Lone Star Expeditions

[Troll Control]

What gives creedence to the claim that he is alive from the people who make it.

They are big fans of Elvis, they don’t really believe it themselves, but they find it fun to keep him alive in their minds.  People know this so they capitalize on it by dressing up like him and getting paid to entertain others.

Just like you and Aspen.  You're an Aspen wannabe!

[Deborah]

Credibility of the poster does come into play.  I think everyone that comes on here knows each has a position.  I try to bring balance to the dialog by pointing out the pieces that are left out.

You haven't brought anything relevant to this discussion, except to quote an anonymous poster claiming to be an ex staff. Could just as well be someone in the PR dept at Aspen, sitting right next to you.

What you typically see here is the dirty laundry, mistakes that are made which should be brought out.

Reality check. Notice where you are. Is this ST, or any other program forum? No, it's a survivor forum. In actuality, Fornits offers a different perspective, and fills in the missing pieces, so parents can see the entire picture. There's plenty of industry propoganda on the internet from discrete misrepresentation to outright lies. This is one of a few places where you'll find the dirty laundry that they are not required to divulge to prospective clients.

LSE Counselor gave one perspective and brought to the table what he knew and others piped in with comments like:
 “Ian August even passed Skyline Journey's sophisticated field test for flushin out fakers. Raise their arm and drop it in/near their face. If they flench, they're fakin. He was left to bake in the sun and shortly thereafter died, while the imbecile in charge of his well-being hid behind a bush waiting to catch Ian in the act.

This is a good example of why your idiotic attempts to derail threads gets split. You take things out of context, misquote people, throw in ignorant and irrelavent analogies and information- to distract from the discussion.
I was responding to your question, not the alleged LSE staff:

But if the child dies along the way why blame the counselors or EMTs?

And my response was appropriate response for the question YOU asked:
Depends on the circumstances m'dear. And in most cases time was lost due to the so-called counselors letting the kid sit and die because they erroneously assumed s/he was faking. Ian August even passed Skyline Journey's sophisticated field test for flushin out fakers. Raise their arm and drop it in/near their face. If they flench, they're fakin. He was left to bake in the sun and shortly thereafter died, while the imbecile in charge of his well-being hid behind a bush waiting to catch Ian in the act.
Yeh, these are the type idiots I'd want my kid in the blazing/freezing desert with. I put more trust in "Ozzy". He doesn't have an agenda and most reasonably intellegent people know how to dial 911, even when they're stoned.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=30

Staff should err on the side of caution. And waiting around to flush them out, takes valuable time that could've saved thier lives.

I didn’t see a credible source or a link to back this up, either.  Is this fact?  Someone’s opinion? Sarcasm?

Fact. You can read about the field test and the sadistic and neglectful treatment of Ian here:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 136#235136

When LSE Counselor gave his account he was meet with:
“Talk more about what you don't like about Aspen. That might be useful.”

And, how is that not valid? Why wouldn't that be part of the big picture?
I'd still like to hear what s/he didn't like about Aspen, and why s/he left, if s/he is who s/he says s/he is.

Because some people here on fornits don’t want to hear the whole truth, just the small parts that help them to justify painting the entire industry as evil.

You sh0uld just be thankful that you and other industry advocates are allowed on this site. Always bitching because you can't control everything. Get over it. This ain't program.

[Troll Control]

"Last Word Larry" (The Who) just HAS to get the last word in.  This is his trolling style.  If he had his way, every topic on the board would end with his post.  Typical control freak behavior.  This is why every thread he gets involved in becomes a giant waste of space and time...

[TheWho]

Fact. You can read about the field test and the sadistic and neglectful treatment of Ian here:

I traced it back and it is based on interviews of anonymous people or “Guests” as we call them here.  Like you said they could be sitting right next to you, we don’t know.  LSE Counselor is just as credible.

You sh0uld just be thankful that you and other industry advocates are allowed on this site. Always bitching because you can't control everything. Get over it. This ain't program.

So if you had your way people would have to go thru a special screening and training to be able to post here?  Maybe a 2 day seminar to weed out the malcontents?  I didn’t see any complaints, just answering a question posed to me.  Never asked for any control just pointing out my position and function is here.  If you don’t want people disagreeing with you why don’t you start a forum like TSW.  Then you can delete the posts you don’t like and keep your own point of view at the forefront.

[Troll Control]

"Last Word Larry" (The Who) just HAS to get the last word in.  This is his trolling style.  If he had his way, every topic on the board would end with his post.  Typical control freak behavior.  This is why every thread he gets involved in becomes a giant waste of space and time...

i told ya so!   :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

[Deborah]

Fact. You can read about the field test and the sadistic and neglectful treatment of Ian here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 136#235136

I traced it back and it is based on interviews of anonymous people or “Guests” as we call them here.  Like you said they could be sitting right next to you, we don’t know.  LSE Counselor is just as credible.

Blatant lie. This article is based on dozens of interviews in Oklahoma, Texas and Utah. Scenes and dialogue about the events leading to Ian August's death are taken from a transcript of the 9-1-1 call to the Millard County Sheriff's Office; a timeline constructed by Skyline Journey; a transcript of the preliminary hearing in Utah v. Mark Wardle, Leigh Hale and WOW Developments; Skyline Journey daily progress reports kept up to July 13, 2002; witness statements; incident reports filed by the Millard County Sheriff's Office; and a journal kept by Ian August.

[Oz girl]

The surprising thing about Ian August's death is not that he died but that he was the only one. What did they expect would happen when they forced kids to hike through tough terrain in such high
 temperatures? I was shocked that they would entertain such a ridiculous notion but this is what happens when the on the ground staff have absolutely no education in the area because they are not required to! The fact that the on the gruond staff are paid so shittily so that anyone with 1/2 a brain would not want to take the job speaks volumes about the mentality of the industry.
What it would say to me if i were a parent was that while i am willing to pay 15000 for Aspen to help my kid, the company does not see that it is worth hriing professionals to work with the kid in a daily basis. Who you recon it would be ok with you to put highschool educated staff directly in charge of your child as long as htey have good 1st aid skills. Apparently they do not even have this though. The "Aspen staffer" who posted here said they thought the boy was joking. well it seems they often do! Perhaps the 1st aid training should include an emphasis on eternal vigilance. But as this is at odds with the tough love model I dont hold my breath.

Nature sure taught these kids a lesson about "natural consequences"

[TheWho]

I can guarantee that corporate got involved immediately and told LSE that they didn’t want to see anything but “Asses and elbows” until the root cause was determined and the  appropriate corrective action was put in place so that this would never happen again.
I am sure many changes have taken place to their process fairly quickly once they determined the root cause of Ians death, whether it was attributed to the heat, stopping of medication, lack of training, preexisting condition or a combination of all of them.  No corporation is going to allow kids to die and just say “Oh, well it wasn’t our fault, sue me”.
From a business perspective I am sure they have made every effort to resolve this issue.

[Oz girl]

From a business perspective I am sure they have made every effort to resolve this issue.

This is in a nutshell the probelm with a for profit industry of this nature. A company is always first and foremost accountable to the shareholders. Otherwise there is no point. It seems also that many places clean up their act after the fact. This simply is not good enough.
The problem is with the whole philosophy behind it. subjecting someone to in the case of wilderness 6 weeks or so of physical  and emotional discomfort will do one of 2 things. it will break them and create a "perfect kid" or it will incite rebellion. When it does this it becomes a vicious circle because the kid wont go along without penalty. (even if the penalty is no help when needed as opposed to physical force) This means staff decide they "wont give in" which then becomes a recepie for disaster. Usually if a kid is continuously faking to go home it is likely to be because they are horribly miserable. The staff are going to assume they are faking at all times so that when they become genuinely ill staff are too busy questioning the nefarious motives of a miserable kid to get help. What a fabulously functional and helpful environment for a difficult and pained youngster! How loving their view of adults must become!

[TheWho]

Oz Girl wrote:

This is in a nutshell the probelm with a for profit industry of this nature. A company is always first and foremost accountable to the shareholders. Otherwise there is no point. It seems also that many places clean up their act after the fact. This simply is not good enough.

I agree 100%, look at the auto industry.  They have been trailing the Asian market for decades and are playing catch-up.  They didn’t learn their lesson on emissions and labor costs and now find themselves years behind the Asians again on hybrid cars.
Companies need to be more proactive instead of reacting to problems as they occur and fixing things after it is too late.

Usually if a kid is continuously faking to go home it is likely to be because they are horribly miserable. The staff are going to assume they are faking at all times so that when they become genuinely ill staff are too busy questioning the nefarious motives of a miserable kid to get help.

This is one of the areas where the mindset needs to change.  Whether thru training or process because I agree, if a kid cries wolf long enough even the best of people are going to turn a deaf ear or react just slow enough to allow a problem to manifest or get out of hand.  Not sure what the answer is but I am sure it is being looked at.

[Deborah]

Whether thru training or process because I agree, if a kid cries wolf long enough even the best of people are going to turn a deaf ear or react just slow enough to allow a problem to manifest or get out of hand.

Who are you "agreeing" with? No one said that.
And No, it's not being looked at, and won't be until program owners/staff start serving prison time for denying kids basic needs and medical attention. Until the window of loss is closed.
What you refuse to acknowledge is that they are trained, in the program's methods. As in the case of Ian August, the head staff was an EMT. But, she chose to defer to the programs method for flushing out fakers rather than professionally access his physical condition and act appropriately.
In Aaron Bacon's case, they still assumed he was faking when he was shitting himself and couldn't stand erect.
Staff let Gina Score lay on the ground 3 hours, dying, because they thought she was faking.
As with Michelle Sutton who was vomitting most of the water she drank.

I could go on, time doesn't allow.

[sick of child torture girl]

the thing is.. program staff really dont think kids are faking ..they know something is wrong with them. What they think is that whatever is wrong with them isnt bad enough to kill them. They let the children suffer permanent disabliity, and  violating body breakdown becasue that is PART of the breaking process.

Afterall, that way the kid is weaker, more supple, more completely dominated and humiliated -more easy to exploit.The kid accepts his new sub human place in life by realizing that he is undeservng of medical attention  like a cheap slave or an abused unloved dog

The only problem for them occurs when the kid does die and they deal with negitive attention or maybe ...charges agasint them!!(so unfari).
This is where their belief in natural causes bs comes into play..after all they made 1000 other kids sick in the same fashion and they pulled through! What they dont understand, becasue they are uneducated morons or willfully complicit authority figures, is that the law of average, means that if you say infect 1000
kids with Barynatis only 5 of them will die, the rest will pull thourgh however wounded. However that does not mean that the 5 that did die, died of natural causes. No, child murderers, they died becasue you shot them up with Barynatis

Likewise, without going into the grautious abuse of denying meds or not listeing when a kid say they are sick, when forcing kids to march,  a child dying is murder.
When you  "force" a group of people to engage in heavy marching, some of them are going to die. Inevitably someone will be pushed past their limit and perish.and when that happens..its murder plain and simple.

NO WHERE ELSE IN THE WOLD ARE PEOPLE FOCED TO MARCH EXCEPT PEOPLES INVOLVED IN EXPLUSION FROM COMMUNITIES. The jews dealt with it, the native americans dealt with it. The perversity and deceptiveness invlved in selling kidnapping and the reenaction of prgrom as therapy is mind boggling


And even when the kid does die. Unless he is writing a journal (they dont burn) or if its on video and they have a dedicated parent willing to do whatever it takes to get charges filed, they'll still get away with it. But you know that wont go on forever ..all it takes is one decent D.A. A reform minded fed....tic toc tic toc

[hanzomon4]

I can guarantee that corporate got involved immediately and told LSE that they didn’t want to see anything but “Asses and elbows” until the root cause was determined and the  appropriate corrective action was put in place so that this would never happen again.
I am sure many changes have taken place to their process fairly quickly once they determined the root cause of Ians death, whether it was attributed to the heat, stopping of medication, lack of training, preexisting condition or a combination of all of them.  No corporation is going to allow kids to die and just say “Oh, well it wasn’t
our fault, sue me”.
From a business perspective I am sure they have made every effort to resolve this issue.

It's the lawsuit, the bad press(resulting in loss money) that drives pseudo-change that only goes skin deep(name/state change or some such) not the fact that kids die. If they truly cared about the kids they wouldn't be so quick to cover their asses with lame excuses like "rare heart defect".

Lets stroll through ISAC's program-related death's page

• Giovanni Aletriz
  February 4, 2006
  
  16 year-old Giovanni Aletriz died after being restrained at Summit Quest in Pennsylvania.
  
  The coroner ruled that Giovanni had an enlarged heart and died from "natural" causes.
  
  However, the state Department of Public Welfare placed Summit Quest on a six-month provisional license after an investigation revealed significant health and safety concerns for the children at the facility.
  
• James White
  December 12, 2005
  
  James White, age 17, also died at Summit Quest in Pennsylvania.
  
  The coroner ruled that James, like Giovanni, had an enlarged heart and died from "natural" causes.
  
• Willie Durden
  October 13, 2005
  
  Willie Durden, age 17, died at the Cypress Creek Juvenile Offender Corrections Center in Citrus County, Florida.
  
  Willie had no pulse when guards found him in his cell.
  
  They did not call for help right away because they thought he was "faking."
  
  An autopsy showed Willie had an enlarged heart.
  
• Linda Harris
  September 18, 2005
  Linda Harris, age 12, died while being forcibly taken to a "time out" room at Chad Youth Enhancement Center in Tennessee.
  
  The coroner attributed Linda's death to a heart attack.
  
  Witnesses have said that Linda was "improperly restrained" at the time of her death.

Wow four heart problems three enlarged two at the same facility.... We should also remember that in the Anderson case the coroner originally said  that Anderson died of a natural cause-Sickle Cell Anemia. However a second coroner ruled his death a homicide. The only reason why Anderson got looked over twice was because the video taped showed his murders and they weren't demon blood cells.

To have two kids die at the same program from this "heart condition" in less then 3 months smells of pure bullshit. The record of the industry not withstanding it's safe to assume that they care more for the pocketbook then the kid and ass covering certainly protects the pocketbook but lets two kids die in less then 3 months.

Also, Deborah hit it right on the head in regard to the medically trained staff. How can a medically trained staff turn off that medical training during the everyday abuse and then turn it on during "real emergencies"?

[Oz girl]

I think you have have misinterpreted my post Who. i did not say that if a kid cries wolf for long enough they will eventually be hurt. What i said was that some kids probably do exaggerate symptoms because they are desperately miserable. The focus of the on the ground staff who are often young and clueless on catching kids out or seeing how far they can push them as opposed to helping them. So the miserable deteriorate and the ill dont get help. They die of "natural causes"
I am sure anyone who has worked with kids of any age has come across "sick" as opposed to medically ill from time to time. Compassionate, smart experienced aduls dont accuse either of these kids of being fakers. They swiftly and throughly check all kids, call someone with greater expertise if in any doubt and if it is a basic first aid matter tend to it themselves.
In the event that the kids does not need medical treatment what they usually need is a bit of attention and kindness rather than being forced to push themselves. This is often what has lead to the meltdown in the first place! How many first years at normal boarding school go to the infirmary teary and home sick? or kids at summer camps develop "tummy aches" just after getting a letter from mum? You rarely hear the matron tell them they are liars who need to get over it but this is the prevalent attitude of an industry which claims on almost every website that it takes manipulative kids!

perhaps if the wilderness industry took only kids who volunteered, was non profit and employed professionals who did not view emotional pain or substance abuse as moral failure the wilderness side of this industry would do some good. Afterall some troubled kids do want help. But i cant think of any sane person who wants to be uncomforable, exhausted and isolated from any comforts in a bid to "get better"

[TheWho]

Whether thru training or process because I agree, if a kid cries wolf long enough even the best of people are going to turn a deaf ear or react just slow enough to allow a problem to manifest or get out of hand.

Who are you "agreeing" with? No one said that.
And No, it's not being looked at, and won't be until program owners/staff start serving prison time for denying kids basic needs and medical attention. Until the window of loss is closed.
What you refuse to acknowledge is that they are trained, in the program's methods. As in the case of Ian August, the head staff was an EMT. But, she chose to defer to the programs method for flushing out fakers rather than professionally access his physical condition and act appropriately.
In Aaron Bacon's case, they still assumed he was faking when he was shitting himself and couldn't stand erect.
Staff let Gina Score lay on the ground 3 hours, dying, because they thought she was faking.
As with Michelle Sutton who was vomitting most of the water she drank.

I could go on, time doesn't allow.

Is this another assumption?  your opinion?  or do you have a link to support that nothing is being worked on.