TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love

[Troll Control]

Yeah...good move  (Deborah I think) to break it off, the thread sort of got hijacked by DJ, didnt realize it went on for so many pages after that.

Well, not really.  You actually made a very big statement of your own volition.  then you got embarrassed because you were caight in another bad spot so you went about trolling the thread to avoid accounting for your statement.

This is a program tactic straight from the book:  demand vehemently that everyone accept accountabiliity for what they do and say, unless you're a staff member in which case you simply refuse to take responsibility for your actions and words and blame the child for the problem that ensues.  

This is what you've done in this thread, Who.  You stuck that foot in your mouth again and now you'll do and say anything to avoid responsibility for it, just like the way you blamed your daughter for your family problems and abdicated responsibility for the situation and sent her to be programmed into something you felt worthy of your love.  

You wanted a stepford child and you paid big bucks for it.  Then it all blew up in your face when your daughter came home and cut you out of her life.  And who could blame her?

You keep saying you "tried everything" at home, but just yesterday you admitted you never even went to family therapy, you sent your daughter to therapy, alone, because she was the problem in your eyes, and when that, unsurprisingly, didn't "work," you sent her away, alone, to a program, for two years to be "fixed."

Your whole life with your own child is composed of excuses, copouts and conditional love.  Naturally, she has rejected you, as she should reject anyone who behaves as you do.  Good for her.

You are one very, very sad and very sick person, Who.  If I were you I wouldn't want to talk about it either. :cry:  ops:

"I was thinking more of a family therapist who could help with conflict resolution, locally. A trained therapist, mom, dad and child in one room. My daughter was being treated but the rest of us were not.

Hmmmmm.....tried "everything," huh?  You mean you "tried everything that didn't require any effort from you."

It's all very clear now.

[Troll Control]

So, here's where we're at:

TheWho said:

"I don't believe in unconditional love"

If you don't believe in unconditional love, then therefore you must believe in conditional love or that love doewsn't exist.  TheWho went on to state that he does believe love exists, but it is conditional.

TheWho was then asked if love is conditional, what are the conditions he requires to love his daughter, since he already stated he doesn't love her unconditionally.

It's a logical progression and completely sound.  TheWho is trying to back out of his statement now, but he did say it, several times in fact.

Here's the argument:

1.  Love exists.
2.  Love is not unconditional.
3.  Therefore love is conditional.
4.  Love is given to individuals based on certain conditions.
5.  Therefore TheWho has conditions that people must meet in order to gain his love.
6.  Therefore his daughter would need to meet those conditions.
7.  Therefore TheWho does not unconditionally love his daughter.

This begs the question "Under which conditions does TheWho love his child, and under which conditions does he not?"

It's really a simple question to answer.

[Deborah]

Listen.  For once i aggree with the who.  Love is conditional.  I know people that flat out hate their parents for what was done to them.  It is possible for love to end.
But as i've said.... where the kids love is based on humane treatment etc... some parent's love is often based on control.  The only difference is the condition under which love ends.

Depends on how you define love, so everyone will have their own interpretation, but for me.... unconditional love means that no matter what you think, say, do, I will always love you. Even if your behavior scares the shit out of me. Even if you say rude, mean things. Even when you scream that you hate me. I will continue to love you. I may not like your behavior. I may even 'hate' your behavior. I may draw a firm line with you. I may even get very angry with you. But, I won't stop loving you.
I think it is different for parent and child due to age/development. But, I do believe that kids always love their parents, but when their parent doesn't exhibit unconditional love, there can be astrangement. If the parent changes, the child will again feel the love that was occluded by resentment.

I like this take on it:
Unconditional Love
by Barry Philipp
"Perfect love cast out fear."
- 1 John 4:18

Raising a child with unconditional love means that no fear is created in parent-child interactions. To love unconditionally simply means that parents accept their children completely and without restrictions or stipulations. There is no spoken (or unspoken) message causing the child to think he has to be something other than what he is in order to be loved. The need for unconditional love begins at conception.

The child needs to experience total acceptance from both parents, but primarily from the mother. This means that all physical features are accepted "as is". Unfortunately, this is not always what happens. There can be something about their child that does not meet parents' expectations, such as a funny-looking nose or ears, or unattractive teeth. In these cases, the parents' uneasiness may trigger "innocent" remarks about a child's features, causing the child to realize that his or her acceptance is conditional. Since the child can do little about his body, he experiences the fear of rejection. The basis of this conditional acceptance is perhaps due to the fact that the parents were not accepted unconditionally in their own childhood, which causes their fear to surface in interactions with their children.

Not only should the physical nature of the child be totally accepted, but what the child says, thinks, dreams or feels must be heard, honored and respected. The old philosophy that a child should be "seen but not heard" gave some parents the illusion that children would then develop respect for their parents. But this approach does not help a child to integrate his fear. Only an approach that provides unconditional love will garner respect for the parents! Therefore, if the parents want the child's respect, the child must be the recipient of respect1. It is the same principle with adults - if we want a friend, we have to be a friend. And if we want respect, we must respect others. This process begins with a deep appreciation of the inner workings of a child's mind. When the child's thoughts and feelings are heard and acknowledged by adults, he will feel respected and accepted, and experience peace of mind. Having received this type of treatment, it is easy for the child to learn to respect others.

Forbidden self-expression, due to fear of rejection or ridicule, causes the child to feel unaccepted. This creates fear, and under these circumstances, the fear will not be integrated. This child will then harbor resentment instead of respect. With the child's fully developed limbic system combined with a prefrontal cortex that lags behind in development, actions that cause the child to feel rejection are not likely to be processed by the child's mind as they are by the adult mind. When a person (child or adult) feels fear, he must emerge from the situation feeling safe and knowing that he can protect himself should he encounter a similar situation. This is not likely to happen if the parents themselves are the source of the fear.

Greatly enabling the parent to love the child unconditionally is the realization that the development of their child's limbic system is years ahead of his prefrontal cortex. This simply means that he is not an adult! Armed with this knowledge, it is easier to appreciate why children may at times appear irresponsible, selfish, impulsive, immature and inconsiderate. The fact that puppies act like puppies and not like grown dogs is readily accepted. Yet parents have trouble accepting normalcy in their own child! This is more than likely due to the fact that the parent?s own normal, childish behavior was not accepted unconditionally in their childhood.
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/barry_philipp.html

[TheWho]

Well, I look at it a little differently.  I don?t place conditions as you say (like a list of requirements) on loving someone or someone loving me.

?Unconditional love is a concept that means showing love towards someone regardless of his or her actions or beliefs.?  

I don?t see this as a set of conditions that need to be met.  Lets say a family believes it  has unconditional love for one another and the parents severely beats his children and abuses them.  My belief is that at some point if this continues this bond will be broken and the child will no longer love his parents.  Therefore this love does, in fact, have boundaries and limits.  If this is true than it can not be called unconditional.

[RobertBruce]

I don?t see this as a set of conditions that need to be met. Lets say a family believes it has unconditional love for one another and the parents severely beats his children and abuses them. My belief is that at some point if this continues this bond will be broken and the child will no longer love his parents. Therefore this love does, in fact, have boundaries and limits. If this is true than it can not be called unconditional.

If that was the case then obviously the parent never loved the child to begin with.

If this is what you truly believe though tell us what are the limitations and boundaries that your daughter must stay within in order to recieve your love?

Has she ever crossed those boundaries?

[TheWho]

If that was the case then obviously the parent never loved the child to begin with.

This may be true, but the child initially loved his/her parents.

If this is what you truly believe though tell us what are the limitations and boundaries that your daughter must stay within in order to recieve your love?

I really don?t know, I have never defined them or have drawn a line in the sand.  .  I fundamentally believe the boundaries exist for all and that they may not be the same for everyone.  We may never know what they are unless or until they are crossed??.

Has she ever crossed those boundaries?

No

[RobertBruce]

This may be true, but the child initially loved his/her parents.

You don't know this. A child is not born instinctivly loving its parent. It loves the person who cares for it, and who loves it from the beginning. If a parent right off the bat hates the child and shows the child as much, the child will never grow to love the parent.

I really don?t know, I have never defined them or have drawn a line in the sand. . I fundamentally believe the boundaries exist for all and that they may not be the same for everyone. We may never know what they are unless or until they are crossed??.

But they can be crossed? So essentially your daughter could make enough choices against your wishes, or piss you off enough times that eventually you'll say, "That's it I no longer love you."


?

Quote:
Has she ever crossed those boundaries?


No

Lucky her I guess.

[Troll Control]

Well, I look at it a little differently.  I don?t place conditions as you say (like a list of requirements) on loving someone or someone loving me.

?Unconditional love is a concept that means showing love towards someone regardless of his or her actions or beliefs.?  

I don?t see this as a set of conditions that need to be met.  Lets say a family believes it  has unconditional love for one another and the parents severely beats his children and abuses them.  My belief is that at some point if this continues this bond will be broken and the child will no longer love his parents.  Therefore this love does, in fact, have boundaries and limits.  If this is true than it can not be called unconditional.

It's unconditional by nature.  Unless the person is some sort of mental defective, like a guy who beats and abuses his kids.  Or one that requires his child to meet certain conditions before he loves her.  Or one that sends his daughtewr to therapy alone and then ships her off to a program alone and is then surprised when she comes home and wants him to leave her alone.

[TheWho]

But they can be crossed? So essentially your daughter could make enough choices against your wishes, or piss you off enough times that eventually you'll say, "That's it I no longer love you."

In theory, yes.  I believe boundaries exist and it is not as simple as pissing off someone to the point that you don?t love them anymore.  I don?t think she could piss me off or me her to the point where it destroys our love for each other.  

One parent could beat their child every day and that child may still continue to love that parent, while another would not and that bond could be breached.
So yes the boundaries exist?what they are specifically I don?t know and I believe varies from person to person.

[Troll Control]

So, here's where we're at:

TheWho said:

"I don't believe in unconditional love"

If you don't believe in unconditional love, then therefore you must believe in conditional love or that love doewsn't exist.  TheWho went on to state that he does believe love exists, but it is conditional.

TheWho was then asked if love is conditional, what are the conditions he requires to love his daughter, since he already stated he doesn't love her unconditionally.

It's a logical progression and completely sound.  TheWho is trying to back out of his statement now, but he did say it, several times in fact.

Here's the argument:

1.  Love exists.
2.  Love is not unconditional.
3.  Therefore love is conditional.
4.  Love is given to individuals based on certain conditions.
5.  Therefore TheWho has conditions that people must meet in order to gain his love.
6.  Therefore his daughter would need to meet those conditions.
7.  Therefore TheWho does not unconditionally love his daughter.

This begs the question "Under which conditions does TheWho love his child, and under which conditions does he not?"

It's really a simple question to answer.

[psy]

I cant even begin to understand how a parent cant love their child unconditionally. Why would you have a child if you are not prepared to do this. It is pretty much a given that all families are disfunctional but even with this in mind the concept of conditional love from a parent is revolting.
No wonder these bizarre places thrive.

Probably something he heard in a parent seminar. Thought it sounded good and adopted without contemplating what it actually means. And then maybe his love is conditional, so the program was a good fit.

Well i would bet that had something to do with it.  The entire program<->parent shtick revolves around creating a rift between the parent and child...  It is disguised as intended to strengthen the relationship... but then again so many concepts are redefined in program and parents generally trust the professionals....  After all, the new-age wack-jobs should know what they are doing (they actually do)..  what with the est influence and all...

[RobertBruce]

what they are specifically I don?t know and I believe varies from person to person.

I'm not asking about other people, I'm asking about you. What would your daughter have to do in order to lose your love?


By the way you never answered my question regarding your relationship with your own parents.

[psy]

Listen.  For once i aggree with the who.  Love is conditional.  I know people that flat out hate their parents for what was done to them.  It is possible for love to end.


But as i've said.... where the kids love is based on humane treatment etc... some parent's love is often based on control.  The only difference is the condition under which love ends.

We were talking about a parent's love for their child, not the other way around.

Are we?  The two are inter-related.  IE: if somebody does not accept me as i am and love me for it, am i likely to reciprocate?

Of course, people with serious mental defects, like TheWho or some other program parents (not all - some were duped) aren't capable of giving of themselves.

No.  Program parents are not any more mentally defective than the WWASP graduates who say they loved the place.  They are simply "indoctrinated".  You think parents don't care about their children?  in 99% of cases they probably think they do but, as you have pointed out, are somewhat confused over the definitions of "love" and "care".  Program spends an immense amount of time talking to the parents, telling them what they "did wrong" and what they should have done...  I've seen the letters, i know what they say.  As soon as i'm through with Benchmark i'll release em publicly.

At the very worst, parents are desperate to have a suitable "floor model" to show off to their friends.  Some realize this is what they want, some jsut don't want to be "embarrassed" in front of their friends, and some don't want them to have to "go through what I did" (ironic isn't it).  in any case, they are desperate.  It's that desperation that lets this industry thrive.  If the parents really didn't care they could simply hand the kid over to the state...  

What they do they do for their own benefit, not the child's.  People likeTheWho send their kids to programs because they just don't like their kids and the kids therefore are not worthy of their love.  He said it flat out - he does not love his daughter unless she meets certain conditions.  It's an illness, not the norm.

I don't know that he said that.  Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention.   He may have implied it, but he did not flat out say it...  and if he did...  I wonder if he held that view before program.

A parent's unconditional love for their child is the most natural thing in the world.  Only very selfish people with serious mental defects believe otherwise, like TheWho.  

It's unnatural for a parent to love their child based on conditions.[/quote]

Unnatural yes.  It's a learned philosophy.

[TheWho]

what they are specifically I don?t know and I believe varies from person to person.

I'm not asking about other people, I'm asking about you. What would your daughter have to do in order to lose your love?


By the way you never answered my question regarding your relationship with your own parents.

Bob, you have asked a lot of questions and I think I have been fair in my attempt to addressing all of them.  Try looking back over my responses, my answers are there if I wished to answer them.  

It would be nice to hear your views on the topic.

[psy]

Well, I look at it a little differently.  I don?t place conditions as you say (like a list of requirements) on loving someone or someone loving me.

?Unconditional love is a concept that means showing love towards someone regardless of his or her actions or beliefs.?  

I don?t see this as a set of conditions that need to be met.  Lets say a family believes it  has unconditional love for one another and the parents severely beats his children and abuses them.  My belief is that at some point if this continues this bond will be broken and the child will no longer love his parents.  Therefore this love does, in fact, have boundaries and limits.  If this is true than it can not be called unconditional.

That is exactly what I was trying to say...  Only the point that I was making.. or rather I thought i was making, several pages back, was that love is not indestructable.

Maybe It's a sickness imparted from program upon me, but after seeing parent after parent abandong their children, and the children swear never to speak to them again...  It really makes me wonder if love is actually conditional.

I mean, when I was in program, i had nightmares my own mother was trying to kill me.  They made me fear her.  Granted she was overpowering and controlling at times, the point was for me to feel safe in program, and resent my parents.  My parents were given a similar treatment...  The lies they were told regarding me in program were designed explicitly with their prejudices and expectations in mind.  They were trying to orchestrate a catastrophic rift... and very very nearly suceeded.  I hated them.  It was encouraged. "go ahead, confront your parents, you need to talk about what we mentioned in group the other day"  I don't know how my parents realized they were being lied to but they did... and after talking to them recently, that is what they claim convinced them that they needed to reconsider Benchmark's advice.  Me on the other hand... I didn't want their help.  I was convinced we would never get along or come to a compromise.  Well I was wrong.