Inside the head of a shithead parent

[TheWho]

With that in mind you wouldn't say something like, "All resturants have great food." anymore than you would say "All resturants have terrible food." The prudent thing to say would be something along the lines of "Some resturants have great food and some have really bad food." Or if you want to get more specific you could say something like "Resturant 'A' had really great food, but resturant 'B' was awful.".

Well, if this is the level you can understand best I will help you to understand.  Using your restaurant analogy:

If you are traveling by car in the US, Try to stay away from Drive thru type restaurants and see if you can find a Sit down Restaurant I found them to be much easier on the stomach.
I am endorsing Sit-down restaurants as a whole (in this analogy) and understand that some people may have a bad experience or there are poorly managed ones around the US.  But if you have to choose this is a good start.
The Same goes for Programs We would be looking at TBS?s as a whole.  As we collect more data we can start to say that a specific school is better than another, for the categories we are measuring.
Eventually we can make statement like, stay away from Straight or boot camps in the southwest,  TBS?s seem to have a good track record.  Then eventually we can  provide data on specific TBS? after more data is collected.

[TheWho]

A key point for determining safety in school.

Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000

For school aged shildren :

There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides.
All of which occurred outside of public school, therefore having nothing to do with school safety.

See, I look at it a little different.  I am looking at the safety of the child during the whole day (24 hours) (not just at school or during the academic phase).  The public school data (academic time) Away from school (non academic time).  In a TBS you have Therapeutic time, Boarding time, School (academic time) which is also a 24 hour period.

So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not bein at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:

Outside a TBS:
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.

0 suicides occurred during the school hours
Funny thing is not only does this not matter in the slightest but you have no way of knowing if it's true, nor do you have any means of discovering whether or not its true. Cindy, please do try and keep your manipulations and misinformation down to a minimum.

Thank you, I posed this as an example of how it would be difficult to break it down even further and determine at what phase the suicide occurred (i.e. Therapeutic, Boarding, School phase). A parent isn?t going to care, all they want to know is if their child is going to be safe (24 hours a day)!  The data I am presenting covers those time periods in and out of TBS?s.

[TheWho]

AA,  I think you are looking too deeply into this.... I am only looking at the raw data.

[Anonymous]

Something tells me that if we were able to speak to the person that actually went through the place, we'd get an entirely different picture than the one Karen is painting for us.



http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... start=1830

From the former Prisoner himself- IM in response to the stuff I sent him from Psy

KSA1: did you get my emails? was that exactly like Carlbrook, or was Carlbrook softer?
das1: well they fed us fine
das1: and i dont remember it being that cold
das1: but other than that its pretty much the same
das1: and the structure of the workshop is all the same
KSA1: did they yell at you and force you to make stuff up?
das1: yeah
das1: they didnt force anyone to make anything up
KSA1: it sounds like it is designed to brainwash you- but I thought you liked the workshops
das1: i dont know they were ok
das1: but its like the girl said
das1: if you are cunning and manipulative enough it doesnt get to you
KSA1: like you
das1: because you can play the system and not have your reality screwed with
das1: everyone at carlbrook was weak
das1: i just sat there and let them yell at me

das1: its not just the workshop thats coercive or designed to brainwash you...its the entire school
das1: the whole structure and constitution of the place is designed carefully so that its much easier to go along with it and "buy in" than it is to resist - internally and externally
das1: some of those kids are so fucked up no therapy will be effective

[RobertBruce]

Well, if this is the level you can understand best I will help you to understand. Using your restaurant analogy:

I was actually dumbing it down for you, you seem to be the one having trouble grasping simple concepts. We can take it up a notch if you like.

If you are traveling by car in the US, Try to stay away from Drive thru type restaurants and see if you can find a Sit down Restaurant I found them to be much easier on the stomach.

Bingo Cindy, this is your problem right here.

if you can find a Sit down Restaurant I found them to be much easier on the stomach

. You are using your personal experience to judge an entire industry, exactly what you are doing with TBS's. You believe because you (not your daughter) had a positive experience at ASR, therefore it must be the same across the board, when in reality you have no idea what you're talking about.  

The Same goes for Programs We would be looking at TBS?s as a whole. As we collect more data we can start to say that a specific school is better than another, for the categories we are measuring.

Youre still doing this backwards Cindy, going back to the resturant analogy if you were to have lunch today at a resturant next to your office and found it to be bad you wouldnt use that experience to say "all resturants in this neighborhood are bad." How could you? You've only experienced one. On the other hand say you sampled all the resturants in a two mile radius of your office you could then state "Overall most of the resturants in this neighborhood are good." The point being you have to research things first before you make these general statements, youre wanting to do it backwards and are advocating for places you know absolutly nothing about. How does that makes sense to you?

Eventually we can make statement like, stay away from Straight or boot camps in the southwest, TBS?s seem to have a good track record. Then eventually we can provide data on specific TBS? after more data is collected.

Eventually being the key word, youre wanting to advocate for programs before youve even looked into them. Justify this for me.

[TheWho]

You are using your personal experience to judge an entire industry, exactly what you are doing with TBS's. You believe because you (not your daughter) had a positive experience at ASR, therefore it must be the same across the board, when in reality you have no idea what you're talking about.

In the analogy yes.  But the data we have is not based on my personal experience it was accumulated from NCES and the internet, newspapers and people here at fornits.
This has nothing to do with how I feel or view the industry:

Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:

July 1, 1999 thru June 2000  

Outside a TBS:
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.

The above is not my personal experience but that of others and data collected by the NCES.

Data can be presented in many different ways and in my experience the user (parents in this case) end up dictating how they can best be utilized and what they would like to see.  So I suggest instead of trying to convince each other we just put the raw data out there, continue to collect new data points and if the parents feel they need a different cut we can work on providing that.

[RobertBruce]

See, I look at it a little different. I am looking at the safety of the child during the whole day (24 hours) (not just at school or during the academic phase). The public school data (academic time) Away from school (non academic time). In a TBS you have Therapeutic time, Boarding time, School (academic time) which is also a 24 hour period.

Cindy I know three years old could get this, how are you still missing it? If we are looking at school safety any deaths that occur outside of school are not the public schools respondsibility.

Let's use another analogy since you seem to have better luck with those:

If we were comparing say.....vehicle safety, let's say we're comparing the safety of Honda's to that of Ford's. So we compile a list of how many accidents were reported in Honda's and how many were reported in Ford's, and then we look at the severity of the injuries, how many were fatalities, et cet. After doing all that we find that the rate of people seriously injured in Honda's is much lower than that of people seriously injured in Ford's. You however own stock in Ford and don't want this damning evidence to come to light, so what do you do? You add to Honda's list all the people who were killed or injured on the day they drove their Honda but weren't neccessarily in their Honda at the time of their injury or death. You justify this by stating some nonsensical and moronic like," I am looking at the safety of the driver during the whole day (24 hours) (not just in the car or while driving).

While it's very noble of you to be so concerned with the safety of these children their deaths occuring outside of school have nothing to do with school safety. Nothing. The respondsibility of the public school officals ends at 3:00 when those kids go home. The respondsibility of the TBS officals ends at 11:59 P.M and starts up again at 12:00 AM.

Cindy everyone else seems to get this, me, other posters on here, even NCES. NCES even made a comment regarding this very issue, stating that during the time period in question a kid was 70 times more likely to be killed or committ suicide outside of school.. I'm not sure why you're still so confused on the matter, but the rest of the class has moved on. The data as I posted it is accurate, you've been proven incorrect. Public schools are safer than TBS's based on the data for that time period. Stomping your feet and trying to include other things wont change it, let it go.

The final results for that year are as follows:

1 out of every 3,250,000 kids in public school dying as a result of a homicide during school hours.

and

1 out of every 8,666,667 kids in public school dying as a result of suicide during school hours.

versus

1 out of every 1,875 students in TBS's being murdered.

and

1 out of every 15,000 students in TBS's killing themselves.

If you want to continue to argue the point its of course your perogative but parents can easily see how youre trying to manipulate the numbers. If you continue to do so that credibility youre so obsessed with will be gone.

Now if you'd like to examine a seperate time period I'd be more than happy to discuss the matter, it would only give us a better understanding of how safe these places really are. Or if you'd like to answer my question posed to you last night regarding how many of the kids who died outside of school would you estimate to have been "at risk".

Let me know what you want to do.

[RobertBruce]

In the analogy yes. But the data we have is not based on my personal experience it was accumulated from NCES and the internet, newspapers and people here at fornits.
This has nothing to do with how I feel or view the industry:

Yet you still advocate for the industry without having all the facts.

Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:

July 1, 1999 thru June 2000

Outside a TBS:
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.

Again it's 16 homicides, but I don't expect you to accept any truths at this point. Cindy, youre comparing child safety to school safety. These are not the same things at all, how can you not understand that considering youre the one who wanted to discuss school safety to begin with?

Data can be presented in many different ways and in my experience the user (parents in this case) end up dictating how they can best be utilized and what they would like to see. So I suggest instead of trying to convince each other we just put the raw data out there, continue to collect new data points and if the parents feel they need a different cut we can work on providing that.

Agreed. All I ask is that you seperate deaths that occur in school versus deaths that occur outside of school and that you stop pretending 16 people werent murdered at these places during that time period.

[TheWho]

Sorry you still miss it:

I am looking at Childs safety 24 hours a day.  Not just at school safety , or at the doctors safety or during lunch safety, but the whole day.

A parent isnt just interested in a Schools safety but he would be more interested in the child during the entire day (24 hours).  I know I would be.

Now dont get me wrong the safety of the child at school is important but what is [imore important to parents would be the saftey of the child during the whole day[/i]

I am just looking at raw data at this point:

Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:

July 1, 1999 thru June 2000  

Outside a TBS:
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.

[Anonymous]

Don't get dragged down to his level, Robert, or he'll beat himself with experience.

[TheWho]

Every passing hour brings the Solar System forty-three thousand miles closer to Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules? and still there are some misfits who insist that there is no such thing as progress.

[RobertBruce]

Sorry you still miss it:

What your spin tactics? No I catch them every time, I just don't buy into them because I recognize them for what they are.

I am looking at Childs safety 24 hours a day. Not just at school safety , or at the doctors safety or during lunch safety, but the whole day.

Yet before you wanted to look at school safety, you only changed it because you couldnt get the numbers to work out for your agenda. It's not as if you cared about these kids, afterall you hate your own.

Tell me something Cindy, who is respondsible for the safety of these 2140 kids when they arent in school?

A parent isnt just interested in a Schools safety but he would be more interested in the child during the entire day (24 hours). I know I would be.

Yet you still don't know how many of these kids were at risk, or if they would have been better off in a TBS, so how can you use the data to make such a connection?

Now dont get me wrong the safety of the child at school is important but what is [imore important to parents would be the saftey of the child during the whole day[/i]

Agreed, but you cannot use the deaths of kids outside of school to claim public schools are dangerous anymore than you can claim the deaths of people outside their cars make their vehicles dangerous. It doesnt make sense to anyone but you.

I am just looking at raw data at this point:

Looking, spinning, these words are interchangable for you. Tell me exactly what claim are you trying to make at this point? That public schools are more dangerous or a kid being at home is more dangerous?

Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:

July 1, 1999 thru June 2000

Outside a TBS:
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.

You know what Cindy? I give up, you're right. Let's include the deaths occuring outside of school, I see now when comparing 24 hours in a TBS we should compare 24 hours outside of a TBS for the lives of these kids. You just let me know what claim it is youre trying to make and I'll agree to it.

So with that being settled lets look at the numbers again.

Out of 52,000,000 kids in public school 2,140 were murdered which

translates to:

1 out of every 24,300

and 1 out of every roughly 27,000 kids committing suicide.

versus in a TBS out of 30,000

16 kids being murdered translating to:

1 out of every 1,875 kids being murdered

and

1 out of every 15,000 kids committing suicide.



.........

Wait a tic.....this means.....gosh Cindy, it looks like after all that trouble a kid is still more likely to end up dead at a TBS then he is on the streets or in public school....combined.

I guess you were wrong after all.

 

[TheWho]

No spin,  I am just looking at raw data at this point:

Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:

July 1, 1999 thru June 2000  

Outside a TBS:
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.

[RobertBruce]

Cindy I already told you I agree with you on the 24 hour point. I'm just looking now for you to make some kind of claim regarding this data. Is it that public schools are more dangerous? Is it kids outside of school are more likely to be killed? I'm just waiting on you Cindy.

Our data accepts the 24 hour point though, no question about it.

See:

Out of 52,000,000 kids in public school 2,140 were murdered which

translates to:

1 out of every 24,300

and 1 out of every roughly 27,000 kids committing suicide.

versus in a TBS out of 30,000

16 kids being murdered translating to:

1 out of every 1,875 kids being murdered

and

1 out of every 15,000 kids committing suicide.

[Anonymous]

Of course your the type of person who would ignore deaths that came into question. "Well maybe it was not a murder, though he did choak to death under all those councilers."