Just because I needed to

[Anonymous]

"saying program is a "consequance". Real help is not a punishment. The problem with programmers is that they get you to confuse these notions. Punishment hurts it does not help."

They tried to help before they sent him away the first time.
How do you help someone who doesn't want Help?

"I had no clue how to function in the real world".

THis was one of many arguments I used to help get him out before

I kind of feel like this is a vicious circle, I understand that TBS is way to radical of an approach but there has to be something.
I don't think it's right to just let a kid do whatever they want, there has to be some kind of boundries.

Thanks everyone for the input.

I kind of feel like i'm not making any forward progress today.  
 

The "problem" we are discussing- the kid not doing what his parents want is  the parents' "problem" not the kids'. That the kid isnt making them happy is THEIR PROBLEM. It is their problem in the same way having a bad job, a bad car, or a crappy TV is their problem. This has nothing to do with the "problems" of the kid and all to do with the desires of the parent. So lets seperate the parents problems form the kids' problems as they are completely differnt


No doubt alot of their desires are valid ones but they have they created an environment where having their valid desires met have become an unfair expectaion.

Have u ever seen the movie MOmmy Dearest? In it Joan Crawford abuses her daughter for not using wire hangers, talking back , not finishing her steak. These are all valid desires.for a mother to have for her daughter. But the way the woman goes about having them met, the way she raises her child in general turns them into things which cease to be valid desires. The way you describe this kids home life, where taking your parents car without their permission is "stealing" , putting him in program is an atmosphere similar to the one depicted in this movie Their "boundaries" are no longer fair.

So now lets look at the kids problems. His actions arent problems

"Not doing what your parents like" is not  a "problem". A problem is something like abusive parents, physical illness, being bullied: things that you have to deal with that make your life hard.
Your own actions are not problems, they are choices, or reactions, or damage that stems FROM problems.

You can "cure" problems. You cant "cure" reactions. You can stop a reaction but the problem is still there- and the problem is what you guys are trying to help right?

So stop worrying so much about his behavior. Focus on his problems. His problem is living with unsupportive abusive people. Internal damage from program and other issues I am not privy to. Help him with these, stop worrying about what he does that annoys you

demanding certain behaviors isnt fair right now. Let him be a person not a serivce. Dont bully him.

Did u try what I suggested yet?
DId u tell him if he came to your place he would NEVER NEVER NEVER be sent to program no matter what in a million years?
Did you tell him you want to give him a safe place?
Did you tell him what was done to him was evil?
Did you tell him you want to help him press charges?
Did you take him to a lawyer?
Did you speak about the abuse he suffered?
Did you tell him to come to this website?

Why dont you try these things first before worrying about what his behaviors will be in the future. Right now we are trying to solve his most immediate problem- living with an abusive parent.

I think another good idea is helping move in with his freinds. Sometimes people need to break away froma  dysfunctional family. This way you are no longer "directly responding" to probelms. You are no longer weighed down by them. You have new supportive imput. You are reinvigerated and you "heal" your problems.

Have the kid come to this website

[Anonymous]

Guest

here are the short answers.

Did u try what I suggested yet?   yes & no

DId u tell him if he came to your place(YES) he would NEVER NEVER NEVER be sent to program no matter what in a million years?  NO because I though it would work out at home, I have seen some positive changes in his parents but he made alot of promises when they decided to let him stay home that he hasn't kept.I'm not saying that it's only his fault tho.

Did you tell him you want to give him a safe place?
Yes I did,  He said "I have no friends there so no I don't want to" stay with you
.
Did you tell him what was done to him was evil?
Not directly but I think he bascilly new how I felt about TBS and that I was trying to get him out.

Did you tell him you want to help him press charges?
No and don't blow a gasket on this one but when I talked to him about abuse at the school he said he wasn't abused and he didn't understand why I would be asking him those kind of questions.

Did you take him to a lawyer? No

Did you speak about the abuse he suffered? No

Did you tell him to come to this website? No but I believe he is aware it exists.

[Antigen]

Antigen's Ghost

You seem to have an amazing ability to put into words issues I'm still trying to figure out in my own head.

Well thank you! I've had a lot of time to think about this stuff. But that's really cool to hear because it's always been my 'way with words' that's gotten me into trouble.

"You might want to consider getting the juvenile courts involved"
I'd be scared that I would be cut off completely, like I said earlier I'm walking a fine line here.

I feel ya there too. I have a niece in a program now. Would love to talk to her but, well, being who I am, that would be nothing but trouble till she's able to communicate unmonitored.

"(sorry, I peeked at your logging inf)"  How did you do that?

Oh, I admin this site. Sort of. Really, Kelly does the tech admin and hosting now, but I still have admin access as far as the forum is concerned.

Seriously  though I didn't vote for our current governor based solely
on his ties to the TBS industry. I learned that information from this web site.

Again I have more to say to your responses though I don't have the time right now to go on but please hang in here with me I will be back.

That's cool. Remember this too, and I think most older program vets would agree. Trying counts. My dad tried, fell down some times, but tried the best he could. When I got older and understood things better I knew I could trust him. My brother didn't do much except for understand. Even just that has been my anchor sometimes.

[Antigen]

Did you tell him you want to help him press charges?
No and don't blow a gasket on this one but when I talked to him about abuse at the school he said he wasn't abused and he didn't understand why I would be asking him those kind of questions.

I have to throw this in, bear with me please. I can't explain it without retelling a story.

When I got out, HRS (Florida's CYS agency then) was hot and heavy on investigating Straight. I landed up in the middle of that, not by choice, but because my parents and program staff had had me extradited from Georgia for the 'crime' of being a chronic runaway. So they were my only allies in getting what I needed; freedom and space to clear my head and figure out what I wanted to do with myself. When they asked me if I had been abused, I thought of the couple of days when I was openly rebelling and they had had other program inmates bounce me around the inside of a timeout room for a number of hours, broken my nose and then had them sit on me on a cold concrete floor for a couple of hours. And I thought about all the times I'd seen others similarly treated and far worse. But I said no, and I wasn't lying to cover for anybody. I honestly thought it wouldn't be fair or right to use the word abuse when we all knew the consequences of misbehaving.

In my case, misbehaving meant refusing to apologize to Group for having run away. I had been out a couple of weeks, at least, and regained enough clarity to remember the more commonly accepted definition of the term "honesty", which was our first and most impotent rule. Instead of apologizing, begging forgiveness, professing my insanity (step #1) and begging for help, I said "No, it wouldn't be honest. I'm sorry I let myself get dragged back in here, though." I do not remember that trip. I remember turning up at my sister's house, staying for a short while, I remember the halfway house where they talked me into trusting my sister. Then I was sitting in group. Then I was getting roughed up for the above.

I was brainwashed. The shit works! I often wish I had had the clarity at the time to pursue meaningful legal action against these sadistic lunatics. But I don't regret my choice to just walk away. Fact is I did not have the clarity at the time and, if I had played it that way, it would probably have just made me a different kind of lunatic and done no good at all.

Some of these kids posting lately do have that kind of clarity. Some of them are even lucky enough to have the support of good family the help them through. I expect great things from these kids! These are the ones who will make peace in the middle east or produce the art that sparks the mind that does. I wasn't there.

The other event that's crystallized in my mind is a short conversation I had with my dad in the foyer  of the Sarasota courthouse. The judge had given me permission to leave the state for the holidays and I would be 18 long before they could force me back for another hearing. I wanted to talk to my dad, tell him what I was thinking, see what he was thinking. I told him they were trying to get me to press charges against him and my mom. That scared him. And that disappointed me. As if I wouldn't know I could do that?? He was still into the kool aid too much to remember who he was talking to. I told him I wasn't going to do that and he was genuinely confused and asked me why. I told him "because you taught me better than that." It was a plea for him to remember who I was as opposed to the fictional character I'd been forced to play for so long. And eventually he did.

You're right to tread lightly and thoughtfully. You're my heroin. If I had had one friend or relative like you, my whole life would have been different.  ::kiss::

[Anonymous]

Update,

He ranaway and hasn't been home  for a couple of nites.
He won't answer his cell phone either.

I was told "DO NOT" try to contact him.  
tho I called yesterday not knowing that he hadn't been home and he did not take my call.

They haven't report him missing to the police as of yet, they may tonite though.  Does anyone know the pro's & Cons to either or both sides of this?

I'm afraid of involving the police because then you have no control about what happens.
On the other hand I'm also worried about him being gone and is he OK

[nimdA]

Remember what ginger said earlier though about being able to have your juvenile record cleared on its own by the age of 18.

Weigh it out...

Juvie...

Program...

Where are you from and do the jUvies have a record of violence that you should worry about?

Because programs most definitely have a record of mentally cornholing children. That and killing them. Kiddie prison's aren't much fun either, and kids die in them also. Yet.. it has a set period of incarceration.. 3 meals a day no matter what.. shower.. clothes.. TV.. books.. Phone.. legal representation...

Programs... You get what they want you to have and that isn't much.

[Anonymous]

Three Springs Waygookin

"Where are you from and do the jUvies have a record of violence that you should worry about? "

I live in the sunshine state so yes they have a long bad ugly
history. Think Martin Lee Anderson.

"I'm afraid of involving the police because then you have no control about what happens.
On the other hand I'm also worried about him being gone and is he OK"

So why am I asking these studip question?
Because I've gotten some great advice from this forum and I continue to look here for support and advice which is the only place I have to go to.
 
Examples below

"exhausted wrote
then I let them out to survve, they knew the consequences, they knew they were not my consequences and I would not accept any responsibility for anything that came of bad choices made by them"

"Antigen's Ghost wrote
"You guys just don't seem to understand the gravity of what we all are trying to tell you. You can overcome a juvenile record. You can even come back from an adult conviction if that happens. You never, ever get over having your very mind violated and personality fundamentally rearranged. This is NOT the lessor of two evils we're talking about. It's more evil than you care to imagine."

plus there is a lot more that I haven't highlighted

[Karass]

Remember what ginger said earlier though about being able to have your juvenile record cleared on its own by the age of 18.

It ain't as simple as that in many states, where the whole "get tough on crime" movement has watered down what used to be an attitude that juveniles should not be burdened for life with the record of their youthful transgressions.

In my state, not only is a juvenile record not "cleared on its own" -- you must fill out paperwork and ask the court to do it...and they might deny your request -- but some records still remain. Some states, for example, pass along info on juvenile adjudications (convictions or guilty pleas) to the DMV, for purposes of restricting the juvenile's driving privileges, even if the criminal offense has nothing to do with driving. Even when you turn 18, and even if the court expunges your juvenile record, the DMV still has it's records for all to see...like insurance companies for example.

Weigh it out...

Juvie...

Program...

They both suck, just in different ways. How about door number three -- none of the above?

[nimdA]

Three Springs Waygookin

"Where are you from and do the jUvies have a record of violence that you should worry about? "

I live in the sunshine state so yes they have a long bad ugly
history. Think Martin Lee Anderson.

I worked at The Eckerd's Camp E-Kill-U to in Silver Springs, the same one that the Wiltsky boy died at.. I'm pretty familiar with the state of Florida. The YDC's aren't a joking matter in that state, or at least they weren't when I was down there.

I would still look into the local conditions. See if you can scare up some numbers. If anything you can post them on the Public Gulag's forum for us.

[Anonymous]

Update,

He ranaway and hasn't been home  for a couple of nites.
He won't answer his cell phone either.

I was told "DO NOT" try to contact him.  
tho I called yesterday not knowing that he hadn't been home and he did not take my call.

They haven't report him missing to the police as of yet, they may tonite though.  Does anyone know the pro's & Cons to either or both sides of this?

I'm afraid of involving the police because then you have no control about what happens.
On the other hand I'm also worried about him being gone and is he OK

but I thought he wasnt your kid but a relatives.?
wouldnt they contact the police?
Listen 3 springs why r u bringing up prison?

it is obvious why this kid ran away
his parents abuse him. All you guys care about superficlai issues- "bourndaries". COmpletley inantentive to him as a human being and only the "service" he provivdes.

DOnt put him in prison are you mad? Becasue he cant live with people who threaten his life he should go to prison? You shouldnt have threatened him with program what do u expect. him to wait for possible death at any moment.

Its obvious this kid is sooo confused. No wonder he doesnt think hes been abused. He lives in a dark underworld where terrible things can be done to him - like put him iin prison- for his own good. He thinks this is all just a part of life. He doesnt realize emancipation is an option(of course its not that easy & who wants to wait in prison until someone says your an adult)

Id say help this kid run away. DONT CALL THE POLICE Contact a lwayer to help him get emancupaion. When he contacts u talk to him about that You shoul have told him to come to this website it may have given him some coping ideas.

Let him escape to a better place. If he calls to ask u for help than help him. Dont return him to his parents or authorities. Mabye search for him on ur own . If u find him do all those things we talked about-this website-lawyer-press charges-emancipation- stop worrying about rules!
thats all. God this sucks

[Anonymous]

but I thought he wasnt your kid but a relatives.?
wouldnt they contact the police?

I am a relative. The parents didn't tell me until today that he ran away. and It Is them that would (may)contact the police.
I'm trying to understand the pros and cons so I can recommend weather or not to call the police.  My gut says don't call but but I'm looking for advice to back it up. But I also like to get both sides of the story.

Contact a lwayer to help him get emancupaion.

We actually looked into this briefly but found it likely isn't possible for several reasons that are to long to explain.

I would still look into the local conditions. See if you can scare up some numbers. If anything you can post them on the Public Gulag's forum for us.

I saw you said this before and I haven't had the chance, how would I go about doing this?  know that we live in different counties if that matters.

God this sucks

That's putting it mildly

[Anonymous]

dont call the police
to my mind the kid is setting his own bounderies
ie. dont hur my brain, dont threaten me with furth brain injury, i have enough trouble now. I wont take this, Im leaving this is past my limit

I hope he makes it. If he contacts u help him in living seperately . Try to look into emancipation. It is not impossible. If he has a will there is often a way. Hes being abused & doesnt want that to continue that might be pretty convincing

[Antigen]

They haven't report him missing to the police as of yet, they may tonite though. Does anyone know the pro's & Cons to either or both sides of this?

I'm afraid of involving the police because then you have no control about what happens.
On the other hand I'm also worried about him being gone and is he OK

Aside from the parents' word, how do you know he ran and was not snatched? I'd try and contact some of his friends if I were in your shoes. Face to face so they know you're sincere and what you're asking for; just that he contact you somehow, blocked number phone call, post card, w/e, to let you know he's alright and not back in a program. It'll also let him know that, if and when he decides he's in trouble he can count on you.

[Anonymous]

Aside from the parents' word, how do you know he ran and was not snatched?

I believe they wouldn't lie to me and that I could tell by the tone of their voice if they were.I also saw him logged into his my space account today.  Dam I wish I new how to use myspace I only know how to lurk there.  

I'd try and contact some of his friends if I were in your shoes. Face to face so they know you're sincere and what you're asking for;

Great idea, i'll be in that area tomorrow so I will.I wish I could get over there tonite but I just can't

any thoughts on calling the police assuming he hasn't been snatched?

Thanks for hanging in here with me

[Anonymous]

using myspace is easy establish a user id.
it'll ask u to register, register.
then with your new ID contact him.
it has prompts to follow.

But the problem is u can track someone through myspaceand he'll know that and not want ot risk that. SO if u contact him through there just give him a "message"- like u r there 4 him wont send him to program or deceive him to get him to appear. That u r totally up front & wont make him do  anything he doesnt want to do

dont contact the police.
they wont do anything anyway.
the only way to "hunt" him down is to gt a child hunter (they actually have those)

Contacting his freinds face to face is a good idea. Just tell them to give them the message that u want to help him, if u can & set him up somewhere safe until he is 18 and free.. Mention you want to discuss his legal rights so he doesnt have to live like a fugitive Stress that u will never decieve him or trick him in anyway