Just because I needed to

[Antigen]

The parents tried to help him at home for at least three years before they sent him away. He was told what the consequences to his actions would be and he just doesn?t seem to care.

Maybe he doesn't believe you? Or maybe the consequences you fear if he does things his way don't bother him as much as the consequences he forsees if he does things your way.

[Anonymous]

"Maybe he doesn't believe you? Or maybe the consequences you fear if he does things his way don't bother him as much as the consequences he forsees if he does things your way"

I'm not sure I understand

Are you saying he wants to go back to a TBS?

[Antigen]

I went to his house today to see his behavior and he acted like a shit head.
I think part of his issue is that he has no respect for anyone.

Well, if you came to my house on the weekend to observe my behavior, I'd be pretty shitty to you too.

But being that I don?t believe in these programs can a former programmie
Or anyone suggest something else to try.

Yeah, instead of trying to coerce and threaten him into adopting your view of things, try earning his respect.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, instead of trying to coerce and threaten him into adopting your view of things, try earning his respect.

Great advice!! first of all I don't coerce and threaten and I'll be sure to let him know it's OK to steal cars, sell drugs and not attend school.

other then that I don't want to go there with you

LYMI

[Anonymous]

It sounds like he may know that going back is inevitable, not wanting to talk to therapists, especially with statements like ?You cant make me?.  Which is a challenge or call for help in it self.  Not sure what his first stay was like or where his parents heads are at  right now or what they told him but it sounds like he has pretty much conceded to what ever is coming next.  Maybe going back to a TBS is better, in his eyes, than living with his parents.  
When talking to my daughter (after she graduated) she knew the final option was coming also and she said looking back that part of her wanted someone to take over her life for her ?.so he may not want to work on himself he may be just waiting for the next step or even forcing their hand?.there is so much we don?t know about him and his situation that it is difficult to give sound advice here.

I really hope this boy gets the help he needs and deserves........ keep us informed of his progress

Thanks WHO, I do appreciate your input and i'm sorry I lost it with the last poster

[Anonymous]

Doesn't it ever get boring talking to fake parents?  :rofl:

[Antigen]

"Maybe he doesn't believe you? Or maybe the consequences you fear if he does things his way don't bother him as much as the consequences he forsees if he does things your way"

I'm not sure I understand

Are you saying he wants to go back to a TBS?

No, the talk was of death, insanity or jail--the contrived consequences they scare all the parents with, not the contrived consequence they sell them. Maybe this kid has just been through enough, paid his ticket and had about enough of working the program on himself. I have to say, if all the adults in his life are sending him the message that his brain could use a little more washing then I don't blame him for being shitty to the whole lot of you.

Just put yourself in his shoes and see what the world looks like from there.

[Antigen]

Great advice!! first of all I don't coerce and threaten and I'll be sure to let him know it's OK to steal cars, sell drugs and not attend school.

Wouldn't matter cause you haven't got his respect. But I'll tell you I've known a lot of people in my life who have been through programs and a lot of others who were into drug dealing and even car theft (though I suspect the term as used here is an expansive, emotional ploy to describe taking the rents' car out w/o permission). Given the choice, hands down, I'd let my teenaged kid figure things out on their own before I'd send them off for reprograming.

You guys just don't seem to understand the gravity of what we all are trying to tell you. You can overcome a juvenile record. You can even come back from an adult conviction if that happens. You never, ever get over having your very mind violated and personality fundamentally rearranged. This is NOT the lessor of two evils we're talking about. It's more evil than you care to imagine.

Contemporary programs speed up the reform process through the use of more psychologically sophisticated and dangerous procedures to accomplish destabilization. In contemporary programs the process is sometimes carried forward on a large group basis, which reduces the ability of managers to detect symptoms of impending psychiatric emergencies. In addition, in some of the "therapeutic" ideologies espoused by thought reforming organizations, extreme emotional distress is valued positively, as a sign of progress. Studies of contemporary programs have reported on a variety of psychological injuries related to the reform process. Injuries include psychosis, major depressions, manic episodes, and debilitating anxiety (Glass, Kirsch, and Parris 1977, Haaken and Adams 1983, Heide and Borkovec 1983; Higget and Murray 1983; Kirsch and Glass 1977; Yalom and Lieberman 1971; Lieberman 1987; Singer and Ofshe 1990).
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=12

[Anonymous]

Antigen's Ghost


You've given me alot to digest and think about, I really do appreciate it.  

Thanks

[Antigen]

Thanks for that!

Please let me know what you think of all that.

[nimdA]

Goes right along with an dispute I'm having on another site. My advise lately to some parents has been for them to look into what the local juvenile halls conditions actually are. I think most have been surprised that they aren't as bad as people make them out to be. This doesn't always hold to be true, but I think it bears investigation when faced with these problems.

[Anonymous]

Antigen's Ghost

Every story has 2 sides and I was ready to hang it up on the kid because I was at a loss as to what to do and how to help him.

You have given me an avenue to take to try to help him
Thank You!  Thank You ! Thank You!

I have more to say to your responses because they are very powerful and you hit the nail on the head in many areas,
though I don't have the time right now to go on but please hang in there with me I will be back later

[TheWho]

Just a note:

I think this can serve as a good example of why people shouldn?t be so quick to write posters off as trolls.  There were many here who could have used their experiences to assist this person who has a family member in crisis and instead chose to ridicule or dismiss the poster as a fake.  This person stayed on and eventually got some valuable insight that seems to have assisted him/her but I am sure many others would have moved on and have in the past??  If you think of it this way that whether or not the story is true maybe is secondary ?you can respond to it as a hypothetical example which could assist many parents or family members that may be reading here on fornits and have similar problems?? if you are truly sincere about wanting to help some of these kids and their families you should give people more latitude and take on more of a mental attitude of credence towards these posters or if this is too difficult for you, try to refrain from posting all on the specific subject.

Dont mean to lecture, I have just seen this too many times and thought I should point it out.

[Anonymous]

New posters don't use words like 'programmies', or bother using text formatting... the fake parent troll got boring a year ago. NExt please.. (or at least get better at it)

[Anonymous]

Antigen's Ghost

?You never, ever get over having your very mind violated and personality fundamentally rearranged. This is NOT the lessor of two evils we're talking about. It's more evil than you care to imagine.?

This statement alone is very powerful and why I know I need to continue to do what I can to keep him home!!

?You guys just don't seem to understand the gravity of what we all are trying to tell you?

I fully understand the gravity of what we all are trying to tell me - that?s why I fought for eight months to bring him home!

I have to walk a fine line in this situation because I am to some degree being
blamed for his lack of success(not the best choice of words) by both him and his parents for the first nine months he was gone. And I have already been told that if they send him back that I will be allowed NO contact.  

?Wouldn't matter cause you haven't got his respect?.  

How do I gain his respect quickly?  

?Just put yourself in his shoes and see what the world looks like from there.?

I?m trying to put myself in his shoes and I can?t understand why he won?t follow a few simple rules. 1. Get your GED(it would only take about 2 months)  2. Be respectful to people  3. Clean up your own mess when you make it. 4- Be home on time 5-Stay off drugs. He did get a job though.

?If all the adults in his life are sending him the message that his brain could use a little more washing then I don't blame him for being shitty to the whole lot of you.?

Perfectly said. I?m sure that?s a big part of where his head is at ? unfortunately his parents aren?t willing to put up with it.  I was hoping to convince him that it would be much easier to follow the rules for the next 9 months until he turns eighteen then it would be to go back to a TBS.  Maybe I?m wrong  in my thinking but it just seems like the logical choice and that it shouldn?t be that hard.  If you feel that I?m wrong in my thinking PLEASE make suggestions.

?(though I suspect the term as used here is an expansive, emotional ploy to describe taking the rents' car out w/o permission)?
 You are correct but he doesn?t have a drivers license and the parents are very concerned about their liability if something happens.

?Well, if you came to my house on the weekend to observe my behavior, I'd be pretty shitty to you too.?  

FWIW, I didn?t just go there just to see his behavior, we had a family function going on.

I hope this makes sense to you and that you will continue with your input as it has been extremely helpful to me.

"New posters don't use words like 'programmies', or bother using text formatting... the fake parent troll got boring a year ago. NExt please.. (or at least get better at it)"

I spent 8 months reading Fornits, how do you think I new these programs were so terrible.