Just because I needed to

[Anonymous]

psy, you're a smart kid, so please take this in stride -- it's ridiculous, not rediculous. (Think "ridicule.") - Your friend the Spelling Nazi.

The only thing more annoying than TheWho's posts.

Suck a dick.

[Anonymous]

psy, you're a smart kid, so please take this in stride -- it's ridiculous, not rediculous. (Think "ridicule.") - Your friend the Spelling Nazi.

The only thing more annoying than TheWho's posts.

Suck a dick.

Wow for a moment there I thought I was back at the Elan Forum :rofl: [/b]

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

[vern]

Antigen, I found this on the I NEED AVICE thread and brought it over here.   When I start getting depressed and start questioning some of my thinking I reread some of the advice here to keep me on the right track

Vern, I hope you understand, at least, that Who is a perfect representative of Program philosophy and personality and that their magic snake oil cure for the insoluible condidtion of adolescence just that, snake oil.

On the bright side, the terrifying danger over which these sadistic lunatics want you to panic is really not all that big a deal. You think partying w/ friends is risky behavior? Well just look to generations past when disaffected young men took other options, like joining the French Foreign Legion or heading out into the Wild West to seek their fame and fortune and the girls just had to suck it up.

I hope the kid is doing alright. He's luck to have an aunt like you who has held fast to that quaint old habit of thinking things through and standing by family even when the rest of the herd is stampeding over a cliff. It'll all work out in the end.
_________________
Drug war POW
return undef() if /coercion/i
(It's Perl. To put it another way...)

"Duct-taped from head to toe for no reason. (my favorite)" The Who

Well Vern, you could do that.

But what effect would it have? Having him at your house isn't gouing to make him give up his lifestyle and want what you want for him, you're doing okay by giving him his space to work it all out and letting him know you're still there for him no matter what, consider the fact that he is taking to you about the drink and acid abuse as him placing a huge trust in you, not many kids would admit that to anyone, he's turning to you by telling you something that you could easily run to the police or his parents with in order to get taken away, it's a huge trust he's placing in you

I know it's really difficult, but try not to lecture him, by all means let him know you are not impressed by his lifestyle and see him as deserving better for himself, but for the most part, keep him close with the trust you share ... and good luck in helping to bring him back to a life that he really wants, I'm sure hes as mad as hell at himself for what he's doing, which is probably why he tells you

exhausted,
Thanks for building my confidence, sometimes I question my own thinking on this matter and it's nice to be reassured  

Vern

[Antigen]

I can tell you this much, Vern, not medaling is soooo important. That's the one thing my dad did, quit lecturing, that proved out over years that he really was sorry for his part in the whole program ordeal. Of course, he continued to lecture and debate about politics, economy, work ethic, education and everything else. But, once he realized what a huge mistake he had made in putting his faith in these newage faith healers instead of his own kids, he never again ever tried to give my advice on lifestyle, drug use or any other topic close to Program bullshit.

I think he realized at some point that he was not qualified to speak to me on the topic and that showed real respect that I desperately needed.

[exhausted]

exhausted,
Thanks for building my confidence, sometimes I question my own thinking on this matter and it's nice to be reassured  

Vern

Your welcome, there are very few of us who are panicking like crazy & just want someone to sort the problem out, that will stand by our convictions and just hold on to them in the hope they'll hold onto themselves

i think this kid is going to be okay somehow, he's got one person who is there no matter what and one person is all it needs

Keep going, you're doing great  :wink:

[psy]

exhausted,
Thanks for building my confidence, sometimes I question my own thinking on this matter and it's nice to be reassured  

Vern

Your welcome, there are very few of us who are panicking like crazy & just want someone to sort the problem out, that will stand by our convictions and just hold on to them in the hope they'll hold onto themselves

Now i'm probably gonna get blasted for this but this is what AlAnon is supposed to teach... that people are powerless over others.  "Let go and let god"... Some of it makes sense in some situations.  But then again, they advocate cutting off support, so I don't see how that is supposed to help somebody aside from helping them to "hit rock bottom"...  It's like "let go (off a cliff)  and let god (catch him/her)" well These people obviously lack some common sense because regardless of whether or not a person has a drug/alcohol problem, cutting off support is very likely to make them hit rock bottom... and if a person hits rock bottom, they tend to do things they wouldn't normally, and develop problems they wouldn't normally.  shit.. if you keep telling them "bla bla bla... you're an addict ... you're gonna DIE!!!!!"...  at their lowest point.. they might as well fulfill that prophecy/curse...  as it's what you told them would happen.

And at the same time, they see the program, whether it be AA, straight, or what have you, as the pre-programmed salvation.. God is love, unconditional love.. bla bla bla... It sounds awfully attractive when you're suffering.  Then you save your own life and attribute it to a safety blanket/easter bunny/generic-god.  Total placebo. But that's what it was designed to be.  Stupid Bill who started the whole AA shit.. Doctors put him on so many hallucinogens until he saw god and had a conversion...

You don't have to break a person to fix em... it's just fucked up thinking...  50% of alcoholics (and those are people addicted to alcohol) will stop on their own...  Most kids never have had time to come anywhere near alcoholism... You can talk to the twelve-steppers and they'll tell you "well I started out just like your son".. well no shit.. but not everybody who started out like your son turned out into a wino either.  Most didn't.  Experimentation with substances is part of growing up.  No kid is going to listen to the "don't do it... it's BAAAD.. it'll fry your brain.. irreperably (this is your brain...) Pot will make you kill your girlfriend (see Reefer Madness)bla bla bla SCARE.!!!!"... It's actually counter-productive to do that, since the kid is going to try it, no matter what you say, and when he does, if he finds out you or the govt is full of shit, it's gonna make him think there is no risk at all.. and for that matter.. if pot isn't dangerous... the government says not to try crack either...  People expect their kids to be honest to them about drugs while simultaneously feeding them blatant bullshit propaganda.  And you think the kids can't sniff out hypocracy?

Here's my advice:  Explain substances as they are:

Alcohol: relaxes people, decreases inhibitions facilitating conversation, dangerous to use alone (leads to dependency), physically dependent if used too often.

Pot: Effects dependent on strain and person.  Some people just get dopey on pot... but it might be the strain since some strains do that.  It's like granny smith vs Red Delicious apples.  Generally: pot makes people more creative, insigful, can increase physical coordination in some people, facilitates wordplay, philosphical conversations... Negative effects: short term memory loss (depends also on familiarity with effects).  Can be addictive if used every day (but i doubt the addictiveness since a bunch of people who I know used to be daily smokers but quit since they just "grew out of it".  A vast number of college students prefer to get blind drunk...  Alcohol is far more dangerous.

Well that's all I ever tried...  As far as hard drugs go...  Well I don't know anybody who's just tried em.  So that's probably a bad sign.

Sorry for ranting... sleep deprived (again)

i think this kid is going to be okay somehow, he's got one person who is there no matter what and one person is all it needs

Keep going, you're doing great  :wink:

ditto

[Anonymous]

for people who have loved ones who have "a relationship with drugs" as my daughter so pithily put it try these sites:

www.harmreductiontherapy.org

and www.harmreductioneducation.com

A more rational approach.  Here's a funny thing: my daughter told me that it was in the fifth grade during a DARE lecture that she intuited that she would one day "have a relationship with drugs".   Until then it had not occured to her.

[Anonymous]

that second site should be www.harmeductioncounseling.com.  And can google harm reduction and read about more rational approaches to the issue.

[TheWho]

Psy wrote:

Now i'm probably gonna get blasted for this but this is what AlAnon is supposed to teach……

Dam it Psy, there is no need to apologize for your views, you have done this before.  It is important that you continue to decide for yourself what is important based on your own observations, experiences and background not solely on the experience of others.  Working with a group for long periods of time (like here at fornits) you run the risk of losing your desire for independent thinking and the healthy  exercise of continuously convincing yourself that the information before you is true and reasonable.  You have extremely strong independent thinking skills which will take you far,  so don’t fall into the trap of taking the easy path of uncritically accepting what a group determines to be right.

Unlike Critical thinking, which is the ability to process information logically,  independent thinking skills can be lost if they are not exercised constantly.
If you feel parts of AlAnon have value and others don’t you are showing the desire to find your own truth based on your value system and personal perspective.  For example, you may abhor Benchmark but at the same time be able to find the newly hired receptionist attractive, kind and form a healthy relationship with her because you have the ability to separate the two……. Anyway, I am making this comment because I have seen too many people come in here with fresh ideas and then lose that ability because of pressure to conform to ideas accepted by the majority, no slight to fornits intended, although the pressure seems to be higher here than most.

Sorry if this results in derailing or high jacking the thread, it is not my intent and needed to be said.

[Oz girl]

you know who I came to this forum with no ideas about the wider industry except for puzzlement over why a relative was thinking of sending their kid to a school which banned packages of cookies from the child's grandma.
i then deliberately read as widely as i could on the subject and spoke to parents and kids both in favour of the industry and against it. i also looked at the meanspirited tone of the marketing of most programs website.
A pattern began to emerge. I had plently of people whose experience of the industry was hideous wanting to speak to me.
There were also many kids who defended their time in the industry by telling me it was awful but they needed a couple of yrs of hell to stop stealing, fucking, sulking, drugtaking or whatever.
Some parents also told me thast the industry was far from perfect but they felt that this institutional environment kept their off spring out of trouble.
Not one kid has yet told me that she enjoyed her time in "the program" not even those who support it.
It was with all of this information that I came to the conclusion that the industry was morally reprihensible and that in the name of profit it was willing to play on the fears of parents and punish their kids. So I dont think it is "the group" on fornits that have lead me to the conclusion that this industry and those within it are a disgrace.

[exhausted]

I second that Oz Girl - there's alot to be learned from Fornits, every day I thank my (and my kids) lucky stars that I was asked to have a look before even considering a program

okay i've taken the hard route, its really not as easy as I probably mke it sound, but it's the lesser of two evils, it seems to be working slowly but surely and I really believe in my heart that my kids won't end up hating me, time will tell

Oddly enough, the eldest has read through this site but still says to me that i should have sent him to a program, either he doesn't get it, he thinks they'd never be able to break him or he hates me enough to want to be in that situation (he has said several times how he'd love to go even now and let them try to break him or any kid around him, he thinks I should send him so he can teach the other kids to fight back - mnaybe he DOES get it) :-?

[TheWho]

you know who I came to this forum with no ideas about the wider industry except for puzzlement over why a relative was thinking of sending their kid to a school which banned packages of cookies from the child's grandma.
i then deliberately read as widely as i could on the subject and spoke to parents and kids both in favour of the industry and against it. i also looked at the meanspirited tone of the marketing of most programs website.
A pattern began to emerge. I had plently of people whose experience of the industry was hideous wanting to speak to me.
There were also many kids who defended their time in the industry by telling me it was awful but they needed a couple of yrs of hell to stop stealing, fucking, sulking, drugtaking or whatever.
Some parents also told me thast the industry was far from perfect but they felt that this institutional environment kept their off spring out of trouble.
Not one kid has yet told me that she enjoyed her time in "the program" not even those who support it.
It was with all of this information that I came to the conclusion that the industry was morally reprihensible and that in the name of profit it was willing to play on the fears of parents and punish their kids. So I dont think it is "the group" on fornits that have lead me to the conclusion that this industry and those within it are a disgrace.

I think this is true of almost everyone here.  
My point was that you should not be afraid to bring your own perspective to the conversation even though it may not sit well with others...i.e. Lets say you read an article that stated the nutritional value of most TBS's food seems to be a bit higher than most private institutions.  You may find this interesting and place this in your memory for future conversations but you may not want to share it here on fornits because it would not be taken well or accepted because it would show something positive regarding TBS’s.  The act of not sharing (or holding back) your views based on you past experiences and observation slightly diminishes the strength of your independent thinking skills each time.
I am not saying you do this, Oz Girl, just an example.

[Troll Control]

I think this is true of almost everyone here.  
My point was that you should not be afraid to bring your own perspective to the conversation even though it may not sit well with others...i.e. Lets say you read an article that stated the nutritional value of most TBS's food seems to be a bit higher than most private institutions.  You may find this interesting and place this in your memory for future conversations but you may not want to share it here on fornits because it would not be taken well or accepted because it would show something positive regarding TBS’s.  The act of not sharing (or holding back) your views based on you past experiences and observation slightly diminishes the strength of your independent thinking skills each time.
I am not saying you do this, Oz Girl, just an example.

Yeah, Oz, you should show independent thinking skills like this:

Just when you think someone has sunk to lowest level humanly possible, you get this:

Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.

This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!

"Sure, DJ, of course it is possible.  The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also..."

 ::eek3::

You ne3d to think out of the box like this, Oz.  TheWho thinks there shouldn't be abuse hotlines in facilities because the kids might "order 100 pizzas" or "The guy on the abuse hotline could talk dirty to the kids also."

Now that's a guy you should be taking your lead from.  A true independent thinker[/i].  He's so independent, in fact, that he's the only one on earth who has these thoughts! ops:

[Oz girl]

in some places they prolly would order pizza becuase they havent eaten in a yr!!!!! They should then just pay for it with the parental fee money which has not been going to any food or education!

[exhausted]

I dare you to order it for them,  :lol:

Does it work the same as it does here? pizza guy turns up and you pay him cash when he gets there?

order a thousand  :rofl: