Author Topic: Inside the head of a shithead parent  (Read 39015 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline RobertBruce

  • Posts: 4290
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #210 on: January 31, 2007, 06:04:22 PM »
Cindy wrote:

Quote
Calm down Bob

Oh Cindy, I am calm. We went over this last summer, you often mistake my disdain and ridicule for you as anger and frustration. Cindy I honestly see you as a joke, nothing more. You cannot as hard as you try upset me or get me riled up. Afterall, I have the truth on my side and you......well you have to make shit up Cindy. Now I do wish you wouldn't spread your disinformation to prospective parents, but when they actually read what you write and then look at the facts we present as a rebuttal they come to the correct concluscion anyway. It just takes a little longer and you waste their time.



Quote
It must be tough for you to sit down now

Why would it? I'm actually sitting at my desk right now and have been since I last got up to use the bathroom......wait......Cindy don't tell me.....Oh my God. Cindy you've gone too far now, you raping small woodland animals is sick enough but now youre allowing the larger animals to have their way with you? Sick sick sick. Y0u need help Cindy...fast. While you're getting over your animal fetish, accept that not everyone is into the same disgusting things youre apparently into. Freak.

Quote
I would have been finished here 20 pages ago but I just cant resist.

Well now this is interesting....it would seem to suggest that you stuck around because you were trying to accomplish something. What was it Cindy? Was it you were trying to somehow beat me? Were you trying to win at something Cindy?

I told you so.

Quote
I do appologize for upsetting you.......


Not to worry litle Cindy, as I've mentioned to you many times, you couldn't upset a greiving widow. You just arent capable. Espically concerning me, I find you laughable at best, nothing more. Meanwhile however while I've answered every question you've put to me and countered every point you've made, you've carefully avoided any question or point that might upset your delusions concerning TBS's. It looks like you were the one whos been upset..


Sorry Cindy.  :cry:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #211 on: January 31, 2007, 06:56:34 PM »
Quote
Sorry Cindy.


Thats okay......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RobertBruce

  • Posts: 4290
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #212 on: January 31, 2007, 08:07:41 PM »
Yeah I'm sure youre used it by now anyway.

Oh I'm still waiting on you to answer this question:

Quote
Tell me Cindy how do your actions help these kids?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline teachback

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1042
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #213 on: January 31, 2007, 08:08:00 PM »
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:


 ::bwahaha:: "I'll bite your legs off."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline teachback

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1042
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #214 on: January 31, 2007, 08:08:52 PM »
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
I rather enjoy having the who babble on about numbers. It keeps him out of any important discussions.

Shh... don't give him any ideas! :lol:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5006
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #215 on: January 31, 2007, 09:23:09 PM »
Sound like anyone we know?



http://www.nospank.net/camps.htm

On February 4, 1992, 5' 4" tall, fifteen-year-old Paul Choy was being taught a lesson he wouldn't forget -- his last, as it turned out. According to the official version of events, Choy was required to sit on a wooden platform in the cold for five hours as punishment for failing to finish a five-mile run. That's five hours of shivering and without bathroom breaks. Finally, in reckless desperation, he gave his keepers just the signal they were waiting for. They were poised for action. Two staff mambers restrained him in what District Attorney Jorgenson described as something like a full Nelson. They held him for about ten minutes, after which time they noticed he wasn't breathing.

    ... Well, you can't just let these punk kids ignore the rules, can you? You gotta put 'em in their place, right? If they're out of control, you restrain 'em, right? When they don't cooperate, you gotta make 'em cooperate, right? And when they come lookin' for trouble, you give 'em trouble. They ain't in boot camp to be mollycoddled, you know, but to learn respect for authority. And I'm not their goddam granny who's gonna give 'em hot coco when they need their butts kicked...

That was the scene, more or less, at a place prophetically called Rite of Passage.

Paul celebrated his 16th birthday at Washoe Medical Center in Reno, brain dead and on life support. Before he died, a nurse at the facility, trained to identify signs of sexual assault, observed injuries consistent with anal rape.

His was the first such case to come to my attention.

I've lost count of the number of children killed by suffocation in custodial settings. Yes, I said "suffocation." I know the preferred euphemism here is "accidental restraint-related death." But out of respect for the victims and respect for the English language, I opt for the other word.

After the event, there was the predictable mad scramble to rationalize it. This explanation emerged: Paul was too frail a boy for that particular camp. He didn't have the "athletic ability." He should have been sent somewhere more suitable. His "accident" was the result of an unfortunate, but innocent, bureaucratic oversight. The authorities miscalculated when they sent a puny, little Asian kid to a camp designed for tough young thugs who are inured to being knocked around--ones who would benefit from being marched and exercised to exhaustion and could safely bounce back from almost any amount of brutal treatment. The camp staff were only doing their job. The camp management was only following time-tested procedures. One boot camp apologist characterized Paul's demise as part of the "the window of loss," as though he were an egg in a large shipment of eggs to market. One must expect some breakage, particularly among the ones with prior defects. It's the price of doing business. Presumably, the "window of loss" is a small window, and the few who fall through it don't detract from the larger picture.

Whenever the subject of youths dying violently in custodial settings breaks in the news, which is becoming more frequent as larger numbers of them are funneled into that industry, there is a call for better training of staff. One rarely hears the recommendation for more stringent vetting of applicants for staff positions. That would be unduly accusatory. The mere suggestion that there are people employed in such places who shouldn't be there, who are unfit to be entrusted with the power of life and death over the powerless, would shift the focus of attention onto politically dangerous territory. It could be the first step toward opening a debate over the very essence of youth boot camps and the like, their stated purpose and purported efficacy. It is far safer to leave an engine that is running -- and running well -- alone. Tinker with peripherals, if you must, such as better training for current staff, but don't challenge the fundamentals. Surely no one can reasonably object to better training. Every sensible employee welcomes additional training to help improve job skills. And just think of the exciting new employment opportunities for those who will be the trainers. Everybody wins. Hopefully, those who are unsuited to youth work will be weeded out, or will gracefully weed themselves out during the training process.


This is wishful thinking.

In fact, there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that sadists and bullies are that easily diverted or that they can benefit from in-service training, except, perhaps, to improve their ability to do their dirty work undetected. Also, having been duly trained and certified gives kid keepers an extra measure of deniability in the event of an "accident." It is interesting to note that developers of so-called restraint procedures prescribe frequent periodic refresher courses for staff. Does the science of restraint change that often? Or is this a tacit recognition of the fact that "restraining" a teenager is a peak experience for some users, and they are apt to get carried away in the act?

Offshore facilities serving the "troubled youth" market typically operate in places where child abuse prevention laws are virtually nonexistent and recruit staff from among the locals. How thoroughly job applicants' qualifications to work in educational/therapeutic settings are assessed is anybody's guess. Employers are the sole arbiters of that standard. "Out of sight, out of mind," seems to be their unspoken motto.

Stateside facilities typically set up in remote, inaccessible places where a laissez faire approach to child abuse prevention prevails and where they can easily isolate inmates from all outside contact, even from contact with their families. Isolation, they say, is essential to the success of the program. That's true, but not in the way they imply. It is hard to imagine a more favorable environment for custodial institutions staffed by people with few, if any, marketable peacetime skills.

To date no one has been able to document that boot camp graduates fare better for the experience. The self-serving anecdotal "evidence" touted by the industry's shareholders and enthusiasts, must set every skeptic's bullshit alarm bells ringing -- if the number of deaths were not enough.

        IN MEMORIAM

        Michelle Sutton, dead at age 15, Summit Quest
        Kristen Chase, dead at age 16, Challenger
        Paul Choy, dead at age 16, Rite of Passage
        Aaron Bacon, dead at age 16, Northstar
        Dawnne Takeuchi, dead at age 18, VisionQuest
        Lorenzo Johnson, dead at age 17, Arizona Boys Ranch
        Carlos Ruiz, dead at age 13, VisionQuest
        Mario Cano, dead at age 16, VisionQuest
        John Vincent Garrison, dead at age 18, VisionQuest
        Bernard Reefer, dead, VisionQuest
        Robert Zimmerman, dead, VisionQuest
        Charles Lucas, dead, VisionQuest
        James Lamb, dead, VisionQuest
        Tammy Edmiston, dead, VisionQuest
        Leon Anger, dead, VisionQuest
        Latasha Bush, dead at 15, Daystar Residential Treatment Center
        Charles Collins, Jr., dead at age 15, Crossroads for Youth
        Jamie Young, dead at age 13, Ramsey Canyon
        Randy Steele, dead at age 9, Laurel Ridge Psychiatric Hospital
        John Avila, dead, Rocky Mountain Academy
        Danny Lewis, dead at age 16, VisionQuest
        Nicholas Contreras, dead at age 16, Arizona Boys Ranch
        Edith Campos, dead at age 15, Desert Hills
        Matt Toppi, dead at age 17, Robert Land Academy
        Chirs Brown, dead at age 16, Robert Land Academy
        Eric David Schibley, dead at age 17, VisionQuest
        Robert Doyle Erwin, dead at age 15, VisionQuest
        Lyle Foodroy, dead, VisionQuest
        Gina Score, dead at age 14, State Training School (South Dakota)
        Bryan Dale Alexander, dead at age 18, Texas Correctional Services
        Michael Wiltsie, dead at age 12, Eckert Youth Alternatives
        Tristan Sovern, dead at age 16, Charter Behavioral Health System
        Robert Rollins, dead at age 12, Devereaux School
        Andrew McClain, dead at age 11, Elmcrest Psychiatric Hospital
        Anthony Haynes, dead at age 14, American Buffalo Soldiers Boot Camp
        Ian August, dead at age 14, Skyline Journey
        Charles "Chase" Moody, dead at age 17, The Brown School (CEDU affiliated)
        Roberto Reyes, dead at age 15, Thayer Learning Center Boot Camp
        Travis Parker, dead at age13, Appalachian Wilderness Camp
        Christening "Mikie" Garcia, dead at age12, Star Ranch
        Linda Harris, dead at age 14, Chad Youth Enhancement Center
        Martin Lee Anderson, dead at age 14, Bay County Sheriff's boot camp, Florida
        James White, dead at age17, SummitQuest,
        Giovanni ''Joey'' Aletriz, dead at age16, SummitQuest

        ...and counting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline teachback

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1042
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #216 on: January 31, 2007, 09:28:05 PM »
OMFG.... That's a lot of dead kids..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline teachback

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1042
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #217 on: January 31, 2007, 09:43:10 PM »
TSW had it right when he was considering direct communication (via the web) with kids who may be in danger of being thrown in to abusive "treatment" centers. There ought to be a site that sets about informing & encouraging these potential victims to use their voices to hopefully defend themselves against being sent to a TBS, etc. It would be good if the site appealled to teenagers somehow; maybe someone should start a myspace blog or something like that to try to 'get the word out' to the KIDS!

The kids ought to know about this stuff too..maybe they could teach their parents about how stupid and harmful these places really are.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #218 on: January 31, 2007, 10:06:12 PM »
The only way to really do it- THE ONLY WAY- is to post on the off-topic sections of forums frequented by teenagers.

The vaccine to the programmie disease doesn't spread on its own because it's simply too disgusting to talk about. Kids will not spread this, because they, like everyone else, would rather not think about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline teachback

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1042
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #219 on: January 31, 2007, 10:15:42 PM »
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
The only way to really do it- THE ONLY WAY- is to post on the off-topic sections of forums frequented by teenagers.

The vaccine to the programmie disease doesn't spread on its own because it's simply too disgusting to talk about. Kids will not spread this, because they, like everyone else, would rather not think about it.

Interesting. Yes, something like that is perfect.

No, you are right. People would rather not think about it; I feel that. Then the best thing would be to somehow attempt to reach some of the kids that are more obviously at risk. Like say kids near a certain "school" would (don't ask me how) be sought out and warned via the web.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #220 on: January 31, 2007, 10:46:45 PM »
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Actually when we include all the wilderness programs and group homes that you'd rather we not include the number jumps up to 16 homicides during that time period.

Sorry Cindy you can try and spin it anyway you like you just can't change the reality that these places are much more dangerous than public schools.

No way around it.

Ha,Ha,Ha,  of course if you add more parameters the numbers will grow.  I dont think anyone would expect them to shrink (no pun intended)

It's not adding parameters.  Any "therapeutic boarding school", "treatment center", "wilderness therapy", "emotional growth school" or anything else that uses the LGAT/raps/propheets is abusive and dangerous.  There are kids dying in these places every year.  It's different than in public schools.  It's systemic.  It comes from the very "treatment" being provided (restraints or excessive physical punishments, physical "coersion" :roll:  , fuck that!  It's physical force.)  That doesn't even address the psychological damage being inflicted upon these kids when they're at their most vulnerable.  You will not and cannot understand what fucking with someone in this form does.  You think you know all about it but buddy, believe me.  You haven't even scratched the fucking surface.  My prediction is that you and your daughter end up pretty much like my dad and I have.  The "good" relationship we "built" in Straight was fake bullshit, even if I didn't really understnad that at the time.  Remember, a lot of us came out of Straight singing it's praises for a number of years, swearing that it "saved" us or helped us realize our "true selves".  The relationship was always stressed and tenuous.  He never really knew me in any real sense.  I never knew me, how could he?  We faked and fumbled and tough loved our way through the last 20 years or so, not speaking at all for the last 6 until recently.  You've heard my story.  That's what you've got to look forward to unless you open your eyes.   I'll never trust my father again, ever.  And it's a shame because he could have been a great man, I mean a truly great man.  Most everyone that knows him thinks he's great, always have.  Whaddya wanna bet he's still secretly talking about it to his new friends in that small town he moved to?  How he had this poor, doomed child that he saved by being selfless enough to do the tough but right thing.  Yanno, not every parent has the strength to do that. :roll:  It gets a little annoying when I know the truth.  But god knows, I worshipped that man....which allowed for him to have way too much influence on my life and how I lived it and how I viewed myself.   Our relationship was shattered.  That may or may not have changed if he had opened his eyes, I don't know.  I sure wish we would have had the chance though.  Have a nice life.


First I would like to say I am sorry that the relationship you have with your father has changed as a result of going into Straight and you guys have been estranged for awhile. I read what you allowed me to hear and a few stories you told others on other threads.   I also read quite a bit about what ginger had gone thru and how it affected her then and still does now and I truly think that sucks.  To me straight (the stories I have heard) seems so cruel and far from what I experienced at ASR, although you mention your father still seems to think it was a good decision, I would hope that with the evidence of how it operated and affected the entire family he would see that maybe it wasn?t all that positive.  I see that but it may be easy for me because I wasn?t a part of it.  My experience with ASR has been so different in comparison.  When my daughter was there and I visited her we had a little difficulty communicating and things were stiff for awhile, I chalk that up to us both being out of our element and we needed to repair our relationship which was damaged a bit prior to her going in.  But as the months and visits progressed our relationship was repaired over time and by the time we met in Costa Rica she was her old self again.  I don?t feel any tension when we talk at all.  She doesn?t mind calling me out in front of my friends when I make a mistake, as she always had and me her.  Like you said your father doesn?t know how you feel and believes he made the right decision still to this day.  Maybe my daughter feels the same way as you do and I am not catching the signs, but after being on Fornits and reading the stories I have become more aware of what could happen and sometimes when we talk I ask her how she is doing, if she is happy in her daily struggles and try to read her body language or look for a dark side that doesn?t seem to be there, she likes to talk about it and tell stories about things that happened at ASR.  There were kids that had a hard time, like Goodtobefree and Badpuppy (I believe was another example) and I don?t think they should have gone there, but what is the answer?  Don?t send anyone?  How do we know who will succeed and who will get hurt?  I agree that certain things need to change so that everyone can benefit.
As far as the data.  When this started out I was curious why no one collected data to present to parents and as I got into it I wanted to see how TBS (which my daughter attended) compared to public schools.  I choose TBS and not Wilderness and mental hospitals or boot camps because I felt some of them were more hazardous and I truly believe they are not all the same (I know this is an unpopular position here).  I just don?t think it would be accurate to compare a lock down facilities statistics to a place like ASR or a Mental hospitals Suicide rates to ASR.  I do believe that from a suicide point of view that if TBS were totally ineffective they would have an extremely high rate compared to public schools because they have kids who are at a higher risk (I know this will bring many angry posts), but in any event this is what I feel to be true and if they were effective the rates would be in line with the public sectors findings.  I do know beyond this statistic there is the mental (non physical) abuse that is talked about here and this cannot easily be measured, I agree and I am not sure how to approach this or how anyone would get their arms around this because there is no empirical data to compare this to.  I do believe this occurs and is real, but how is it to be approached, measured and eliminated?
I know I have taken a light hearted and sometimes whimsical approach to the collection of this data but I have been met with some resistance by some who don?t seem to feel the data is important or are afraid the data will not go their way or suit their needs (we call them ankle bitters in my circles because they are afraid to be part of the solution or larger picture so they try to tear others down) and I find this, to say the least, bazaar behavior, especially at the early stages of data discovery.  So I have had some fun with it and have collected some great information along the way which will hopefully benefit kids someday via educating some parents and steering them towards the better schools.  If I can be part of helping one or 2 kids it will be worth it..........wow a little long winded.......anyway that is why I am looking at only one parameter at a time....hope it helps.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline CCM girl 1989

  • Posts: 1308
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #221 on: January 31, 2007, 11:39:59 PM »
Wow, such a classy guy!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline RobertBruce

  • Posts: 4290
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #222 on: February 01, 2007, 12:00:09 AM »
Everything was fine until right about here................



Quote
I know I have taken a light hearted and sometimes whimsical approach to the collection of this data but I have been met with some resistance by some who don?t seem to feel the data is important or are afraid the data will not go their way or suit their needs (we call them ankle bitters in my circles because they are afraid to be part of the solution or larger picture so they try to tear others down) and I find this, to say the least, bazaar behavior, especially at the early stages of data discovery.


Cindy I'm not resisting the data because it isnt going my way. The fact of the matter is it has gone my way and reinforced what I and others have been saying all along. The resistiance youre experiencing and you yourself as demonstrating is due to the fact that you continue to ignore facts you don't like and spin the data to suit your needs. People arent embracing your bullshit and youre resisting the truth, but I guess that's just your way you little ankle bitter you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #223 on: February 01, 2007, 01:59:40 PM »
Quote
Cindy I'm not resisting the data because it isnt going my way..............................


It looks like we finally agree on the data, at least.  It?s a long time coming.  Okay lets summarize:

We found an opportunity to compare Homicides and suicides which occur in the public sector to TBS?s via a study conducted by the NCES (National Center for Educational Statistics).  The time frame they studied was between July 1, 1999 thru the end of June, 2000.  So utilizing internet searches and information here on fornits we were able to accumulate data from the same time frame.
What NCES found was that during the stated one year period over 1,922 school children committed suicide and an additional 2,100 plus kids were victims of Homicide.  After extensive searches we found that there were no homicides in TBS?s and 2 children took their lives during this same time period.

As the NCES continues to collect and publish their statistics it will allow us to track the success/failure of TBS over time.  This could become a powerful tool and assist parents in their decision to send or not send their children to a TBS.

Note:  The dataset is active and can be updated at anytime if new information comes to light.  The NCES has completed a new study in a more recent time frame which will give us another look.  I can set this up in a day or so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RobertBruce

  • Posts: 4290
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Inside the head of a shithead parent
« Reply #224 on: February 01, 2007, 03:30:25 PM »
Quote
It looks like we finally agree on the data, at least. It?s a long time coming

Yet another example of how Cindy spins data to suit his own needs or agenda. He does so by refusing to look at any data which proves his points wrong or taking statements out of context. It's sad really, but not at all suprising.

No Cindy, we don't agree on the data because I'm right and you're wrong. You've proven this by being unwilling to look at all the facts and all the data.

No matter how you spin this you just can't change the facts, get angry if you want but all youre really doing is ruining that credibilty youre so obsessed with.

Not that you ever had any to begin with.



Quote
We found an opportunity to compare Homicides and suicides which occur in the public sector to TBS?s via a study conducted by the NCES (National Center for Educational Statistics).

Wrong. The data you used didnt even mention TBS's. You did that on your own, of course you docotred the results and refused to examine all the data but hey maybe I'm just nitpicking right?

Quote
The time frame they studied was between July 1, 1999 thru the end of June, 2000. So utilizing internet searches and information here on fornits we were able to accumulate data from the same time frame.
What NCES found was that during the stated one year period over 1,922 school children committed suicide and an additional 2,100 plus kids were victims of Homicide.

Once again you want to include public school kids who die either by sucide or homicide away from school. Explain how they factor into this conversation.


Quote
After extensive searches we found that there were no homicides in TBS?s and 2 children took their lives during this same time period.


No you found that because you refuse to accept the facts. This is what we found:

Quote
Once again youre counting kids who were killed outside of public schools, something that has nothing to do with this conversation, but looking again at your figures.

16 homicides in TBS's out of 30,000 translates to 1 out of every 1,875 kids being killed.

versus at a public school

2100 homicides out of 52,000,000 translates roughly to 1 out of every 24,762.

Once again despite your best efforts youve proven public schools to be safer than TBS's. Thanks again Cindy.


It's time you accepted it Cindy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »