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Offline Truth Searcher

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« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2007, 02:12:21 PM »
Quote
We are a culture of eloi... 30 plus years and I still can't talk to my mum.


I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
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quot;The test of the morality of a society is what is does for it\'s children\"

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2007, 03:07:55 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Ursus

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« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2007, 03:37:58 PM »
Quote from: ""Truth Searcher""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
We are a culture of eloi... 30 plus years and I still can't talk to my mum.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
Quote from: ""Wikipedia""
The main difference from their earlier ruler-worker state is that while the Morlocks continue to support the world's infrastructure and serve the Eloi, the Eloi have undergone significant physical and mental deterioration. Having solved all problems which required strength, intelligence or virtue, they have slowly become dissolute, frail idiots. While one initially has the impression that the Eloi live a life of play and toil less abundance, it is revealed that the Morlocks are tending to the Eloi's needs for the same reason a farmer tends to cattle - because the Eloi compose most (if not all) of the Morlock diet and the Eloi are no longer capable of acting in any other role.


Great science fiction uses the medium as a means of illustrating certain concepts, tenets, philosophies, what have you, in an unfamiliar context, thereby freeing the reader from their own cultural bias... and enabling them to see the intended for what it really is.  Just my highly subjective opinion, of course...
 :lol:
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Offline Ursus

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« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2007, 03:52:08 PM »
Here's some more, with Stephenson expanding H.G. Wells's orginal theme  and applying it to current reliance on technology and corporate employment systems in contemporary culture...

Quote from: ""Wikipedia""
In Neal Stephenson's essay on modern culture with respect to the development of Computer Operating Systems, "In the Beginning was the Command Line", he demonstrates similarities between the future in The Time Machine and contemporary American culture. He claims that most Americans have been exposed to a "corporate monoculture" which renders them "unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands." Those who are willing to remain outside of this "culture" are capable of obtaining powerful tools to deal with the world, and it is they, rather than the neutered Eloi, that run things. The assumption seems to be that the Eloi will manage to fill their heads with garbage one way or the other, so our culture exists to ensure that it is harmless garbage rather than the dangerous types that lead to disruptions, violence, wars and inquisitions.

To quote Stephenson directly:


    "But in our world it's the other way round. The Morlocks are in the minority, and they are running the show, because they understand how everything works. The much more numerous Eloi learn everything they know from being steeped from birth in electronic media directed and controlled by book-reading Morlocks. So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost unbelievably infectious and (b) neuters every person who gets infected by it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands."
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Offline Truth Searcher

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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2007, 04:10:07 PM »
Quote
being steeped from birth in electronic media directed and controlled ... So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost unbelievably infectious and (b) . neuters every person who gets infected by it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands


Now I hear you.  Thanks.

It is so true that we (as a cultural whole) have increasing difficulty in thinking for ourselves.  Standing by our own convictions ... and being firm in our values.
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quot;The test of the morality of a society is what is does for it\'s children\"

Deitrich Bonhoeffer

Offline Ursus

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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2007, 05:11:18 PM »
"...if I only had a brain!" -- Scarecrow
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Offline exhausted

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« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2007, 05:30:22 PM »
Quote from: ""Truth Searcher""
Quote
being steeped from birth in electronic media directed and controlled ... So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost unbelievably infectious and (b) . neuters every person who gets infected by it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands

Now I hear you.  Thanks.

It is so true that we (as a cultural whole) have increasing difficulty in thinking for ourselves.  Standing by our own convictions ... and being firm in our values.
Quite - if you go against thegrain and stand up for what you believe is right, society thinks you're not normal

If you're a kid and do this, you end up in a program  :roll:
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Offline Rachael

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« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2007, 11:34:07 PM »
Quote from: ""exhausted""
Quote from: ""Truth Searcher""
Quote
being steeped from birth in electronic media directed and controlled ... So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost unbelievably infectious and (b) . neuters every person who gets infected by it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands

Now I hear you.  Thanks.

It is so true that we (as a cultural whole) have increasing difficulty in thinking for ourselves.  Standing by our own convictions ... and being firm in our values.
Quite - if you go against thegrain and stand up for what you believe is right, society thinks you're not normal

If you're a kid and do this, you end up in a program  :roll:



That was exactly the reason why I was institutionalized. The fact that I was a social activist (with Food not Bombs, the revolutionary knitting circle and other non-violent protest groups), civically involved (on the Mayor's Civic advisory council), vegan, and worked for a human rights lawyer were all proof of my "druggie" habits. Even volunteering and being on the debate club were "druggie". Didn't even matter that I'd only very lightly experimented w/ drugs, being socially aware and trying to make change in this world were so anti-social, I must need serious help.
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Justice, Justice shall you pursue.

Deuteronomy 16:20

Offline psy

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« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2007, 11:42:26 PM »
Quote from: ""Rachael""
Quote from: ""exhausted""
Quote from: ""Truth Searcher""
Quote
being steeped from birth in electronic media directed and controlled ... So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost unbelievably infectious and (b) . neuters every person who gets infected by it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands

Now I hear you.  Thanks.

It is so true that we (as a cultural whole) have increasing difficulty in thinking for ourselves.  Standing by our own convictions ... and being firm in our values.
Quite - if you go against thegrain and stand up for what you believe is right, society thinks you're not normal

If you're a kid and do this, you end up in a program  :roll:


That was exactly the reason why I was institutionalized. The fact that I was a social activist (with Food not Bombs, the revolutionary knitting circle and other non-violent protest groups), civically involved (on the Mayor's Civic advisory council), vegan, and worked for a human rights lawyer were all proof of my "druggie" habits. Even volunteering and being on the debate club were "druggie". Didn't even matter that I'd only very lightly experimented w/ drugs, being socially aware and trying to make change in this world were so anti-social, I must need serious help.


Well my activism was one of the contributing factors.  My parents were worried since i was casually involved with the socialist workers party (protesting for immigration rights, protesting G8 stuff, protesting police brutality at G8 protests, puting up posters of Dubya crossed with a monkey... etc)  It was hardly "the reason" but it did put them at unease.  The "goth kids" i was friends with at the time also scared the hell out of them...  Mainly though, it was just simply being bi that did it.
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Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
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Offline basketball

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check out the disturbing trailer
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2007, 12:10:13 AM »
from the movie - over the g w

and really, parents actually PAY for this
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2007, 12:15:17 AM »
I hear kids say a lot that a contributing factor to being sent to programs is the youth subculture that they are into at the time whether it is goth, punk or those boys who like rap and ridiculously big pants . Another big thing seems to be older kids who like some kind of mildly subersive political movement. While I understnad that in many cases it is in conjunction wtih drug taking etc I dont understand why such a mundane thing is such a cause for concern. Particularly in America. Afterall it was the US which invented rock and roll and Jazz. They were the counterculture elements of the day. What is it about this fairly standard behaviour which inspires such fear and dread in some parents? it is pretty universal for kids to find some kind of subculture which appeals to them and which their parents find absurd.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Ursus

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« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2007, 05:58:35 AM »
Ever and always, in waves of increase and decrease, there appear to be trends of controlling people the world over...
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Offline sick of child torture girl

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« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2007, 12:07:37 PM »
Quote from: ""Truth Searcher""
Quote
You also can send her back anytime you like

Are you freaking kidding me??

 I regret our decision.  I hate what we did to her.  With the perspective of hindsight, I would never send her away again.

In addition, she's now a legal adult.  She is sailing her own ship.  And she's doing a find job I might add.


That’s 2 years she lived with you post program in that position with the corresponding Stockholm/other issues/ “mindset” & it doesn’t go away just because you’re over 18. I’m now over 18 but I still have a "mindset" with my parents. You can’t “think” one way for a good portion of your formative years and have “thinking” and communication styles erased by a birthday.

As you can see by how she’s only telling you these things NOW 2 years later in tears...SOMETHING was affecting her communication with you. And that SOMETHING though receding, is still extant, and a lot deeper than u consider

As for her program not being systematically abusive you only need to read a little in to what you know , even of the little you’ve said here, to know better.
First of all, if the program was so systematically unethical in their dealings with you wouldnt they be systematically unethical to your daughter over whom they have total control? These things follow a pattern

Secondly, was she kidnapped? That’s abuse. Was she than held involuntarily? That’s a CRIME referred to as involuntary confinement if the human in question is any other than a “troubled youth” whom can passed about like a football. So prima ficie she has suffered systematic abuse

Imprisonment without rights protecting the imprisoned is systematic abuse. Hardened adult criminals have belts taken from them automatically as prison is accepted as so horrible it will drive a sane man to suicide. Its even worse when you are not protected by a highly specified set of rights which prevent you from disappearing into an abyss of absolute power. Its even worse when this  violation is perpetrated not just by a acceptably dangerous govt because of political reasons, but by ones’ own  parents in conjunction with a supposedly ethical govt because one is so bad,/subhuman/insane that one is unworthy of a natural life or human rights.

 Here is Dr describing the pshological implications of not having these inborn human rights violated






Further, Im sure communication was limited, phones monitored, negative assessment of program punished, That is systematic abuse

Further, those confessions she was forced to make are systematic abuse. Would you like to be forced to admit all you intimate “sins”( yes in the context of program they are sins/examples of insanity) to your daughter? Every drug you’ve taken, every petty misdeed, or simple quirk..and each sexual act. Forcing “enemies” to make public confessions activity is the MO of totalitarian thought reform facilities.
The purpose of those confessions is to break down your child’s identity and rebuild a self concept of deviant. Forcing her to admit her repugnantcies  to you was so that in her mind her primary relationship knew her deviance.In confessing she lowers herself,accepts your authority to judg,e recoil, forgive at your leisure. You’re the master. Newly humbled, newly repugnant, newly penitent in a way only one can be made by ones own mother, she becomes more confused about reality, more certain that she is terrible, and more accepting that she is not entitled to respect, decency, etc like non deviants.

Forcing anyone to make public declarations of sex activity- outside of a crime report basis is sexual abuse. And forcing a girl to make this to her mother & father is INCESTUAL sexual abuse You were essentially manipulated into sexually abusing your own daughter in the same way that if she was forced to pull down her pants and point to her bad vagina you would be sexually abusing her

The complicated effects on the brain of a young woman whom endures this are unknown, as such information could only be gleaned by conducting experiments on unwilling children and real doctors in real intuitions will not do that

How long was she there?. Depending on how long I think its impossible she doesn’t have some heavy duty issues –brainwashing other issues going on. The pretend drs of program promote the idea that one has “behavioral disorders”-what is important is the behavior, in reality what is important is the psyche spirit of the individual, and even if a young person is behaving the important part of them can still be very very damaged in complicated and in saturated ways. I’m not saying any of this to hurt you the important thing is you pulled her…but if you really think about it….
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Offline Truth Searcher

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« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2007, 01:50:55 PM »
Wow sick of torture  ~ you make some very interesting arguments.  I'm not sure where to start.  

In regard to her being 18, I simply meant that she is in control of her own destiny.  I'm quite certain she does not see being sent back to the ranch as a remote possibility.

You make interesting points in regard to defining abuse.  She was not "kidnapped" if you mean using escorts.  We took her ourselves.  I suppose that she was held involuntarily initially.  But, within a few days, she was actually glad that she was there.  She hated her public high school.   We tried homeschooling and she hated the social isolation.  So, for her, the private school part was good.

I'm not sure that I agree with the notion that "being held involuntarily" equates abuse.  She was held involuntarily in mental health facilities too ... but is that abuse?  Or was it in her best interest to help her through a period of time when she was considering suicide?  Personally, I think the latter.  

I would argue that my daughter never lost her "rights".   Adequate food, water, reasonable shelter (I have a serious problem with wilderness programs definition of shelter), decent clothing, the right to speak and be heard, the right to some level of self determination (age and maturity dependent), to love and be loved, etc. are tangible rights.  That is not to be confused with "privileges".   I am fine with revoking privileges for a period of time ... I am fine with "earning" privileges.   I do not think it abusive to suspend certain priveldges ... and allow the opportunity to earn them back.

Communication was limited.  I agree with you on this one.

The confessions were not "forced".  This facility did not engage in the LGAT type tactics that many programs use.  Her confessions were made one on one with her therapist.  She made them on her own accord.  She takes ownership of the lies.  However, I recongnize the fact that the environment that she was existing in encouraged conformance.  I'm still thinking through this point.

She was in program about 16 months... give or take for trips home, our trips out there, etc.  

I have no doubt that this experience had a profound impact on her.  And I have no doubt that this will rear its ugly head throughout her lifetime.  And I'm not sure where I stand with the whole psychiatric approach to human behavior.  I think it was Deborah who had posted something about "learned helplessness".  And I have been thinking alot about that concept.  

I appreciate your wisdom and your gentleness in sharing it.  I never sensed that you were sharing it "to hurt" me.  That is why I come here ... because I really do want to understand.

Thanks.
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quot;The test of the morality of a society is what is does for it\'s children\"

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Offline Rachael

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« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2007, 02:11:47 PM »
I'm sure you've posted this elsewhere, but what program was your daughter in exactly?

Rachael
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Justice, Justice shall you pursue.

Deuteronomy 16:20