Comparisons which dont involve death counts

[Oz girl]

Here is one more I can think of:

PS doesn?t promote healthy social interaction mainly focuses on academics
TBS promotes/models and creates healthy relationships and builds self esteem.

I think PS has more flexibility built into their system than TBS's though as far as academics go.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Nothing healthier than confronting your peers 3 to 5 times a week and "flexible" academics which give a 1/2 an education
 :rofl:

Oz Girl, I do see your point and agree that some of the TBS?s hold the therapeutic segment higher than the academics.  Part of this is because the education for some parents is secondary based on their immediate situation.  I have spoken to some parents whose child hasn?t been to school in months and refuses to go back, so any level of education would be better than what they are getting.
Although the education may not be at the same level as most traditional boarding schools, they do provide enough education to keep them on track and allow them to enter the college of their choice or career path they choose.

Oh Who i think you only took half of my point there. I was saying that both the academics were half hearted and the thrapy shitty. A big part of school is socialization. Wider society does not spill their most mortifying secrets to their peers and rivals. Nor does any regular adult ot teen walk around telling people what they think their issues are with "loving confrontation" because ti makes them look like freaks. Wehn these kids are eventually released into highschool or worse the drunken debauched 4 years that is college they are likely to be pretty lonely and miseable because nobody likes being told how to run their life and too much sharing is anti social.
Moreover you mentioned all the things kids are not exposed to and made "safe" from at TBS. Why is it a good thing to institutionalize kids in a bubble with a fear of the world? Sooner or later these kids will be confronted with sex drugs and life in general. If the world of highschool is so terrible and dangerous why not lock them in the basement for free?

[TheWho]

Oz Girl wrote:

Oh Who i think you only took half of my point there. I was saying that both the academics were half hearted and the thrapy shitty. A big part of school is socialization. Wider society does not spill their most mortifying secrets to their peers and rivals. Nor does any regular adult ot teen walk around telling people what they think their issues are with "loving confrontation" because ti makes them look like freaks.

The therapy seemed to be in-line with what she was receiving at home.  It was a good hand off when she got there.  The kids did have socialization, maybe more so than at home, but it was with a limited amount of kids.  Typically kids don?t share their secrets to everyone in high school, I agree, but these kids are there for a reason and have issues that need to be addressed.  The sharing of their experiences brought them all closer together as friends

Wehn these kids are eventually released into highschool or worse the drunken debauched 4 years that is college they are likely to be pretty lonely and miseable because nobody likes being told how to run their life and too much sharing is anti social.

Yes, I agree the transition back into the real world was difficult for my daughter (I called it the slingshot effect) .  She needed to go back and check out everything she missed and after she was done she moved on with her life.  But we approached the school with this and they addressed the concern and I believe it is better now.

Moreover you mentioned all the things kids are not exposed to and made "safe" from at TBS. Why is it a good thing to institutionalize kids in a bubble with a fear of the world? Sooner or later these kids will be confronted with sex drugs and life in general. If the world of highschool is so terrible and dangerous why not lock them in the basement for free?

This is a good question,  most kids do fine out in the unsafe world and make good decisions, thrive and have a healthy life.  But a very few become ?At risk?, have difficulty thriving and need help and protection so they can grow and thrive.  Once they have the tools and skills or have resolved their issues they go back into the unsafe world of sex and drugs, violence etc. ,like the rest of us, and hopefully handle it in a safer manner (more mature may be a better word).

[Anonymous]

No matter how many times you say it, it will never be true.

[Troll Control]

TheWho said:
But a very few become ?At risk?, have difficulty thriving and need help and protection so they can grow and thrive. Once they have the tools and skills or have resolved their issues they go back into the unsafe world of sex and drugs, violence etc. ,like the rest of us, and hopefully handle it in a safer manner

This is so laden with program-speak.  Did you quote the brochure, Who?

The more you write the less I believe anything you say.  You already admitted referring kids to programs and half-way admitted you take money for it.  I think you're just a marketer getting paid to troll and make referrals.  Probably don't even have a kid at all.  There are just too many shady things about you, too many proven lies and too much that just doesn't add up...

[RobertBruce]

but these kids are there for a reason and have issues that need to be addressed

You know this how?

[Oz girl]

If a kid is only allowed to make good choices without risk of their parents incarcerating them for 18 months, then they are not allowed to really live in the real world at all.
Have you ever stopped to think that the threat of one of these places is what stops kids who get into trouble from seeking help? If i were developing a dependency on drugs I would prolly not go to the family if I thought it would land me in a TBS. It is the "my parents will go postal" factor that encourages kids to lie.

If you actually think that the kind of "socialisation" that Dave Marcus outlined with your daughters school is healthy you are a strange man. In life ppl choose their friends based on whether they like them. A shared love of a common interest like say card games is not considered an unhealthy avoidance tactic.
At TBS anytime a kid becomes close to anyone person they are "banned" so that they can spend hours spilling their guts to random aquaintances. In the event that they god forbid develop any kind of romance, it is seen as some bizarre cardinal sin.
 Tell me who how would you like to have to confess what you and the wife got up to on saturday night to all of your colleagues? How would you like the boss and your parents to grill you about it for hours on end?

[TheWho]

Oz Girl wrote:

If a kid is only allowed to make good choices without risk of their parents incarcerating them for 18 months, then they are not allowed to really live in the real world at all.
Have you ever stopped to think that the threat of one of these places is what stops kids who get into trouble from seeking help? If i were developing a dependency on drugs I would prolly not go to the family if I thought it would land me in a TBS. It is the "my parents will go postal" factor that encourages kids to lie.

Well, that?s a good point, I think it would break the trust between the parents and child if the child thought the parents would freak and send them away.  If the parents say? Keep it up and you are off to boarding school?  then the child knows the consequence and the communication would break down?.never thought of it that way.

If you actually think that the kind of "socialisation" that Dave Marcus outlined with your daughters school is healthy you are a strange man. In life ppl choose their friends based on whether they like them. A shared love of a common interest like say card games is not considered an unhealthy avoidance tactic.
At TBS anytime a kid becomes close to anyone person they are "banned" so that they can spend hours spilling their guts to random aquaintances. In the event that they god forbid develop any kind of romance, it is seen as some bizarre cardinal sin.

Well, I remember my daughter had several really good friends and they would run off together have fun and goof about.  They would try to plan their schedules so they could meet at the pool and spend the afternoon on Saturday if they were not going off campus.
But I remember a friend of my daughter had a crush on another boy there (and vice versa)  and they tried to get time alone and succeeded many times and eventually got caught.  It was taken very seriously and they almost got kicked out or sent back to another peer group.  The kids do stuff and get caught but hey they are young and it happens, its life.  The last thing they need is for a girl to be sent home pregnant, though, so I could see the worry!!

Tell me who how would you like to have to confess what you and the wife got up to on Saturday night to all of your colleagues? How would you like the boss and your parents to grill you about it for hours on end?

That would be very bazaar to say the least and it is not something I would volunteer to do.  I think it would make it a little easier if everyone had to do it so I wouldn?t feel I was singled out.  I don?t have a boss, but I know what you mean, I wouldn?t want to go thru that with my colleagues.
But if I was gambling all my money away and waking up with people I didn?t know in strange cities I might understand someone stepping in and confronting me.  

I think you made some valid points Ozzy ?G? thanks for giving me a fesh perspective.

[AtomicAnt]

The Who wrote

Typically kids don?t share their secrets to everyone in high school, I agree, but these kids are there for a reason and have issues that need to be addressed. The sharing of their experiences brought them all closer together as friends

These issues do not need to be addressed in a room full of other children. I think is abhorrent that children should be required to expose their sexual experiences to other children. I would the opposite should hold true. I would not want my child to hear these detailed horror stories.

I remember the Brat Camp episode where a girl was confronted with her history of being sexually molested, not just in front of the entire group of children, but on national television. I was shocked and outraged that this could even be legal. The press does not normally report the names of victims of sexual crimes to protect these people.

Once again, I refer to the recent case of the two Missouri boys who were abducted. All of the psychologists and experts insist they should not be pressured into talking about their experiences. I did not hear one dissenting opinion that they should be confronted and forced to deal with their issues.

Also, in a room full of dysfunctional children, is there no concern that these children will come to think that being dysfunctional is normal? How about being in a school full of dysfunctional children? Without exposure to 'normal' people, how are these kids supposed to see what that looks like?

[Oz girl]

Good point Ant. Aside from ther level of humiliation involved in all of this forced confession, one thing that gets overlooked, particularly with boys is the "locker room factor". Given that these schools are meant to be about better behaviour, they dont exactly teach good taste.

Normally when there is a BS session among highschool boys any trusted adult like a coach etc with a brain tries to impart the idea that a gentleman doesnt tell!

[RobertBruce]

You have to remember that Cindy respects and admires Rudy Bentz, the man who at HLA while in a campus meeting not only encouraged the kids to masturbate as often as possible, but to talk about it.

[TheWho]

AA Wrote:

These issues do not need to be addressed in a room full of other children. I think is abhorrent that children should be required to expose their sexual experiences to other children. I would the opposite should hold true. I would not want my child to hear these detailed horror stories.

Nah,  agreed, Coming from a concerned parent, kids shouldn?t be exposed to sexual details of others.  I would pull my kid in a heart beat, if she was exposed to that.

I remember the Brat Camp episode where a girl was confronted with her history of being sexually molested, not just in front of the entire group of children, but on national television. I was shocked and outraged that this could even be legal. The press does not normally report the names of victims of sexual crimes to protect these people.

I?ll pass on commenting, it was a TV show?..sorry.

Once again, I refer to the recent case of the two Missouri boys who were abducted. All of the psychologists and experts insist they should not be pressured into talking about their experiences. I did not hear one dissenting opinion that they should be confronted and forced to deal with their issues.

Good point Ant,
I think what the therapists are trying to say is with time it will come out naturally.  If a child has been sexually assaulted or has gone thru a traumatic episode the latest methods and research show you should not confront these children, but rather to place them back into their environment and allow them to process what happened to them at their own pace.  A therapist needs to be there to receive the signals of when they are ready to talk??.

Also, in a room full of dysfunctional children, is there no concern that these children will come to think that being dysfunctional is normal? How about being in a school full of dysfunctional children? Without exposure to 'normal' people, how are these kids supposed to see what that looks like?

I believe there is a risk, but I also believe it would be over a longer period of time.  You have to remember that these kids or most of them come to these schools after being in their own environment for 12 + years.  They have the values set out for them by their parents.  So a few months with other kids with similar problems isn?t going to shake their value systems too much.  Plus you have to weigh the exposure to the peers they were hanging out with prior to the TBS.  They may not have had ?Normal? people to model after before.
I think the counselors help to set an example and move them along a better path.

[Deborah]

You have to remember that Cindy respects and admires Rudy Bentz, the man who at HLA while in a campus meeting not only encouraged the kids to masturbate as often as possible, but to talk about it.

Was that a 'bait and punish' technique?

[FLCLcowdude]

You have to remember that Cindy respects and admires Rudy Bentz, the man who at HLA while in a campus meeting not only encouraged the kids to masturbate as often as possible, but to talk about it.

Was that a 'bait and punish' technique?

Sure sounds like it. Good thing that Charles Cates never did that shit. I can't say he didn't do it behind closed doors though...

[Oz girl]

I dont think I have ever come across a system where grownups have such a level of fascination with what a young person does with their own private parts. Very creepy! This lead me to another comparison

At normal school a student's body is their own. nobody wants to know the gory details
At TBS many unsavoury things can garner an unwholesome level of interest from the adults in charge

[Troll Control]

Also, in a room full of dysfunctional children, is there no concern that these children will come to think that being dysfunctional is normal? How about being in a school full of dysfunctional children? Without exposure to 'normal' people, how are these kids supposed to see what that looks like?

Once again, AA, common sense jives with clinical research.  Many studies show that the aggregation of distressed teens exacerbates their problems and that, further, they do not learn the modeled behaviors of the adults in the system, but rather learn the behaviors of their peers, the true models.  TheWho is dead wrong on this point and it has been abundantly proven since the 1950's.

Who, you say you'd pull your daughter if she had to go thru this nonsense.  Well, fact is, she did and you sat on your hands.  Now you refer more kids to the same facility.