Inside the head of a shithead parent

[RobertBruce]

No we don?t. All we have is what the NCES provides us and they have defined their boundary conditions fairly well. What would be in the best interest of this data is to follow closely what they have done so we can make a comparison. Look very closely at the TBS and compare this to Public sector. If a child is not enrolled in school they are not counted. These are for kids who are enrolled only. If they leave this public sector and go to a TBS they are not included in the NCES data set..

Okay but you still don't know what the situation was regarding their deaths, without that information you have no way of determining if they would have been better off in a TBS. Hence the reason why they cannot be included in this data. We are for the moment looking at school safety only. If you want to add that as something seperate be my guest, but it has nothing to do with this comparision.

[TheWho]

Wrong. At 3 o'clock when that bell rings and those kids go home the respondsibility for student safety ends for the administrators of the school. The school day never ends for a kid in a TBS until the next one begins. The kids in the TBS are meant to be under 24 hour supervision and care. You seem to forget I did attend one of these places, I do know what its like a great deal better than you ever could. On top of that the TBS's bill themselves as safer enviroments so then the microscope should be held that much closer, and the standards should be that much higher.

Exactly,  I agree 100%, So the TBS is overseeing the kids day and night (24 hours).  Where in the public sector the kids spend only a portion of the day at school (academics) and the rest of the time they are away from school.  The NCES struggled with this early on and decided to break it out this way, just for that reason.
At a TBS the TBS takes responsibility for the away from school portion as well as the school portion.  So we can measure how good a job they do by comparing the public sectors (School plus away from school) with the TBS which handles both.  This way we can see how safe the children are at a TBS vs not at a TBS.  You need to remember some kids are attending TBS not to keep them safe from their time at school but also their time away from school.  Many kids develop ?At Risk? behaviors outside of school and can get themselves killed or commit suicide also.
So we are not just comparing the effectiveness/ safety inside of the public school system but the child?s life, in and out of a TBS.

[TheWho]

Okay but you still don't know what the situation was regarding their deaths, without that information you have no way of determining if they would have been better off in a TBS. Hence the reason why they cannot be included in this data. We are for the moment looking at school safety only. If you want to add that as something seperate be my guest, but it has nothing to do with this comparision.

In the Public sector we do if it was ruled a homicide or suicide.  The NCES has clear guide lines.  We need to match that exactly in order to make a comparison.  We are looking at the safety records of the kids in the public sector vs a TBS environment.  There are other categories, like assault, robberies etc. that could be compared also as I believe the NCES is expanding their spectrum.

[TheWho]

Fine, the problem is you're speaking in general terms. By claiming things like "TBS's are safer than public schools" you're including all TBS's. According to the data this isnt true, and all youre doing when saying it is giving parents misinformation and possibly putting their children in danger. Now if you wanted to claim something along the lines of "The ratio of kids being killed is lower at ASR than the national average." and assuming it was true I don't believe there would be a problem with it.

Well I think when we present the data we make it very clear what the data is and where it comes from.  If the data comes from NCES, we state that.  The data accumulated from Fornits people and the internet we can add an asterisk saying where the data comes from and what it represents so that the parent can make an informed decision and decide if the data is secure enough for him/her.
A parent needs more than one source and parameter to make a decision; I expect this to be just one of them not a deal sealer or breaker but merely a part of their journey to collect enough info to make a decision for their child.

[RobertBruce]

Exactly, I agree 100%, So the TBS is overseeing the kids day and night (24 hours). Where in the public sector the kids spend only a portion of the day at school (academics) and the rest of the time they are away from school. The NCES struggled with this early on and decided to break it out this way, just for that reason.

The NCES never compared the public schools to the TBS's. This wasnt something they struggled with because it wasnt something they cared about.

At a TBS the TBS takes responsibility for the away from school portion as well as the school portion. So we can measure how good a job they do by comparing the public sectors (School plus away from school) with the TBS which handles both. This way we can see how safe the children are at a TBS vs not at a TBS.

Again we are comparing school safety only. The safety of the students is no longer the public schools concern once those kids leave the school. In the same manner if a kid at a TBS were to be killed while on a visit with his parents it wouldnt be the schools respondsibility would it? Of course not. It's the same thing here, the schools are not responsibile for the safety of the students when they are not at the school. The TBS's claim to maintain that safety 24 hours a day. Public schools do not,thus public school kids who die while not at school are not the schools respondsibility. I don't see how you can claim that it is.

I want you to remember some kids are attending TBS not to keep them safe from their time at school but also their time away from school. Many kids develop ?At Risk? behaviors outside of school and can get themselves killed or commit suicide also

Once again you're speculating, but it makes no difference. If the ratio of kids dying in TBS's is higher than that of at a public school then that tells us that kids are less likely to be killed at a public school versus that of a TBS. This seems to be what the data is telling us.

So we are not just comparing the effectiveness/ safety inside of the public school system but the child?s life, in and out of a TBS.

No, because as already illustrated there really isnt a life outside a TBS other than a few visits per year. Public school kids can seperate school from home and what goes on at each one. TBS kids cannot.

[RobertBruce]

In the Public sector we do if it was ruled a homicide or suicide. The NCES has clear guide lines. We need to match that exactly in order to make a comparison. We are looking at the safety records of the kids in the public sector vs a TBS environment. There are other categories, like assault, robberies etc. that could be compared also as I believe the NCES is expanding their spectrum.

Not public sector, public school, that is what we are looking at, nothing else. You started this conversation with your claim, now the data isnt going your way so youre trying to change the criteria. It doesn't work that way. Look at it like this. Say a public school kid comes home from school one day and while there someone breaks in the house to rob it, finds him there and kills him. Now say that same kid attended a TBS and while he's home for a visit he comes home one day and while there someone breaks in the house to rob it, finds him there and kills him. In that scenario it made zero difference as to what kind of school he went to, public or TBS. This is why there is no reason to include the data regarding public school kids who die away from school. We are looking at school safety, kids who die at school. TBS or public nothing outside of that arena. If you cannot prove your point within those parameters then concede the point and move on the another matter.

[TheWho]

The NCES never compared the public schools to the TBS's. This wasnt something they struggled with because it wasnt something they cared about.

No, what they struggled with was if it would add value to break out the data to ?At school? and ?away from school?  or whether they should just combine it and state it together, the NCES has no affiliation to TBS?s at all.

The TBS's claim to maintain that safety 24 hours a day. Public schools do not,thus public school kids who die while not at school are not the schools respondsibility. I don't see how you can claim that it is.

It is not, I agree.  The schools responsibility ends when the kids leave, thus (at school vs away from school), but the kids can be at risk either time (at school or away from school) so the NCES broke the data out for this reason.  They are not just measuring school safety but the safety of the kids when they are away from school.  The NCES isn?t saying that the deaths that occur away from school are the schools responsibility and either am I.  But the kids are still at risk after school and that is what the NCES is reporting.
In a TBS setting the TBS takes on the responsibility of the ?At School? (academic time) and the ?away from school? (non academic time).  We compare this to the safety of the kids ?At school? (academic time) and ?away from school? (non academic time) in the public sector.  
How many deaths occur in the public sector  vs TBS  setting

This way you are comparing the safety of the child in a TBS setting vs a non TBS setting.
This way we can start to answer questions like, How effective are TBS?s in keeping a child safe from suicide/Homicide as compared to being outside a TBS (not just during their academic times).

[RobertBruce]

Well I think when we present the data we make it very clear what the data is and where it comes from. If the data comes from NCES, we state that. The data accumulated from Fornits people and the internet we can add an asterisk saying where the data comes from and what it represents so that the parent can make an informed decision and decide if the data is secure enough for him/her.
A parent needs more than one source and parameter to make a decision; I expect this to be just one of them not a deal sealer or breaker but merely a part of their journey to collect enough info to make a decision for their child.

Put all the asterisks you want on things, just stop making general statements. This seems to routinley cause you headaches, you may want to work on that.

Consider this: The highschool I graduated from has been in operation for about 100 years. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a homicide on campus, this is something the school can take pride in: Look at us, been here 100 years and not a single kid ever murdered. Much safer than other schools." Of course this claim would be true, but lets say they took it a step further, let's say they said something along the lines of "Look at us, we've been 100 years and not a single kid murdered. This provesthat public schools are safe." Well no it really doesnt, it simply proves that particular school is safe. Nothing more. When you claim that TBS's are safer then public schools when the data suggests otherwise (as it appears to be doing) then you are in fact lying to parents and putting kids in danger. In the same regard just because there hasnt been any homicides in my highschool doesnt negate the fact that there have been in a school 100 miles away. If I tell parents because my highschool is safe all of them are safe and then a parent puts their kid into that school 100 miles away from and he ends up dead, that's on me. Examine individual schools if you like, talk about the ones you feel to be safe, but stop generalizing and stop refusing to look at all the facts.

[TheWho]

From a parents view point when they have a child at risk they are looking for a place to keep them safe.  This safety includes their times away from school.  Many kids get into trouble after school, make poor choices with friends at home etc.
If we provided them data comparing how many suicides/ homicides at a public school vs at a TBS during their academic period.  We would be robbing them of the entire picture.  I as a parent, I would want to know how safe the kids were after the academic period was over, like in their dorms (how many suicides occurred).  How safe are they during therapy, dinner etc. not just their academic times.

We need to compare the kids safety 24 hours a day at a TBS vs 24 hours a day away from a TBS.  This is what a parent would want to see and we have the data to present this.

[RobertBruce]

It is not, I agree. The schools responsibility ends when the kids leave, thus (at school vs away from school), but the kids can be at risk either time (at school or away from school) so the NCES broke the data out for this reason

Understandable, but since we are comparing school safety kids who die away from school do not factor into our comparisson.

They are not just measuring school safety but the safety of the kids when they are away from school. The NCES isn?t saying that the deaths that occur away from school are the schools responsibility and either am I. But the kids are still at risk after school and that is what the NCES is reporting.

Fine, include it in a seperate category if you like, but you cannot lump those deaths together with kids who die in school and call it the same thing. Espically since NCES didn't. The problem centers on you not knowing what the circumstances were surrounding their deaths and whether or not being in a TBS would have made a difference.

In a TBS setting the TBS takes on the responsibility of the ?At School? (academic time) and the ?away from school? (non academic time). We compare this to the safety of the kids ?At school? (academic time) and ?away from school? (non academic time) in the public sector.
How many deaths occur in the public sector vs TBS setting

Public school, again you began this conversation wanting to compare public school safety to TBS safety. Now you're trying to change the parameters because the data isnt reading out how you like. A TBS is respondsible for the safety of the kids 24 hours a day whether they are in class or not. What you're doing is basically akin to me claiming that if a kid was in the cafeteria when he died it doesnt count, or if he was at a school function rather than the regular day. If they are at school it counts, plain and simple. If they arent it doesnt.

This way you are comparing the safety of the child in a TBS setting vs a non TBS setting.
This way we can start to answer questions like, How effective are TBS?s in keeping a child safe from suicide/Homicide as compared to being outside a TBS (not just during their academic times).

No, because again you do not know that those kids who committed suicide or were killed outside of school would have survived had they been in a TBS. You have no way of knowing.

The only thing we can knowingly and respondsibly compare is the amount of deaths in public school versus those in a TBS. This will tell us school safety which is what we are trying to discover. Everything else at this point is pure speculation.

[RobertBruce]

From a parents view point when they have a child at risk they are looking for a place to keep them safe. This safety includes their times away from school. Many kids get into trouble after school, make poor choices with friends at home etc.

Agreed.

If we provided them data comparing how many suicides/ homicides at a public school vs at a TBS during their academic period. We would be robbing them of the entire picture. I as a parent, I would want to know how safe the kids were after the academic period was over, like in their dorms (how many suicides occurred). How safe are they during therapy, dinner etc. not just their academic times.

Which is exactly what we are doing. We arent limiting TBS kids deaths to strickly academic hours.

We need to compare the kids safety 24 hours a day at a TBS vs 24 hours a day away from a TBS. This is what a parent would want to see and we have the data to present this.

You're comparing apples and oranges and trying to call them the same thing. We are talking about school safety, nothing more. If you want to create a seperate category regarding deaths and suicides that occur outside of public school then be my guest. Just remember you're speculating when you try and use that data to claim those kids would have survived had they been in a TBS. You have no way of knowing that.

[TheWho]

In the same regard just because there hasnt been any homicides in my highschool doesnt negate the fact that there have been in a school 100 miles away.

That is why the NCES includes all schools and the kids enrolled.

If I tell parents because my highschool is safe all of them are safe and then a parent puts their kid into that school 100 miles away from and he ends up dead, that's on me.

Exactly, I am not saying all treatment centers are the same or safe.  I am focusing on TBS?s as a design.  Some may be worse than others.  Inner city schools may have a higher rate than in a rich neighborhood.  All these factors need to be weighed when viewing statistics.
By looking at the data a parent can get a first dry cut which may tell him to stay away from TBS or look at it closer.  The data may say Hmmmm.  Looks like they are doing a good job lets look at this closer or   Wow?.. I should stay away.

I think it would be reckless to say all TBS are safe.  But as a design they may be safer than the public sector (or where they are now)

Examine individual schools if you like, talk about the ones you feel to be safe, but stop generalizing and stop refusing to look at all the facts.

I think it would add value to look at a sector like TBS together and I am willing to add events as they occur or come to light and adjust the data.  The facts are the only thing driving this.

At some point we could look strictly at Wilderness programs or group homes, boot camps etc.

[TheWho]

You're comparing apples and oranges and trying to call them the same thing. We are talking about school safety, nothing more. If you want to create a seperate category regarding deaths and suicides that occur outside of public school then be my guest. Just remember you're speculating when you try and use that data to claim those kids would have survived had they been in a TBS. You have no way of knowing that.

No Apple and apples, I am talking about Kid safety 24 hours a day!  Where are they safer inside a TBS or outside a TBS?  This is the question I am trying to answer and I think parents would like to have this info to help their k ids.

I dont think we need to try to claim individual cases would turn out differently if they had been in a TBS or the other way around, there just isnt any way of knowing.  All we can do is present the findings and allow the parent to make a better decision.

[Anne Bonney]

No Apple and apples, I am talking about Kid safety 24 hours a day!  Where are they safer inside a TBS or outside a TBS?  This is the question I am trying to answer and I think parents would like to have this info to help their k ids

Ya know what Who?  Put a chastity belt, lojack and a great big bullet proof bubble around you kid and just be done with it.  Make the bubble big enough for some "life coach" or similarly qualified expert to do your job for you.

 :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :flame:  :flame:  ::noway::  ::noway::  ::bangin::  ::bangin::  ::bangin::  ::bangin::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::fuckoff::  ::both::  ::fuckoff::  ::both::  ::fuckoff::  ::both::  ::fuckoff::  ::both::

[RobertBruce]

No Apple and apples, I am talking about Kid safety 24 hours a day! Where are they safer inside a TBS or outside a TBS? This is the question I am trying to answer and I think parents would like to have this info to help their k ids

But before it was school safety the only reason you've changed it is because the numbers werent coming out how you wanted them to. I've already told you, create a seperate category if you like, we can look at that as a seperate topic if you like, but for the time being we are comparing safety for kids in a public school versus kids in a theraputic school both while they are at school.

You cannot lump the two together and call it the same thing when it clearly isnt.