Dundee

[Carey]

Just want everyone who did not get a chance to read the last article on Dundee to know where to go to find it.

http://www.ticotimes.net/archive/03_20_03_2.htm


Carey

[Carey]

Does anyone know what happened to Boarding School Truth site?  I suspect one of two things, either WWASP has paid them off to keep quiet or they have taken their site down due to the class action law suit that is underway.

[Anonymous]

I can't say for certain, but I really don't believe BS4 could've been " paid off."
I don't know why a pending leagle action would matter.
I haven't seen anything anywhere other than speculation. Most seem to think wwasp somehow squashed it. What ever the answer, I wish it would pop back up - I miss it.

[Carey]

How can WWASP simply squash it?  I don't think that can be done without some explanation or reason being given.  I don't beleive the owner of the website would let that happen without putting up a fight,  not after all the hardwork that went into it.   There is a reason why the owner of the website will not respond to those of us who have inquired.  I can only come to the two conclusion I already stated.  For some questionable reason, the owner is not willing state what those reason were.

[Anonymous]

::alieneyesa::  ::

[spots]

As I noticed, sites such as BS4 which were hosted as free sites by large ISP's (like Earthlink or Voy Forums) disappear regularly.  The WWASPS legal tactics may run toward a threatening letter to the host ISP, saying in effect, "You are publishing inflammatory, false, damaging, etc. information and we will sue you if you continue to facilitate damage to our business".  The large hosts who provide the bandwidth for free don't see any reason to spend even $10K defending themselves, and there doesn't need to be a bit of truth to the threats from WWASPS to make them decide to cancel the offending forums...just some saber-rattling by the Utah Abuse Poo-bahs.  If we could get one ISP to stand up for its First Amendment free speech rights (and spend some money doing so), WWASPS would probably back down quickly, especially if the "loser" has to pay court costs.  But the truth is that these ISP's consider controversial forums a tiny factor in their business, and quickly cave instead of standing up for constitutional rights.  Too bad.

[Janet]

I agree with spots.  BS4 and "teenrebellion" were both on Angelfire.  They were dropped from Angelfire within hours of each other.  BS4 found another board to start over, but was kicked off of that one in a matter of days.  Teenrebellion was a particularly good web site on WWASP and on Cross Creek Manor. BTW when I went to look for teenrebellion on Angelfire, the notice on her web page stated that she broke some contactual rules, but did not state what the rules were or how I could find out more from Angelfire.

[Anonymous]

Dundee Ranch was a great program creating an environment for growth and change for its kids in its care. The owners out of safety concerns shut it down for the kids in their care in response to the riots created by the well intended but naive government of Costa Rica. The ?Temp? fiscal Mr. Vargas, (who wasn?t even a full official just a temp who covered for the full fiscals while on vacations) in a shameless grandstand for the gathered media was only driven by ambition and power. He possibly saw in the false allegations and the media attention the hope of a newfound political career and chance to become fully vested as a Fiscal. Who wouldn?t want to be seen by the world as ?saving kids? it?s as old as politicians kissing babies. Mr. Vargas in his illegal actions was told to stop and leave by the judge who is now suing him in Costa Rica. She was the true legal authority in the situation after Nicole deniken affirmed before her no abuse existed, after being harassed by Mr. Vargas for 2 hours to influence her testimony. What happened next created the only situation, we who worked there for 2 years knew of abuse to the kids and others who were the Dundee family?Vargas entered the scene only after the NY times had published a slanderous one-sided article on casa by the sea. The allegations by Ms Flowers had already been rejected by the supreme court of Costa Rica of having no evidence or merit the allegations had then been taken to the full time regular fiscal by casa alilanza. Casa alilanza is an advocacy group that makes its money out of the amount of publicity it creates with allegations for its causes some of which have great merit. But in this case they were poorly researched ?Mr. Harris or anyone else at casa alilanza for that manner, has publicly stated he has never been to Dundee. But simply relied on the allegations of Ms flowers just published to get more attention and therefore more money for his causes. Mr. Harris has recently been unsuccessfully sued in other countries for his outspoken approach which approach is fine if it?s the truth? Ms flowers is a person who had lost her parental rights to her daughter by her own actions and choices in a legal court of law in the United States. She came down to get the relationship back with her daughter at any cost including making up allegations of abuse. The local full-time ?Real? Fiscal reviewed the allegations and saw they were simply e-mail and hearsay from people of dubious motivations and character and shelved the information. Then 2 months later went on vacation and thus entered Mr. Vargas and the firestorm that has followed. False allegations of abuse are the most salacious situation that anyone can be in?in an environment wherein some kids see them as a ticket out of the program?. Allot of these kids have a long history of not telling the truth that is why they are there in many cases. These kids truly understand the social welfare systems that are set up rightfully for their protection and how to abuse or manipulate it dishonestly through a false allegation?Such allegations are sort of like running into a crowded room and yelling "Fire" it really doesn?t matter if there is a fire or not the media and others who make a living off of such gossip will automatically act as if there was and then you really do have a true case of "abuse" or "Fire" But not to kids or person who made the allegation but to the owners and employees who have literally put there livelihoods, reputations, and lives all on the line to try to help the kids in question. Again real people with real families and over 90 employees lost there jobs and reputations over these false allegations and are now being abused over and over again on forums such as this ?If you want truth here it is the only abuse we were aware of at Dundee was what has happened since the actions by Mr. Vargas and others

[spots]

Regarding the lengthy post supportive of Dundee, its actions in closing for the protection of the children, the name-calling of Fernando Vargas, etc....

Wow, does this sound like the quotes in interviews with Ken Kay!!!!  Same syntax, same yadda-yadda about "they're all liars" and "kids are notoriously manipulative; you really have to watch them", blaming the non-custodial mom of a Dundee student for being, well, non-custodial, even though we all have absolutely no idea how the Court made such a determination.  Likely, Ms. Flowers husband made much more money and was able to provide better for his daughter than the recently-divorced wife, except when he decided to use his money to have somebody else lock her up.  

If Mr. Kay feels it necessary to respond in such a manner to our posts about abuse at Dundee, maybe we're on to something.  Ken, don't you have people who do this stuff for you?  Or are you so panicked that you sit at the computer and bang out the same ole crap that you give to reporters?  Glenda should be available to spin her syrupy psycho-babble, especially since she was not able to put out a Source magazine this month, and sent out last month's edition instead.  Hhmmm... having any kind of money crunch Mr. Kay?

[Anonymous]

Big difference, SPOTS, is that this posters statements can be confirmed as the truth.  The allegations served a purpose and hurt a lot of individuals and families.  Thanks to the staff and director, no one was seriously physically injured by Mr. Vargas' actions.  Can't say as much for the grounds, buildings...and emotions of those that were there.

I know nothing of Su Flowers, but wouldn't a court of law be very careful about taking the custody away from a mother without serious issues with her ability to take care of her daughter being researched first?  Money or not?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-14 11:34:00, spots wrote:

 Glenda should be available to spin her syrupy psycho-babble, especially since she was not able to put out a Source magazine this month, and sent out last month's edition instead.  Hhmmm... having any kind of money crunch Mr. Kay?  "

http://www.wwasp.com/source03/Feb-04L.pdf

[Anonymous]

it wasnt posted by Mr kay but by people who were actually there and have the facts...How deluded are you to think that freedom implies no limits... you sound just like Mr. Vargas before he started the riots at Dundee. He thought that the kids would respect him when he illegally told them they could do ANYTING... that some how in Costa Rica unlawful acts like sodomy, vandalism, and assault with clubs on the staff and other students was some how covered in the signing of some international treaty on Childs rights...He and the police and social workers, the very people charged by the law to protect the students stood by and watched as all the acts named above were performed in the name of freedom...Then they the adults Pani, Vargas and the police got in their cars and drove away as the fiasco worsened and didn?t turn out the way they thought it would for the press...as students were walking down the road to be kidnapped raped abused or whatever in a strange country?? Its so hypocritical to sit and talk about abuse that never happened and not address the real abuse by the Costa Rican officials trying to get their name in the World press at the expense of the safety of the 200 students and the 90 staff members whose lives and reputations have been slandered by people like those on this forum repeating gossip and slander that they really don?t know or understand. But then again the truth rarely sells newspapers as well as the false allegations do...and everyone is an expert with everyone else?s kid and situation...its sort of like the situation NOW and other women?s groups found themselves in when they failed to come out and condemn Clinton while he was abusing the office of the presidency, because he sang their song and had their world view.

[Deborah]

***Its so hypocritical to sit and talk about abuse that never happened and not address the real abuse by the Costa Rican officials trying to get their name in the World press at the expense of the safety of the 200 students and the 90 staff members whose lives and reputations have been slandered by people like those on this forum repeating gossip and slander that they really don?t know or understand.***

Were you there anon? Or are you taking the word of a journalist, or the word of program staff, or the word of Kay? It is not hypocritical to discuss and debate issues that are reported in pubic news, whether accurate or not. My ONLY critcism- I did wonder why the CR authorities didn't take the kids to a safe holding space until their parents could arrange for them to be shipped to the states.


...and everyone is an expert with everyone else?s kid and situation...

Oh give us a break. We know you make $1000 for every referal you provide the program. Are you presuming yourself to be an expert when you suggest that a child should be warehoused? You program people are the worst for telling other parents what they should do with their kids.

***its sort of like the situation NOW and other women?s groups found themselves in when they failed to come out and condemn Clinton while he was abusing the office of the presidency, because he sang their song and had their world view***

Abusing the office of presidency? Guess you're refering to Monica? What two consenting adults do is none of your business, or anyone else's for that matter. Perhaps those groups are a little more on the ball with this issue than yourself. Ms Monica was not a "victim". My recollection is that she initiated the affair. I resent that $1 of my tax dollars went to this fiasco. What a waste. I spose you'd have him warehoused in a personal growth facility for "womanizers". So program of you.

Seriously, are you more concerned about the moral issue, him being married? Or that he was diddling on the clock? Was he on the clock 24/7?

[Anonymous]

Anon.  Those that are condeming you for telling the truth about the events at Dundee, are not wwasps people, for the mostpart.  They have been involved in other programs and are forever saying it's the "same" thing.  My heart goes out to you because I know you cared for those kids.  WWASPS programs respect kids and want them to learn to respect themselves.  Too many parents that condemn you on this board that were wwasps parents still wanted to control their child's actions while they were gone.  They were looking for any excuse to bring their child home because they felt guilty for not being able to handle it by themselves.  A mature parent will know when to let go and get help for themselves and well as their child.  Too many of us know that it didn't work at home because our children didn't think they were destroying their lives and didn't buy into therapy or other sources we tried prior to turning to long term treatment.  No one here will believe our kids were not abused.  You will agree that they were more abusive to themselves and just loved to blame other people for their choices.  

Some lady talked about sleep deprivation somewhere on this board.  Yes, we were sleep deprived, but it wasn't during seminar, it was when our kids were out running the streets, getting high, and disrespecting the family in ways that were way beyond normal teen stuff.  

I won't lower my standards to justify the view it was "normal."

[Anonymous]

Deborah - got news for you.  A parent that talks to other parents about a wwasps program NEVER tells them what they should do. The parents in crisis really need to figure that out for themselves.  When they see the results from the teens that graduated, they want what they have and consider it an investment, not an expense.  The parents that talk to the other parents do it from their hearts, not their wallets, as you so nicely assumed.  As a parent that was once where they were, I was so grateful to talk with someone who understood the fear and didn't seize the moment by scaring me even more.  I did that myself.  That parent got ZERO dollars for talking with me, but I would have gladly paid her ten times over for being there for me.  

Now my family has what those families had over 4 years ago.  I'm on here because it's really unbelievable that this crap is being written about a program that changes so many people for the better.