Dundee

[Anonymous]

In any country that has ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of a Child any child held against their will is being held against international law.

doesn't matter whether you think it's right or wrong- it's part of the treaty and was thoughtfully added.

I'm sorry for parents that had sleepness nights worried about their children...(maybe their own parents had the same nights yet did not pay to have them incarcerated to get some sleep and most grew out of it as the parents walked through it with them)

What really makes me sick is those that continue to dwell on what my child did to me.. someday I hope they will know that the child they incarcerated may have many sleepless nights accompanied my nightmares that may be more real than we all know and you may have paid for it.

Your child may not be your biggest problem. Sadly your child may reap what you sowed.

[Anonymous]

That last post was one BIG assumption.  Maybe this, maybe that.  My wish is that every child who was given the gift of the wwasp program reaps the benefits, and for the parents that cared enough to go the distance as hard as it was/is.  You are my heroes!

[Anonymous]

Again, I note the floods of gushing parents praising the programs to the skies and the virtual absence of people who have actually been incarcerated in these places, and been out for five years or more, showing up to discuss their program experience in both careful detail *and* having that experience not include being abused or neglected or witnessing the abuse or neglect of others.

I predict very lonely aging experiences for these program parents.

[Deborah]

What I noticed is more defense for sending your child away. No answers to the questions about where you draw the line in terms of abuse and BM techniques. Are we to assume that you support the techniques spelled out by others- punishment for looking out the window, looking at the opposite sex, looking at self in the mirror; limited calories, restraint, kneeling for hours on a hard surface, etc? I'm sure i missed a few.
I suppose that is irrelevant to you. Other parents want to know how their child will be "treated" while in "long-term" care. You make this BM program sound like a bonefide psychiatric hospital. Long-term treatment....  :lol:  in a program designed by a used car salesman and a electrical engineer. Appears neither possessed credentials to set up a facility(s) for "long-term treatment"?

[Anonymous]

The International treaty on children?s rights in section five states the following

 Article 5

States Parties shall respect the responsibilities, rights and duties of parents or, where applicable, the members of the
Extended family or community as provided for by local custom, legal guardians or other persons legally responsible for the child, to provide, in a manner consistent with the evolving
Capacities of the child, appropriate direction and guidance in the exercise by the child of the rights recognized in the present Convention.

Simply put this means that the Parents or guardians rights of how to educate and what kind of boarding school the child attends is to be respected and recognized...otherwise a true Owellian dictatorship of a state not the family will dictate the values the child learns one could argue that this is already the case and the family is being destroyed by real intended but misguided people in Governments all over the world...no one has a better feeling for the needs of the child then the parents who are naturally, bond by blood and genetics and affection.

The children at Dundee where not held against their will but were enrolled by the parents whose rights as recognized by the treaty had every right to place them in Dundee...If you follow the argument just advanced in that the children were held against their will then how can government have compulsorily education wherein if the child refuses to go to school both the child and the parent go to jail AGAINST THEIR WILL...Again this is Political Correctness run amok if you place your child in a prestigious boarding school on the east coast he or she cant get up and walk out onto the street and the dangers there in with out the parents release and the schools release this is identical to what existed at Dundee.  The children were placed in the boarding school in some cases in lieu of Juvenile prison...Dundee never put a gun to these parents heads to sign their contract and do placement.... The parents exercised there rights in behalf of their wayward children according to National and international rights...DUNDEE WAS THE AGENT OF THE PARENTS by signed and notarized legal contract and thus acting to any reasonable interpretation of the placement of children in a boarding school environment...If children were ever stopped from leaving it was out of concerns for their own safety and at anytime the parent requested them to leave they did?. the policy was very clear and followed religiously. Again well intended Beliefs or interpretation of law by advocates of child rights do not determine the law the law determines itself with its intent and the law on parental rights for minor children in this case is clear and well defined by past judicial presedent.

[Anonymous]

OK, so Dundee was an agent of the parents - doesn?t that just mean that the parents are Intitled to the Truth about Circumstances and Conditions at Dundee?
I would think so. . .
I am certain they were not.

[Anonymous]

It used to be legal for parents to kill their children, or put them to work in mines and sweatshops.  It used to be legal for parents to break their children't bones, or starve them, or beat them and leave huge welts.

In Atlanta, the House of Prayer found out that times have changed and community standards of what constitutes abuse and neglect really do matter.

It's pretty clear to me that if the rest of us in the community want to exercise oversight to ensure minimal community standards of safe and humane childcare are met, we're going to have to intervene through Congress and our state legislatures first, and then through our state agencies and state and federal courts.

So be it.

The more the Atlanta House of Prayer parents screamed that it was okay and necessary to beat kids with sticks and belts, the more the community came to realize those folks needed to be reigned in by force of law and the courts.

The more the Program parents scream that it's okay and necessary to punish kids for looking out a window and restrict their mail and limit their food and throw them in restraints, the easier it gets for me to persuade friends, family and other community members that you folks need to be reigned in by force of law and the courts.

I'd like to take a moment to thank all you Program parents for assisting us in the ongoing effort to build momentum to regulate your sorry asses and protect children from your excesses.

[Anonymous]

Every state in our union has child abuse laws to protect children from abuse- if parents always make the best decisions for their children we'd have less need for these laws. I would guess the majority of abuse is handed out by parents as decisions are easily made in anger, retaliation and a show of power.

Parents that are prepared to follow a program directed parents "exit plan" from their child and basically disown their children unless they complete the chosen program may not be the best advocates for their kids. It would seem that they have a somewhat short sited view and are not concerned about long term relationships unless of course the child gets with the program.

I am not convinced that many have tried every avenue of help but have found promises in the warranty on children and lower costs with the hope of financial help through the financial rewards of referring other families.

What looks like a take all referrals without professional evaluation is also concerning. You could be on your way to Harvard on a scholarship but if your parents were convinced you needed this treatment- it seems you could be kidnapped in the middle of the night and the program may hold you for years.

That stinks.

I agree with others that some of these parents will pay the ultimate price - never knowing their adult children and in some cases how can you blame the children, some may wish for a warranty on their parents.

don't have all the answers but believe we can do better for children and families. This industry is out of control.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-17 08:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"It used to be legal for parents to kill their children, or put them to work in mines and sweatshops.  It used to be legal for parents to break their children't bones, or starve them, or beat them and leave huge welts.



In Atlanta, the House of Prayer found out that times have changed and community standards of what constitutes abuse and neglect really do matter.



It's pretty clear to me that if the rest of us in the community want to exercise oversight to ensure minimal community standards of safe and humane childcare are met, we're going to have to intervene through Congress and our state legislatures first, and then through our state agencies and state and federal courts.



So be it.



The more the Atlanta House of Prayer parents screamed that it was okay and necessary to beat kids with sticks and belts, the more the community came to realize those folks needed to be reigned in by force of law and the courts.



The more the Program parents scream that it's okay and necessary to punish kids for looking out a window and restrict their mail and limit their food and throw them in restraints, the easier it gets for me to persuade friends, family and other community members that you folks need to be reigned in by force of law and the courts.



I'd like to take a moment to thank all you Program parents for assisting us in the ongoing effort to build momentum to regulate your sorry asses and protect children from your excesses.







"

Well said Anon! Parents who sanction the abuse of their own children are beneath contempt.  They are not parents.  They are defective human beings with no conscience and unworthy of any reward other than a one-way ticket to Hell.

 :flame:

[Anonymous]

Anon,  

Not so fast! I too at one time beleived the program was a gift to my child.I really did believe that. I use to say "my child is one of the lucky ones." I belived he was receiving quality care.That he was recieving emotional growth, leadership skills, a quality education.

It was all a lie. He was dodging verbal and emotional, physical mistreatment. Striving to stay under the radar of the "alledge" sexual predators.

If only what they sold us, was even close to the reality.   Wakeup they lie.

The GIFT is no gift . It's a sham for money. Rackeetering of children for MONEY.

If the Program is such a gift where are the kids singing their praises .All I have ever heard are the complaints. The complaints made my blood run cold.

[Anonymous]

Staff and Faculty at Carolina Springs Academy:
 
I just wanted to write a small note thanking everybody in the WWASP program for making my family safe again.  Before having a daughter like Hannah, I could not imagine how a self-destructive teen can not only destroy themselves, but can destroy the lives of their entire family.  Though our friends and family are well intentioned, and try to be empathetic, I see even they still don't understand how a single teenage person can destroy the lives of so many people.  They still have no idea what it is like to watch your family be torn apart, when everything we've tried has failed and in most cases made the situation worse.  Every family experiences some disagreement and difficult times, but most people honestly just don't understand that a family can be ripped to shreds through the actions of an unruly teenager.  This family can try everything and can simply run out of choices when family imposed consequences fail, counseling and therapy fails, school interventions fail, even our extended family, aunts and uncles, cousins and grandparents couldn't help either.
 
When Hannah was living at home, our entire family was in chaos.  Her mother and I were having marital problems, as she tried diligently to break up our marriage.  She almost succeeded by telling her counselor that I (her step-father) was beating her up.  Fortunately the counselor was able to see through the ruse, but legally he had to report it to social services anyway.  Her younger brother and sister were living in constant fear.  Though Hannah's room was not near theirs, her mother and I were unable to sleep at night fearing that she would go into their room to attack them.  The last straw was the night she attacked her brother with a baseball bat while her mother and I had gone to the grocery store.  Luckily her brother was able to barricade himself in his room before she harmed him, but the hole in his bedroom door remains as a reminder of just why we made the choice to enroll Hannah in Carolina Springs.  I will never know the terror he must have experienced in that room alone as she began to tear through his door while cussing at him, screaming and threatening him in the process...thank God we got home when we did!!
 
Since Hannah has been enrolled, we are en entirely different family.  I still remember the day, about a week after she was gone when I was taking laundry to the washing machine.  As I approached the door to the laundry room, which also led toward Hannah's room, I felt my stomach tense up and my heart sink.  Then I remembered...oh yes, she's not here anymore, it's safe for all of us.  I slept very well that night...for the first time in months.  Her brother and sister and mother and I are a family again.  We laugh together, we enjoy time together, we play games together and enjoy projects together.  I am happy to report that those who know us are beginning to see why we made the choice to enroll Hannah.  People who spend time in our house are noticing that her brother is becoming an extrovert, laughing and enjoying life more now than ever before.  He is enjoying sports and making friends, where he used to stay in his room and be quiet for days with fear of upsetting his older sister.  Her younger sister is developing her own identity, listening to positive and uplifting music and making friends that have a positive influence on her life, instead of attracting to the self-destructive types that Hannah (her role model) had displayed.  To any person who is concerned about the effectiveness of Carolina Springs and other WWASP programs, I would invite them to spend some time with a family that has been directly involved and has experienced the benefits first hand.
 
What is most remarkable is the change we've seen in Hannah herself.  She is beginning to take the steps required to learn responsibility and self-respect.  (Which of course leads to respect for others as well.)  Not only is our household safe now, but Hannah is also in a safe environment where she can no longer experiment with drugs, sex and other self-destructive behavior.  There is no family that can provide 24-hour around the clock supervision for their children the way Hannah and many other children need.  We learned this when she was skipping school.  I am writing because I received a letter from Hannah last week, and in it she said "I love you"  In all the years I have knows Hannah she has never uttered those words to me before.  We are seeing signs of incredible change not only in our family, but in Hannah, whom we love so much we made many great sacrifices (refinancing the home and taking out other loans) to do this incredible thing for her.  I am so very grateful for your school, and that you are able to do provide the direction and guidance for Hannah to help her begin to make these more productive choices.
 
God Bless you and the Wonderful Work that you do
 
Gregory A. Miller
 
P.S.  Hannah was one of the students who moved to Carolina Springs from Dundee Academy in Costa Rica.  When Dundee closed, our first priority was to get Hannah home.  So we got to visit with Hannah for two days before she moved on to Carolina Springs.  We were blunt, we shared the rumors of abuse and negligence we had heard in Costa Rica, and we let Hannah read the newspaper reports.  Hannah assured us in her own words.  "None of that happened" she told us.  "It's really hard" she said, "and I miss my family, but I know that I am learning some very valuable things."  Hannah had only been in Dundee ranch for a few months, and was still a level one with the fewest privileges and perks allowed.  If anyone were to be negative about the school it would have been her.  However after being in Dundee Ranch Hannah made the choice to go to Carolina Springs, because she knew it was in her best interest!!

[Anonymous]

Dear George,

What a lovely story.  I am sure Hannah appreciates her name being on this public forum.

She obviously is not home yet, and yes I read your footnotes.  Personally, I am very happy for the new family life you all have and I only pray the success and growth continues.

BUT does that justify all the abuse, fraud and neglect others have experienced?  No it doesn't. All the best to you and yours, but my thougths are with the ones that have suffered, the ones you don't want to hear about.

A parent that has been there.

[Cayo Hueso]

Yeah, talk to me in a few years....I remember feeling the same way right after I got out of 'treatment'.  Thought I owed my life to those people etc. etc.  After about a year and a half I couldn't figure out why I was so damn angry, sad, depressed and so on.  I mean, I was SOBER...going to meetings, going to aftercare, even married another graduate.  When I was able to associate with normal people again, I began to realize how controlled I still was and how I didn't see any of the shit that happened to me as abuse.  I had it pounded into my head so many times that I would be 'dead or on the street' without the program that I BELIEVED it for a time.  Same with the other shit about how I did the things necessary to deserve being put in there, blah, blah, blah.  Look up Stockholm Syndrome....you'll see a description of what has happened to your daughter.  I hope when she wakes up from lala land (and she will, most definitely) she'll be able to find it in her heart to forgive you.  I hope you'll be able to see the gravity of your mistake.

May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.
-- George Carlin

[Anonymous]

Mr. Miller, I read your statement and accept your "belief" that this school has helped, not harmed, your child.

My question to you is how do you reconcile the possibility that your daughter most likely was acting out in proportion to the turmoil created by her parent's marital difficulties?  

Personally, I believe family therapy was in order here, not forced behavior modification for a young, albeit very angry, girl.

I also question whether your daughter's endorsement of these 2 programs is not grounded in her own belief that she may be better off being in a program than at home, where she was clearly miserable?

If so, then how in the world can you equate that with success?  This is parenting by proxy.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-18 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Staff and Faculty at Carolina Springs Academy:

 

I just wanted to write a small note thanking everybody in the WWASP program for making my family safe again.........  

God Bless you and the Wonderful Work that you do

 

Gregory A. Miller

 

P.S.  Hannah was one of the students who moved to Carolina Springs from Dundee Academy in Costa Rica.  When Dundee closed, our first priority was to get Hannah home.  So we got to visit with Hannah for two days before she moved on to Carolina Springs.  We were blunt, we shared the rumors of abuse and negligence we had heard in Costa Rica, and we let Hannah read the newspaper reports.  Hannah assured us in her own words.  "None of that happened" she told us.  "It's really hard" she said, "and I miss my family, but I know that I am learning some very valuable things."  Hannah had only been in Dundee ranch for a few months, and was still a level one with the fewest privileges and perks allowed.  If anyone were to be negative about the school it would have been her.  However after being in Dundee Ranch Hannah made the choice to go to Carolina Springs, because she knew it was in her best interest!!"

The following is an excerpt from Orange Papers http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-gulags.html :



Carolina Springs Academy near Abbeville, S.C., promises a pleasant stay in the country,
"But investigators for the South Carolina Department of Social Services found conditions there far less idyllic. In the fall, the agency three times ordered the facility to close because it was operating without a state license. Richard Byars, Carolina Springs' director at the time, refused, saying the compound was a boarding school, not a residential care facility, and didn't need a license."

State social services investigators inspected the facility in December and January. Their reports said that they found a very long list of abuses and malpractice, including that:

The doctor who was "treating" many of the teens never actually visited the facility.

Several teens, including at least one who had attempted suicide before arriving at Carolina Springs, no longer were taking medication for depression.

One girl told them that another girl "tried to kill herself. She was hitting, kicking, spitting, etc. They said that her hands were crossed over her chest and her wrists were handcuffed behind her neck. They said duct tape was put over her mouth and around her legs. At the top of the stairs, she jumped on her head to try to break her neck so she could go to the hospital."

The social services agency said the staff members at Carolina Springs weren't qualified to work with teens. Most of the staff's previous work experience was nothing more than flipping burgers for minimum wage.

Children's records contained little information about previous hospital stays and psychological evaluations.

Teens' letters home were censored to keep them from telling their parents what was going on.
Both the state's Department of Social Services and the Department of Health and Environmental Control sought court injunctions to order the facility closed.

When this story ended, the facility was still open and still keeping teenagers prisoner, while it and its lawyers negotiated with the state agencies.