Author Topic: TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love  (Read 10139 times)

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Offline RobertBruce

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TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2007, 11:27:40 AM »
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Bob, you have asked a lot of questions and I think I have been fair in my attempt to addressing all of them. Try looking back over my responses, my answers are there if I wished to answer them.

Right Cindy, if you wished to answer them.


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It would be nice to hear your views on the topic.


Fire away Cindy, I'm not afraid to own my position.
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Offline Anonymous

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TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2007, 11:28:51 AM »
Any discussion about this thing and any child belongs in the other thread.
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Offline Deborah

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TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2007, 12:40:08 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""
Listen.  For once i aggree with the who.  Love is conditional.  I know people that flat out hate their parents for what was done to them.  It is possible for love to end.

But as i've said.... where the kids love is based on humane treatment etc... some parent's love is often based on control.  The only difference is the condition under which love ends.

We were talking about a parent's love for their child, not the other way around.

Are we?  The two are inter-related.  IE: if somebody does not accept me as i am and love me for it, am i likely to reciprocate?


Yeh, that's where it started out, and someone (Who?) expanded it by talking about unconditional love between people in general.
In terms of parent/child relationships, I think this is worth repeating:

Greatly enabling the parent to love the child unconditionally is the realization that the development of their child's limbic system is years ahead of his prefrontal cortex. This simply means that he is not an adult! Armed with this knowledge, it is easier to appreciate why children may at times appear irresponsible, selfish, impulsive, immature and inconsiderate. The fact that puppies act like puppies and not like grown dogs is readily accepted. Yet parents have trouble accepting normalcy in their own child! This is more than likely due to the fact that the parent?s own normal, childish behavior was not accepted unconditionally in their childhood.

It's a viscous, incidious cycle and can take considerable effort to break. It can be exceedingly difficult to have unconditional love for your child if you you never experienced it. Disrespect can be subtle, and much disrespect toward children is condoned and accepted as desirable in our society. Long ago it was believed that children were just little adults with all the capabilities of adults, and were expected to act as such or face harsh punishment. Science and objective observation has shown that not to be the case. Little ones don't yet possess the skills of self control, which is something useful for humans to master. If a parent doesn't possess self control, their child likely will not, because they aren't capable of assisting their child's mastery in that area. Many kids reach adolescence with no ability to self monitor and control.
When a kid screams, "I hate you", many parents take it literally and personally. With their limited skills, "I hate you" is their best/only way of saying they feel disrespected, and chances are almost certain, they are reacting to disrespect. One must also wonder where a young child has heard, "I hate you"? Mom to dad, dad to child?  "I hate you", more times than not, means, I feel hurt, scared, frustrated... but ultimately disrespected. Wee ones tend not to harbor resentment. But the older a child becomes, the stronger the drive to defend against disrespect- a survival technique. Hence the issues that arise in adolescence. Lacking unconditional love, having been disrepected, not taught self monitoring/ control skills, they too often land in warehouses where they will be further disrespected until their will is broken and they conform (or get kicked out). Not because they've learned respect in a respectful environment, but because they fear punishment. They learn to "act" as expected.... goes back to that old belief that kids are little adults.
It's 2007. When will they learn? When will they eeeeever learn?
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Offline TheWho

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TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2007, 01:20:41 PM »
Guest wrote:
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It's unconditional by nature....


I really don?t believe unconditional love is natural from birth.  It has no real definition that can be held up, measured and applied to everyone.  I believe the state of being unconditionally loved comes from our intense fear of loneliness and the insecurities that go along with it.  As we see our parents getting divorced, the world at war, hazing and abuse and bullying at school the ideal of being unconditionally loved at home becomes so much more important and if it didn?t exist 100 years ago it is definitely needed today.  A million years ago I would venture to guess it didn?t exist either.  If you ate from your fathers plate you might have been killed on the spot without a thought.  We have evolved as a species over time and created, nurtured the family and now hold it up as a beacon depicting our civilized world.  But is it infallible?  Can it have flaws?
Unconditional love is there for the child and created as a shield to allow ourselves to take chances, make mistakes, piss our parents off knowing they will always love us no matter what and this is what separates us from other species.  The family bond and love between them has grown strong over the generations because it was needed.  The bond is strong, but is it truly unconditional, unbreakable?  Can the family unit be severed?  I think it can.
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2007, 01:46:31 PM »
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The bond is strong, but is it truly unconditional, unbreakable? Can the family unit be severed? I think it can.


and for you that's fine. You can philosiphize it all you want, good parents love their children unconditionally. Maybe the reason youve had so many problems with your daughter is this very issue right here.
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Offline TheWho

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TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2007, 05:15:55 PM »
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote
The bond is strong, but is it truly unconditional, unbreakable? Can the family unit be severed? I think it can.

and for you that's fine. You can philosiphize it all you want, good parents love their children unconditionally. Maybe the reason youve had so many problems with your daughter is this very issue right here.



Bob, why don?t you give your opinion on the topic, join the discussion instead of just ridiculing others?

What are your views on ?unconditional love??
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Offline psy

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TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2007, 05:29:09 PM »
ok.  i'll get to the point.  who:  You wouldn't have that opinion if you did not have personal experience relating to it in your life.  Most people are too optimistic and/or naive...  So.  did your parents stop loving you, or did you stop loving your daughter, or vice-versa.  Where is the deal love in your family?

To clarify: I believe parents should love their children  unconditionally.. however it does not always turn out that way, especially when the parents have unrealistic and/or overly controlling views over "who" they want their children to be (Hence one good reason programs claim to be able to fix "it all").
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Offline Oz girl

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TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2007, 05:54:01 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Unconditional love is there for the child and created as a shield to allow ourselves to take chances, make mistakes, piss our parents off knowing they will always love us no matter what and this is what separates us from other species.  

this is true and vital. This is why young people need unconditional love because it is natural for them to make mistakes as a part of growing up. it is also natural to lash out from time to time as a kid and claim to hate your parents. But as Deborah pointed out most kids dont maintain the rage for long. Not if their parents love them in spite of their mistakes and flaws. This is what is so fucked up about a system that encourages such an absolutist approach. Parents become too harsh and when their kids become adults they often hate them, or are not truly close. I hope parents keep this in mind when it is time for the nursing home!
Unconditional love is also what bridges the gap between clashes of personal values and of differing political and religious ideas in families. i dont see how anyone can be a real parent without it because they will never know who their child really is!
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2007, 06:00:16 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""
ok.  i'll get to the point.  who:  You wouldn't have that opinion if you did not have personal experience relating to it in your life.  Most people are too optimistic and/or naive...  So.  did your parents stop loving you, or did you stop loving your daughter, or vice-versa.  Where is the deal love in your family?

To clarify: I believe parents should love their children  unconditionally.. however it does not always turn out that way, especially when the parents have unrealistic and/or overly controlling views over "who" they want their children to be (Hence one good reason programs claim to be able to fix "it all").


No,  We use to talk about this in college before any of us had kids.  I think it was a result of required psych courses and humanities electives.  I was brought up in a fairly normal family environment..... I dont think I could imagine in my wildest dreams what condition would cause me not to love my daughter or her me, but I don?t believe, fundamentally, in anything existing without limits, sometimes we just don?t see them or don?t know what they are.

I think most people really think they do love their kids unconditionally; it doesn?t make them wrong, they just haven?t seen the limit points and most never do hopefully.
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2007, 06:32:22 PM »
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Bob, why don?t you give your opinion on the topic, join the discussion instead of just ridiculing others?

What are your views on ?unconditional love??

Again come down off the cross, no one is ridiculing you, I'm just pointing out the logical conclusion derived from your comments and view point. Nothing more.

To answer your question though my views are this: My child could grow up and murder someone, it would not stop me from loving them. They could grow up and hate me, it still wouldnt change a thing. I may not like them, I may hate their choices, I may be disappointed in them or the descions they make. But I will never stop loving them. Any good parent will tell you the same thing.

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No, We use to talk about this in college before any of us had kids. I think it was a result of required psych courses and humanities electives

Really?  I was a child psych major in college Cindy, and Ive never heard of this being a prevalent ideology. In fact in the limited discussion that was held on it, it was generally viewed as bad parenting because it destroys trust with the child. Where did you go to school Cindy? Id love to talk to some of your professors if theyre still around.

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I think most people really think they do love their kids unconditionally; it doesn?t make them wrong, they just haven?t seen the limit points and most never do hopefully.


This is what gets you into trouble Cindy. Claiming you know the reality of a situation better than the individual who experiences it is just arrogant and stupid. This is no different then the time you claimed that the kids who talked about being abused, "really believe they were abused ". Maybe, just maybe the people who experience these things know better about it then you. Something you may want to consider.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2007, 06:47:55 PM »
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Really? I was a child psych major in college Cindy, and Ive never heard of this being a prevalent ideology. In fact in the limited discussion that was held on it, it was generally viewed as bad parenting because it destroys trust with the child. Where did you go to school Cindy? Id love to talk to some of your professors if theyre still around.

No what I meant was college age, we would talk about this.  I wasn?t taught this belief in school.  Sorry if this wasn?t clear.

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This is what gets you into trouble Cindy. Claiming you know the reality of a situation better than the individual who experiences it is just arrogant and stupid. This is no different then the time you claimed that the kids who talked about being abused, "really believe they were abused ". Maybe, just maybe the people who experience these things know better about it then you. Something you may want to consider


I?m always in trouble, Bob?.step back a little and read? I am giving my opinion, why get so upset?  You don?t need to read or believe what I say.  I am offering my point of view.

I accept your position on unconditional love, it is yours and I respect that.  We should all be entitled to our own.  If you take a position I don?t believe in I read it and move on, maybe I may learn something from it maybe not, but I don?t take offense because it goes against my views.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2007, 07:27:13 PM »
I'm also known for pulling large pieces of furniture from my ass. I'm the best.
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #87 on: March 06, 2007, 07:29:26 PM »
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No what I meant was college age, we would talk about this. I wasn?t taught this belief in school. Sorry if this wasn?t clear.

Sure you did Cindy. Don't you just hate it when someone quotes you before you get a chance to go back and edit?

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No, We use to talk about this in college before any of us had kids. I think it was a result of required psych courses and humanities electives

So when you said "in college" you meant "college age" and when you said "required psych courses and humanities electives" you meant "sitting around shooting the shit with a bunch of guys who like to talk about unconditional love."

 :rofl:

Right Cindy. How's that foot taste?



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I?m always in trouble, Bob?.step back a little and read? I am giving my opinion, why get so upset? You don?t need to read or believe what I say. I am offering my point of view.

I accept your position on unconditional love, it is yours and I respect that. We should all be entitled to our own. If you take a position I don?t believe in I read it and move on, maybe I may learn something from it maybe not, but I don?t take offense because it goes against my views.


Oh no Cindy youve got it wrong. Youre entitled to your opinion and belifes misguided and idiotic though they may be, I'll never tell you otherwise. What youre not entitled to do is claim you either know what other people are thinking, know other peoples reality, or know what's best for people. Nor are you permitted to cite your opinion as fact without having it thrown right back at you.

If you can handle that then you and I are just fine.
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Offline Anonymous

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TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love
« Reply #88 on: March 06, 2007, 07:54:44 PM »
Arguing with TheWho is like a college student doing a third-grader's homework.

You're always right, but it makes you look retarded.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2007, 07:56:48 PM »
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So when you said "in college" you meant "college age" and when you said "required psych courses and humanities electives" you meant "sitting around shooting the shit with a bunch of guys who like to talk about unconditional love."

 

Right Cindy. How's that foot taste?

Well, let me clarify a little, I think most people understand.  When I was in college we were required to take liberal arts electives, I believe a psych course was required.  Anyway, we were dating at the time and we would sit around an sometimes talk about stuff, how the world works, is marriage necessary?  How does one know if they are in love?and another was unconditional love and we would joke about blowing up the school or something outrageous like that and wondering if our parents would still love us or would they write us off?anyway that?s where that comes from?.if this doesn?t sit well with you or you don?t believe it, Bob .. it is really okay with me.


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Oh no Cindy youve got it wrong. Youre entitled to your opinion and belifes misguided and idiotic though they may be, I'll never tell you otherwise. What youre not entitled to do is claim you either know what other people are thinking, know other peoples reality, or know what's best for people. Nor are you permitted to cite your opinion as fact without having it thrown right back at you.

If you can handle that then you and I are just fine.



Hmmm.. alrighty then !!!   Ha..Ha..Ha..  I guess we are all happy tonight!!!
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