Author Topic: MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate  (Read 6585 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2007, 04:57:02 PM »
Quote from: ""70sPunkRebel""
You can only feel hatred for something or someone you feel very passionately about. That makes hate closer to love than to any other emotion.

Hate is not the opposite of love. Indifference is the opposite of love.


Yeh, I like that, a circle rather than a continuum. Easy to imagine that hate could be a positive thing, the potential catalyst for resolution, so you can get back to loving.
Hate/anger being the heighth of the bell curve. The climax of feeling separate, right before the fight, possible resolution, and back to loving.
The intensity of the hate/anger/disagreement directly related to the degree of how disrespected one or both people feel.
I can't agree that Indifference is the opposite of love, because it's actually the absence of the two extremes, love/hate.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2007, 06:03:45 PM »
Quote
Hmm, last I checked it hasn't been proven who flew planes into the WTC buildings. We do know who "took down" building 7 and all evidence is pointing to the US (Bush/cronnies) having a hand in it. Reichstag Fire? Pearl Harbor?


Every time I hear someone bitching about me affecting Fornits' credibility, I remember all the shit like this and laugh.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2007, 06:12:06 PM »
Quote from: "Deborah"
Quote from: ""psy""
Well shit.  You almost made a point there...  The thing you don't realize is this:  They believe they are doing the right thing, that they are holy, that they will be martyred.]/quote]

Doesn't Bush profess to be doing "god's will"? How bout the Crusaders?

Quote
They would, therefore, fall into my second category...  Their leaders, on the other hand...  a great many of them view their followers as pawns... potential weapons...  The west, and America in particular, is a convenient scapegoat to portray as "Satan".

In fact the same is true and could be said of Bush and his puppeteers?

Quote
On the other hand, we don't exactly do a good job of trying to show we have their best interests in mind...  They don't hate our freedom, they could care less what we do over here.  There are many countries that are far more socially liberal and they seem to have avoided planes hitting buildings...

Hmm, last I checked it hasn't been proven who flew planes into the WTC buildings. We do know who "took down" building 7 and all evidence is pointing to the US (Bush/cronnies) having a hand in it. Reichstag Fire? Pearl Harbor?

I see the same damn pattern.  It sounds like conspiracy theories but if you look at the evidence...

When I first saw the towers collapse... I was shocked.  How does a building like that collapse in it's own convenient footprint... and how in the hell does a structurally untouched building (WTC 7) just ... fall down..  And what happened to the rubble afterwards.  Shipped overseas and/or melted down.. the melting point of steel, the angled cut of the beams (shaped demolition charges)...  the secondary explosions.. etc etc etc etc..

Quote

Quote
what they hate, is our self-serving interference in the region (eg: propping up Saudi government), our one-sided stance in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (in my opinion, both sides are equally at fault), and our hypocritical demands for westernization (which they view as an intrusion into their culture, and it's morality (which we, incidentally find repugnant)).

I tend to think they're tired of centuries of blatant racism. The raping and pillaging of their natural resources. The US and their allies instigating discontent, covertly and overtly. Then appearing to intervene in the name of democracy/peace making.  Funding terrorists groups until they no longer serve their purposes, then making them the scapegoat.

Running out of enemies at the end of the cold war threatened a multi-trillion dollar industry (so we needed to train some brand new ones.  the war on terror is the "next big thing"...  This is the war that does not end...  We have enemies for the next few centuries.  Both sides gain stability by keeping the population focused on external affairs, ignoring the corruption within.  Eurasia anybody?)... The defense budget is classified, and having unwittingly (had no friggin idea who i was working for until i put the pieces together) worked for one, i can tell you this: the government buys a lot of shit it does not need, and that the DOD and the private sector are a little too close for comfort.  And nobody seems to suspect a thing when KBR (Halliburton) gets a no-bid contract for the reconstruction of Iraq, and absurdly overbills, and gets clean away with it (even praised).

Quote
Quote
They value different things that we do...  Revenge is a part of the culture, expected..  It's considered justice... vengeance..

Just curious how that may be different with the US which has been known to create catastrophes to justify 'revengful' acts.

Transparency.

Quote
Quote
As far as hate goes?  Hate is just an emotion, there is nothing wrong with it... but you must understand why the hate exists, and not let it control you.

Isn't hate the absence of love.... respect? Intense disrespect? I consider it an indirect way of saying what one's really feeling... I'm angry at you for... I feel rage because.... becomes I hate you. Especially when you don't think you'll be heard, respected, or appreciated by the other party.


Well shit.  the one thing that I did pay attention at Benchmark was that anger did not exist.. Anger was a secondary emotion caused by pain or fear.  If you feel angry, it must be for one of those two reasons.  I have not been able to disprove it, and it sort of makes sense (and that was about the only thing).

hmm... interstingly.. googling "anger secondary emotion"

produces this link: eqi.org  sounds est-ish... what with the emotional intelligence(you're in your head)...  A lot of the music they reference is from propheets / workshops (Lennon for example)

Jayne commented a few months ago in a phone interview that psychologists were too "in their heads"...

I asked her why she used sleep deprivation in the workshops... she said it was to help kids be a "little more real"

the shit spreads like a cancer.  Shit.  I'm constantly finding pieces of it i absorbed when I was at Benchmark...  It's like pulling out pieces of glass... and there's nothing there to patch it up... and you wonder what was there before, and you can't remember.

the god damn rabbit hole just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2007, 06:18:56 PM »
OH THE HILARITY OF IT ALL:

http://http://stevehein.com/sphcv.htm

Quote from: ""the wise philosopher who created eqi.org ...  and apparantly influenced Benchmark's Personal Growth""

Age 10-21

Selliing state maps which I got for free at the corner gasoline station by our house for two cents each to our neighbors, till one called my mother.

Paperboy, lawn mowing, snow shoeveling, painting houses, re-selling candy, food, popcorn.

Over 21

My own software business, real estate management and investments, writing and self-publishing book, developing and teaching my own personal development and parenting classes, creating a top ranking website on emotional intelligence.


that is from his actual CV...

I couldn't make this shit up if i tried.  

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

And this is who he recommends do corporate evaluations: http://http://www.cjwolfe.com/

fucking incredible.. BUY NOW!!!!

This just about made me throw up my chinese

http://http://www.eqi.org/busi.htm#Note%20to%20HR%20Managers

would you read that quote:

Quote
Emotional Intelligence, Emotional Enlightenment, and Business

Business has become, in this last half-century,
the most powerful institution on the planet.
The dominant institution in any society
needs to take responsibility for the whole. "

?Futurist Willis Harman (1918-1997)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 06:38:32 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2007, 06:30:41 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""
i mean... do you have compassion for Mel Sembler, or Miller Newton... I mean, if Jayne got hit by a truck tomorrow.. i would be ecstatic. ... maybe i'ts unhealthy, ... but some people... i hope they suffer in ways that do not even exist.


Yeah, believe it or not I do have some compassion for them. I hate what they are and what they do but I wouldn't want to walk a mile in their shoes. Remember that Mel Sembler did this to his own son. And, according to some reports, he was spotted on the parents' side at open meeting when his own grandson was in Pathway Family Center just a couple of years ago. Same w/ Virgil. His son went through the program. That's how he got in in order to move up through the ranks of parent group. I feel sorry for the sons of bitches. Not so sorry that I don't laugh my ass off whenever Virgil loses another judgment and RTP gives it his own special satirical treatment.

I wouldn't feel badly for either one if they got hit by a bus. Actually, I'd have to laugh pretty hard if they came to a messy end caught in the crossfire of their own drug war. Say, a deal gone bad right there at Ybor City. But, living or dead, I feel badly for their families. They do and will ever have to live with the shame. I'm not kidding or being expansive when I say that these kids and grandkids and unto the next generations will have a curse on their heads like the poor bastards who descend from the likes of Goebbels and Hitler.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2007, 06:32:13 PM »
I feel little pain (except maybe when reading ST or some of the more retarded shit around here) and I fear nothing, so I'm the absolute counterexample to that bullshit at Benchmark.

Psy.. everything you "learned" at Benchmark is bullshit. Take a week, a month, a year, whatever, to purge it entirely from your mind. I did similar with much of public school.

And Tower 7 fell due to a huge piece of shrapnel knocking the supports out from underneath a HUGE diesel generator that some idiot put on the roof.

What is the matter with this fucking conspiracy bullshit? Here's a conspiracy for you. Four planes' worth of towelheads came into this country and nobody stopped them from pulling it off, and who's to say, maybe the CIA helped. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than to make up bullshit about impossible demolition charges being placed everywhere.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2007, 06:42:55 PM »
Psy, they taught us on Rational Self Therapy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_E ... or_Therapy

Albert Ellis was actually scheduled as to speak about how Straight, Inc. had distorted his ideas and capitalized on his good name at the 2000 "Drug Treatment Abuse" conference in Bethesda. He canceled at the last minute due to medical problems.

Ot was kind of silly the way they did it. Once or twice a week a select few 4th and 5th phasers were taken to another room for a couple of hours of common sense book work on basic psychology, then back into bizarro world on the other side of the door. One thing I remember from the course was that anger is what you feel when something fails to meet your expectation. I was angry as hell for a long time, then I adjusted my expectations. I suppose I'm more angry now at my fellow citizens who refuse to see what kind of monsters we've left in charge and are, imo, too cowardly to do anything about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2007, 06:44:55 PM »
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
I feel little pain (except maybe when reading ST or some of the more retarded shit around here) and I fear nothing, so I'm the absolute counterexample to that bullshit at Benchmark.

Psy.. everything you "learned" at Benchmark is bullshit. Take a week, a month, a year, whatever, to purge it entirely from your mind. I did similar with much of public school.

And Tower 7 fell due to a huge piece of shrapnel knocking the supports out from underneath a HUGE diesel generator that some idiot put on the roof.

What is the matter with this fucking conspiracy bullshit? Here's a conspiracy for you. Four planes' worth of towelheads came into this country and nobody stopped them from pulling it off, and who's to say, maybe the CIA helped. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than to make up bullshit about impossible demolition charges being placed everywhere.


Oh.  That the conspiracy theorists argue that the CIA most definately did help...  They knew when it was going to happen, and the target so they could coordinate a bigger bang (for more funding bucks).

It sounds impossible, but consider the bomb sniffing dogs were pulled off a week earlier.

Look.  I'm not saying it happened... I'm saying the pattern fits.  Like Deb said, pearl harbor, Reichstag.  Programs sound like a huge conspiracy theory, and yet they exist.  so I tend to say ... eeh.  It's possible, and there is ample motive there.

It's not as simple as "the bad bad towelhead men want to kill us becuase they hate our freedoms etc."  They had good reason to want to kill us. (humor me and study a little foreign policy)  That does not justify what they did, but it explains it.

Yadda yadda.  Towelhead faggot etc.  You sound like Anne Coulter.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 06:52:19 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2007, 06:50:40 PM »
Quote from: ""Antigen's Ghost""
Psy, they taught us on Rational Self Therapy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_E ... or_Therapy

Albert Ellis was actually scheduled as to speak about how Straight, Inc. had distorted his ideas and capitalized on his good name at the 2000 "Drug Treatment Abuse" conference in Bethesda. He canceled at the last minute due to medical problems.

Ot was kind of silly the way they did it. Once or twice a week a select few 4th and 5th phasers were taken to another room for a couple of hours of common sense book work on basic psychology, then back into bizarro world on the other side of the door. One thing I remember from the course was that anger is what you feel when something fails to meet your expectation. I was angry as hell for a long time, then I adjusted my expectations. I suppose I'm more angry now at my fellow citizens who refuse to see what kind of monsters we've left in charge and are, imo, too cowardly to do anything about it.


JESUS FUCK!  That's exactly what they called it too...  BINGO!  

god damn that's exactly it.  That is exactly what they taught us.

"concept that emotional suffering results primarily, though not completely, from our evaluations of a negative event, not solely by the events per se. In other words, human beings on the basis of their belief system actively, though not always consciously, disturb themselves, and even disturb themselves about their disturbances"

yupppp... that's the poopie.

Oh where is the hug icon...

This adds a whole new dimension to the hurt i am planning for them...  Oh deary me..   ::bigsmilebounce::
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2007, 07:02:27 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""
On the other hand there are the program directors, parent liaisons, some Educational Consultants etc... who know what they are doing is wrong, yet continue to do it because it makes them so much money... Those people, who day after day, systematically destroy people's lives... I have absolutely no compassion for whatsoever.


I have to respond to this separately. I don't think there are very many people like this. Most of these people are just like the Muslims you describe; they truly and fully believe that what they're doing is good. Same for cops who kill innocents in SWAT raids looking for flowers, same for military snipers, bombers and various other kinds of sanctioned murderers. Same for my dad when he was a 16yo sailor far from home, believing he was protecting home and hearth from the heathen Japs.

I did, myself, take part in torturing other unfortunate strangers who found themselves in the same twilight zone as I did. At first, I didn't take part. Little by little, without any sort of reference or reenforcement, you forget what you think, you lose the habit of making your own judgments and what once was plain out wrong and cruel becomes normal. I have sympathy for the guards who beat Martin Anderson to death cause I know what it's like to torture a helpless kid, believing him to be acting defiant of his own volition and not even know till later that the poor kid had no volition.

See, it's only a matter of degrees. It happens that I had the impetus to haul ass at a time prior to graduating and going on staff. I had every intention of earning a scholarship to study marine biology at Woods Hole, Ma. in order to beg off of the staff assignment. But I know now that I never would have gotten that scholarship, having missed too much school and then been kept busy on staff. And, unless something else had happened to jolt me awake for a minute, they would have worn me down even more till I fully believed that I was saving kids by working the Program on them. I can't really hate somebody who never escaped so much as I pity them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2007, 08:14:15 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""
Well shit.  the one thing that I did pay attention at Benchmark was that anger did not exist.. Anger was a secondary emotion caused by pain or fear.  If you feel angry, it must be for one of those two reasons.  I have not been able to disprove it, and it sort of makes sense (and that was about the only thing).
hmm... interstingly.. googling "anger secondary emotion"
produces this link: eqi.org  sounds est-ish... what with the emotional intelligence(you're in your head)...  A lot of the music they reference is from propheets / workshops (Lennon for example)
Jayne commented a few months ago in a phone interview that psychologists were too "in their heads"...
I asked her why she used sleep deprivation in the workshops... she said it was to help kids be a "little more real"
the shit spreads like a cancer.  Shit.  I'm constantly finding pieces of it i absorbed when I was at Benchmark...  It's like pulling out pieces of glass... and there's nothing there to patch it up... and you wonder what was there before, and you can't remember.
the god damn rabbit hole just keeps getting bigger and bigger.


Well, they have been known to co-opt some otherwise useful thinking, terms, and techniques and bastardize them. Just like Hillary Clinton did with "It Takes A Village".

They (nor est) coined the thinking that anger is a secondary emotion. Conduct a different search, like, research + anger secondary emotion. You'll find plenty of clinical research.

Common sense bares this out as well. Would you ever get angry if you never felt physically or emotionally threatened in some way or violated, or any number of other things that fall under the heading of disrepect?
It is possible to arrive at a place where you can recognize and address the disrespect immediately, when first noticed, therefore eliminating the anger response. It's a matter of recognizing when the fight/flight response is necessary and when it's not. Most people who have achieved this are either saints or con artists. Spend some time with an esty. No matter how much they swear they are anger-free, you can find a button if you push long enough.

And that's one really fucked up thing about programs. They bait kids with heavy daily doses of disrespect, enough to anger a saint, and then punish them for their reaction. Disrespect in the form of inane rules, austere punishments, guilty until proven innocent, and basically insulting their intelligence. It's like being spanked and not allowed to cry. What happens to your self respect when you're not allowed to defend yourself, or question, or debate, or even have your feelings? All that anger gets pushed inside. I know one young man who post program broke his hand on two different ocassions by hitting a wall when all that suppressed rage surfaced.

So, not everything the program says is unique to it or est or synanon, they co-opt and bastardize a lot of otherwise good information. And totally misuse or use in hurtful ways. It could take a while to sort out the confusion. I think the effort is worth the trouble.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2007, 08:26:04 PM »
Quote from: ""Antigen's Ghost""
Quote from: ""psy""
On the other hand there are the program directors, parent liaisons, some Educational Consultants etc... who know what they are doing is wrong, yet continue to do it because it makes them so much money... Those people, who day after day, systematically destroy people's lives... I have absolutely no compassion for whatsoever.

I have to respond to this separately. I don't think there are very many people like this. Most of these people are just like the Muslims you describe; they truly and fully believe that what they're doing is good. Same for cops who kill innocents in SWAT raids looking for flowers, same for military snipers, bombers and various other kinds of sanctioned murderers. Same for my dad when he was a 16yo sailor far from home, believing he was protecting home and hearth from the heathen Japs.

I did, myself, take part in torturing other unfortunate strangers who found themselves in the same twilight zone as I did. At first, I didn't take part. Little by little, without any sort of reference or reenforcement, you forget what you think, you lose the habit of making your own judgments and what once was plain out wrong and cruel becomes normal.

Ditto here...  Resisted at first, got punished...  etc. you know the deal.

Quote
I have sympathy for the guards who beat Martin Anderson to death cause I know what it's like to torture a helpless kid, believing him to be acting defiant of his own volition and not even know till later that the poor kid had no volition.

See, it's only a matter of degrees. It happens that I had the impetus to haul ass at a time prior to graduating and going on staff. I had every intention of earning a scholarship to study marine biology at Woods Hole, Ma. in order to beg off of the staff assignment. But I know now that I never would have gotten that scholarship, having missed too much school and then been kept busy on staff. And, unless something else had happened to jolt me awake for a minute, they would have worn me down even more till I fully believed that I was saving kids by working the Program on them. I can't really hate somebody who never escaped so much as I pity them.


I know that.  But consider even hitler thought he was helping people.  People create justifications to survive.  Because of guilt.  And that guilt keeps them from seeing what they have done.  Who could forgive themselves.  I can't say I ever saw anybody resist more than a little while...  If they want to suceed, they need to work the program... and that means redefining the value system.  People think they are strong enough to resist.  They are purely and simply, wrong.  A certain person around here likes to think he's invincible i'm guessing.  How fast he would become part of the system only we know.

I remember the people I hurt in program.  I remember I thought i was helping them.  I was sick.  "I" wasn't "me".  So yes I can see how somebody can oh so easily get sucked in.  Was I weak?  That is a question i cannot be kind to myself in answering.  I was weak.  I compromised my ethics for personal success.  If just one person was willing to put others above himself, and not stray from that ideal...  But I was not that person.  Under pressure, I failed.  The only thing that consoled me, is that everybody else failed as well.

I have as little tolerance for myself in terms of expections as i have for others.  Perhaps the expectations are unrealistic, but I refuse to believe there is nobody who could resist.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw"

And I will hold to that until I die.  Or may somebody put a bullet in my head for my failure.

Have you ever wished you could go back in...  to test youself again, to inspire others with your refusal to compromise, to tear the place apart...  To start a revolution.  Maybe they would isolate me, but I would resist with every fiber of my body.  Maybe it's unrealistic, but I can't quite describe the determination that drives me.  This system needs to end and i refuse to believe it is unreasonable.  Unrealitic maybe, but in that case, i don't care for reality.  I'm too fucking stubborn. "Irrational beliefs prevent goal attainment"... pessimistic horse shit.  I will not accept failure without a fight, and i will not forfeit.  I know that nobody knows the future, and I know that determined people can, and have, changed history.  I will not sit by and let this continue to happen.  And i'm just fucking insane enough now to follow it through.

Maybe I had to fail to know what it was like.  I don't know.  But now that I know, I understand how it works, and I will not be fooled again.  And I know that behavior propagates, and I know that resistance inspires hope, and I know that hope is your oxygen in program.  I want to see kids saying "fuck you, i won't do what you tell me".  I want to see them doing what they feel is right, regardless of the "consequence".  I want to see riots in these schools.  I want to see kids standing up, turning the tables and showing the world what goes on.  I know it is possible. I has happened before.  All it would take is a spark.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 11:47:56 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2007, 09:43:42 PM »
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""psy""
Well shit.  the one thing that I did pay attention at Benchmark was that anger did not exist.. Anger was a secondary emotion caused by pain or fear.  If you feel angry, it must be for one of those two reasons.  I have not been able to disprove it, and it sort of makes sense (and that was about the only thing).
hmm... interstingly.. googling "anger secondary emotion"
produces this link: eqi.org  sounds est-ish... what with the emotional intelligence(you're in your head)...  A lot of the music they reference is from propheets / workshops (Lennon for example)
Jayne commented a few months ago in a phone interview that psychologists were too "in their heads"...
I asked her why she used sleep deprivation in the workshops... she said it was to help kids be a "little more real"
the shit spreads like a cancer.  Shit.  I'm constantly finding pieces of it i absorbed when I was at Benchmark...  It's like pulling out pieces of glass... and there's nothing there to patch it up... and you wonder what was there before, and you can't remember.
the god damn rabbit hole just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

Well, they have been known to co-opt some otherwise useful thinking, terms, and techniques and bastardize them. Just like Hillary Clinton did with "It Takes A Village".

They (nor est) coined the thinking that anger is a secondary emotion. Conduct a different search, like, research + anger secondary emotion. You'll find plenty of clinical research.

Oh.  That I found.  However, only one of those links considered anger as only being a primary emotion.  I remember googling the same thing just after I got out of benchmark and I stumbled along the same link.

Most of The clinical research and websites listed anger as both a primary and a secondary emotion, if not chiefly a primary emotion (something, that i actually argued originally in program)

see here

Among other things, I argued that seeing others being wronged made me angry.  Injustice.  It was early on in the program, which explains why I actually remember it.  I sited "righteous anger" in defense of those who cannot defend themselves...  Idealistic I was even then.  But I underestimated their capability to influence me, even without my full knowledge.  But at some point, I stopped caring.  I was willing to give in, to give myself in, if it would make life a little more normal.

Most "personal growth" (alternating days all morning) revolved around the re-interpretation of various concepts, from love, to friendship.. etc.  I doubt everything now.  Love?  Love was forbidden until level 2...  good luck getting there without redefining Friendship.  Friendship?  "A friend is your needs answered"... without the rest of the poem.  "The harsher the truth to tell, the truer the friend"...  ratting.. ratting was helping another to follow the program.  It was helping. It was helping.  It was honorable to report when you saw something wrong happening, like breaking bans, or a kiss, or a love note passed...  It was a threat to the program you see...  They needed to protect us from ourselves because we were sick and didn't know what we wanted, or what was good for us.  That's why we were there.  We needed to be shown the way.

Group.  Group was an all out friendship fest.  Morning group before personal growth at 8am til 9.  That's when you fill out your hitlists (i mean "rap sheets")

From 1 to 4 pm...  Noon group...  longer and more intense.  Sometimes it would break up into smaller groups.  This is when the staff would let you express your friendship to your friends on your rap sheet.

Cooking class.  Aah.  I loved cooking class.  I got to cook and cook... I couldn't cook the way I used to though.  No spontinaity.  creativity was highly discouraged.  But the food was still a rare treat.  and when you graduated, you could invite one friend... but you had to be careful lest you isolate, or get too close to another... especially one of the opposite sex.  no... That was not friendship...

Soon after I arrived in program, I baked an apple pie (dont' ask how i scraped together the materials... let's just say one of the anorexic chicks had a thing for apples and we came to an arrangement).  Bargaining for the simplest of things was like one would do in prison.. but in prison, such thigs are expected, tolerated, and never was anybody ratted out.  So i Baked this pie, and I delivered it to the neighboring apartment...  It happened to be a girls apartment.  So the next day I got in trouble for it.... and was confronted in group for it. (yes you guessed it, staff confiscated the contraband pie)...  It sounds so absurd, but such an attempt at the slightest bit of normalcy, of kindness, was viewed as a threat.

I was cheerful. I was extroverted.  I loved people, i loved crowds.  I made friends with random people, i trusted everybody...  I was innocent.  I was sheltered, I was undamaged... and I learned.  I learned to be shrewd.  I learned to calculate the consequences of social cause and effect.. push a button here to get an effect here.  I learned how to devastate.  I learned how to destroy a person emotionally, verbally.  I learned pressure points, and i pushed them...  and i felt drunk on the power of it.  But as much as I fucked over others... the same was done to me.  Karma is like that and illustrated no better than in program.  Towards then end, before they exiled me, i realized what they were doing and I stopped.  I realized that if I was becoming the "real me"... i didn't want to be the "real me"...  I realized they were mindfucking me, and i flat out confronted a counselor in group about it.  He asked me "what about your realization that you were just wearing masks..."  I told him that "everybody gets mindfucked once in a while"...  I attempted to start a protest... It suceeded, but i would never find that out as I was exiled before the fruits of my labor could blossom.  A host of students lost their levels becuase I convinced them that if they did not comply with the system, it could not function, and since they could not kick us all out, they would be forced to comply.  They walked off property in protest.  I was honored.  I was surprised.  But that action they took still gives me hope.  My current plan for Benchmark relies on it.

Quote
Common sense bares this out as well. Would you ever get angry if you never felt physically or emotionally threatened in some way or violated, or any number of other things that fall under the heading of disrepect?
It is possible to arrive at a place where you can recognize and address the disrespect immediately, when first noticed, therefore eliminating the anger response. It's a matter of recognizing when the fight/flight response is necessary and when it's not. Most people who have achieved this are either saints or con artists.

Do you know what it is to feel completely numb?  To be confused as to what is, and what isn't a feeling.  Emotion is a choice remember.  I choose to feel __________.  Despite my initial attempts to argue the contrary...  Something shut off at some point.  Everything shut off at some point.  There is danger in it, i know that. But there is also control...  Whether or not it is an illusion...  Am i supressing something, or am I truly dead inside.  The more I research, the more I fight this, the closer i feel to who I was before, the more alive I feel again.  I feel great now.  I helped others, expecting nothing in return, and somehow something happened.  Empathy, altruism, love, compassion, not hatred.

Like I said.  Hatred fueled me initially several years ago.  I thought it would be enough, but it burnt out, and it gave me no hope.  Now i just want others to feel the same, to have the same chances i have had.  Somehow doing this is reconnecting me to the humanity I once had.  When Anne from Minessota goes on about Fornits and the negativity...  How narrowminded.  

Quote
Spend some time with an esty. No matter how much they swear they are anger-free, you can find a button if you push long enough.

People have tried.  My boss commented that I was impossable to piss off, that he was surprised at everything I could take (work was very much a boys locker room, complete with practical jokes of the lowest kind... and humor to match)...

One time my idiot boss was yelling at me, and i turned around.  I didn't feel like taking bothering with his crap.  He was losing his memory and blaming everybody around him for the chaos he caused by doing things such as asking to re-verify the same stack of boxes every single day.  he was upset nothign was getting done.  It was comical were it not so sad to see (eventually he resigned)..  So when I turned around (apparantly that's a big insult in the military) he became enraged, grabbed my arm, and twisted me around.  Most people would react, fight back, punch him, flinch... anything.  Nothing happened.  His boss was coming down the hall (attracted by the yelling) so i put my arm on his shoulder and pretended we were talking quietly.  He was grateful... but probably forgot the whole thing minutes later.  In any case.  I think he was more jarred by the incident than anything else.  His idea of resolving disagreements was (literally) to go outside, fight, and go have a friendly beer afterwards.  It sounds fucked up... but I suppose it worked where he came from.  He wasn't used to dealing with civilians (still stuck in 'nam).

Quote
And that's one really fucked up thing about programs. They bait kids with heavy daily doses of disrespect, enough to anger a saint, and then punish them for their reaction.

And eventually you shut down to survive.

Quote
Disrespect in the form of inane rules, austere punishments, guilty until proven innocent, and basically insulting their intelligence. It's like being spanked and not allowed to cry. What happens to your self respect when you're not allowed to defend yourself, or question, or debate, or even have your feelings? All that anger gets pushed inside. I know one young man who post program broke his hand on two different ocassions by hitting a wall when all that suppressed rage surfaced.

Relinquishing control huh?  I have no clue how.  Prozac (especially such high doses i was on at Benchmark), when used in conjunction with Behavior modification, as far as my mother explains it, results in permanent changes in the brain.  She says it's not set in stone until the mid 20s.

Quote
So, not everything the program says is unique to it or est or synanon, they co-opt and bastardize a lot of otherwise good information. And totally misuse or use in hurtful ways. It could take a while to sort out the confusion. I think the effort is worth the trouble.


What they sourced their information from...  I know for a fact: est, lifespring, synanon(indirectly through CEDU) and various trinkets of eastern mysticism.  Wherever it came from.. They used the tools they were given.

Maybe I'm ranting but I'm in Alpha mode right now (sleep disturbances) and i feel like I need to talk about this.  I'm going to be doing a senior final project next semester (animation) and am preparing the script, storyboards, etc.  It's based on program...  not loosely at all.  Ginger has heard the synopsis.  Since I can't smoke weed in my house, this is the only method I know of to access that mode of thought.  It's very useful for art, writing, and other creative stuff.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2007, 11:38:18 PM »
Wow! Make a phone call and look what happens. I will catch up, I will, I will! LOL

Mean time...

Quote from: ""psy""
People think they are strong enough to resist. They are purely and simply, wrong. A certain person around here likes to think he's invincible i'm guessing. How fast he would become part of the system only we know.


What do you think of this. Most people go around thinking that all they know and most of what they believe is based on clear perception and sound reason. The reality is (and you know this, I think you've even cited the same study I know about) that most of what we all know and believe is based on the reactions of those around us.

If I had understood that going in I would have been the biggest pain in the ass ever, taken my lumps but damned sure made an impression.

I hope you won't judge yourself too harshly. You've got a lot more on the ball now that most people I know and certainly more than most program vets at your current stage of the game. I hope that having us old heads around to corroborate and understand and expand each other's understanding of the whole odyssey has been as much a comfort and encouragement to you as you have been to me.

BUT please focus on that damned degree. This site may or may not last, the bonds and connects we've all made may or may not outlast the site. Who the hell knows? But you've got a damned fine head on your shoulders and more compassion than most. Attain a position of some independence and power and do as thou wilt.

And stay in touch.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline try another castle

  • Registered Users
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2693
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
MGDP: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Hate
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2007, 11:52:35 PM »
Quote
I'm going to be doing a senior final project next semester (animation) and am preparing the script, storyboards, etc. It's based on program... not loosely at all.


2D or 3D?

That's awesome that the school you are going to allows you to create your own short for your demo reel as part of the curriculum, as opposed to having to do it on your own time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »