use. I would like it, so we can put the facility on fornits wiki: It can be mailed to youthcare(a)secretprisonsforteens.dk

[Anonymous]

You're right.....

The only other thing I can think of besides what's already been suggested is to get a law passed that would make failure to provide medical care because the staff believe the child is faking a criminal offense and negligent homicide if the child dies. That would make it clear that this is a crime and start putting people behind bars.

I believe anyone can write a law but you need to get a congressmen to sponsor it. The advantage you have is that, unlike restraint deaths, you can't twist the faking excuse into something thats necessary, making any opposition to a law making this a criminal offense basically legless.

Get in touch with other groups(don't have to be related to this issue) who have gotten laws passed to get some tips on how they went about navigating the system, getting support, running a campaign, etc...  

Is something like this doable Cathy?

that's exactly what my personal mission is, in addition to going after the local mental health community for gross negligence, and I have several leads on congressWOMEN (with children)  who may be interested in both issues.   Until both the program administrators and their bank accounts, along with the individual caretakers are held financially and personally accountable and hit where it really hurts them, this madness will continue. I am also getting close to some good national media contacts. And I have talked with Cathy Sutton about it.  Once I get past my son's memorial service and my daughter starts school I will have more free time and will post the information here for anyone who wants to chime in. And I do believe my son's case is different in some critical ways that can be useful.

Pitbull mom
Helpful information can be sent to justiceforbrendan@hotmail.com.

[Anonymous]

Anne Bonney wrote:

(And then if I post about what IS good in my life, which is a lot right now, I'm chided for being a stuckup pig. It sucks too, because I really would like to talk about what's going on in my life that's great)

Anne,  fornits should have space on its board to create and support a thread or forum for those survivors who are presently  in a good space in their lives and want to talk about it or share it without pissing off those who are going thru a tough time.  
People dying of cancer who have very little hope like to talk about the good day they had or the time they spent with family, It isn’t healthy to focus on the anger 24/7 and it wouldnt diminish your cause if you shared the good side with others.  After all it is a healing process which is typically a mixture of good and bad with ,hopefully, the good outweighing the bad over time.
It would be good to heard the softer side of others like getting a phone call from a loved one or taking a short sail up the coast with a steady but soft wind out of the south, just enough to keep the jib and main sail full and trim , sight a small land mark as a heading, adjust the main stay and free up one hand from the tiller so you can light up as you feel the occasional spray of salt water encompass you as it spills over the bow and life is good for a short time.  Its important to be able to share these experiences with others if that’s what you like.

Fuck off you shill.  No sailor worth his salt would ever support the kind of shit that goes on at ASR, HLA, Straight, AARC, Hyde and all the rest.   Those comments were directed at the program proponents.  If I say I'm traumatized, I"m a loser,  If I talk about the good things in my life, then I MUST owe  it to the program.  :roll:

You want to change a kids life and you have the money to ship 'em off to stranger?   Charter a boat, take them out and actuallly DO something with them.  Make them a part of your life, instead of an accessory.  Take a few months off and charter a boat and go sailing around the Caribbean.  I'm not kidding.  There was a friend of mine I was hanging out with right before I was sent off.  She was doing 3X as much as I was (which was next to nothing anyway, normal teen shit).  Her parents (I later found out the reasoning because I asked them what their thought process was since both they and my parents were exposed to the same shpiel and sent their kids to the same private school) decided to take the money they would have spent sending her to Straight and instead take the whole family on a sailing trip through the Caribbean.  They were responsible on night watch for the family's safety, and that's not something to be taken lightly out there.  Seriously, even in something close like Florida Bay, they understood that if you didn't work as a team, you were dead.  No argument, no negotiation.  But they understood it because IT HAD A POINT  It wasn't busy work and they actually learned about life, because it wasn't hidden from them.  They weren't isolated from the outside world,  They  were exposed to and embraced it...  They knew this and adapted appropriately.  They stopped at islands, volunteering all the way and learning about life and different cultures.  They were exposed to alcohol in a responsible (albeit fun)_and sensible manner, instead of approaching it like it was poison.    And don't come  back and tell me that you can't afford it.  Get creative.  You don't have to sail the seven seas, go camping for a few months.  Backpack across a couple of states.  Get involved in your kids' lives.  It can be done very cheaply if you're determined.  

Seriously, my main point in this......ALL of this is that too many parents are turning over the responsibility of raising their kids tosomeone else.  They expect school, or church or the gubment or god forbid Al Anon or whatever brand or form of salvation you choose to tell you how to live your life or what is rign and what is wrong.  The reality is, it lies within.  No amount of force or coercion will ever give that to you.  You can temporarily change someone's behavior, but in order to change someone against their will, you have to break that will.  That is NEVER safe or good.  The end does NOT justify the means.







**edited to add blue text.  I was proofing this, not so successfully, and hit go too soon.

You make some really good points, and those are all great suggestions. Some people do all of that and still need help. Communities need to rally around those that do, and help them, not ostrasize them or make them the problem.  My husband and I were very involved in our son's life - camping, sports, scouts, family meetings, volunteer activities, family therapy, wrestling club, frequent weekend trips to see the world.  My kid's brain seems to have had some faulty wiring. We accepted him the way he was, loved him, and did everything we could to help him cope and build his self esteem.  Add in teenager hormones and a system insensitive to bullying, and suddenly you have have a dangerous kid. I ended up being investigated by CPS because my kid filed malicious and false child abuse reports becuase he did not agree with our family rules and consistent enforcement. The charges were determined to be unfounded, but the DHS based their entire service plan on believing he was abused, and did not take my safety concerns seriously. I did not turn over responsiblity to anyone, in fact I refused to let him become a ward of the court, which is partly why he ended up in Utah.  I just asked for help. A social aide, a classroom aide. A tutor. A behaviorist to come into my home and help us with issues on a day to day basis. Some respite care so I could regroup my own emotions from the abuse.  This kind of help is out there, if you can get it.  I was promised services, and then denied because I could not qualify for Medi-cal. it's all about the  $$$.  It's not always the parents' fault. I'm not saying never.

In my grieving process over the deaths of my husband, my mother and my son over the past 8 months,  I have come to understand that I am not always in control of the events that have happened in my life, only in the way that I respond and move on with my life. And sometimes you do have to reach out for help.

Pitbull mom

[TheWho]

Anne Bonney wrote:

(And then if I post about what IS good in my life, which is a lot right now, I'm chided for being a stuckup pig. It sucks too, because I really would like to talk about what's going on in my life that's great)

Anne,  fornits should have space on its board to create and support a thread or forum for those survivors who are presently  in a good space in their lives and want to talk about it or share it without pissing off those who are going thru a tough time.  
People dying of cancer who have very little hope like to talk about the good day they had or the time they spent with family, It isn’t healthy to focus on the anger 24/7 and it wouldnt diminish your cause if you shared the good side with others.  After all it is a healing process which is typically a mixture of good and bad with ,hopefully, the good outweighing the bad over time.
It would be good to heard the softer side of others like getting a phone call from a loved one or taking a short sail up the coast with a steady but soft wind out of the south, just enough to keep the jib and main sail full and trim , sight a small land mark as a heading, adjust the main stay and free up one hand from the tiller so you can light up as you feel the occasional spray of salt water encompass you as it spills over the bow and life is good for a short time.  Its important to be able to share these experiences with others if that’s what you like.

Fuck off you shill.  No sailor worth his salt would ever support the kind of shit that goes on at ASR, HLA, Straight, AARC, Hyde and all the rest.   Those comments were directed at the program proponents.  If I say I'm traumatized, I"m a loser,  If I talk about the good things in my life, then I MUST owe  it to the program.  :roll:

You want to change a kids life and you have the money to ship 'em off to stranger?   Charter a boat, take them out and actuallly DO something with them.  Make them a part of your life, instead of an accessory.  Take a few months off and charter a boat and go sailing around the Caribbean.  I'm not kidding.  There was a friend of mine I was hanging out with right before I was sent off.  She was doing 3X as much as I was (which was next to nothing anyway, normal teen shit).  Her parents (I later found out the reasoning because I asked them what their thought process was since both they and my parents were exposed to the same shpiel and sent their kids to the same private school) decided to take the money they would have spent sending her to Straight and instead take the whole family on a sailing trip through the Caribbean.  They were responsible on night watch for the family's safety, and that's not something to be taken lightly out there.  Seriously, even in something close like Florida Bay, they understood that if you didn't work as a team, you were dead.  No argument, no negotiation.  But they understood it because IT HAD A POINT  It wasn't busy work and they actually learned about life, because it wasn't hidden from them.  They weren't isolated from the outside world,  They  were exposed to and embraced it...  They knew this and adapted appropriately.  They stopped at islands, volunteering all the way and learning about life and different cultures.  They were exposed to alcohol in a responsible (albeit fun)_and sensible manner, instead of approaching it like it was poison.    And don't come  back and tell me that you can't afford it.  Get creative.  You don't have to sail the seven seas, go camping for a few months.  Backpack across a couple of states.  Get involved in your kids' lives.  It can be done very cheaply if you're determined.  

Seriously, my main point in this......ALL of this is that too many parents are turning over the responsibility of raising their kids tosomeone else.  They expect school, or church or the gubment or god forbid Al Anon or whatever brand or form of salvation you choose to tell you how to live your life or what is rign and what is wrong.  The reality is, it lies within.  No amount of force or coercion will ever give that to you.  You can temporarily change someone's behavior, but in order to change someone against their will, you have to break that will.  That is NEVER safe or good.  The end does NOT justify the means.







**edited to add blue text.  I was proofing this, not so successfully, and hit go too soon.

Those are great suggestions, Anne and would work with a great deal of kids/families as an alternative to outside help.

If I say I'm traumatized, I"m a loser, If I talk about the good things in my life, then I MUST owe it to the program.

These seem to be limitations that you impose on yourself.  It doesnt have to be that way, give yourself credit.  What you are today is a combination of all of your past, not just the program experience, it includes the things you bring aboard yourself (your effort) along with those external stimuli that was forced upon you.  Share how you feel, dont try to disseminate which part of your past is responsible for each feeling and label them.  Each feeling doesnt have to be the product of one specific time in your life.