Confrontation Thread: IE Karen In Dallas Apology PMs

[psy]

If you want to cut a major program "supplier" off, I want you to reach former parents, still stuck in their fantasy world of "oh gee, they saved my kid's life."

Karen still inhabitates that world willingly and isn't coming out. Karen has never changed her tune. She has always been critical of Carlbrook and other programs. Nobody is changing her mind here. Go read her old posts and you will see that they are exactly the same. The truth is plain to see. This website is filled with accounts of horrific abuse at programs. She, like other people who post here with pro-program agendas, use those tales of abuse to make their programs look better than the shit that's already out there. That disgusts me.

It disgusts me too.  However, What is Karen's agenda?  Do you have any evidence?  Some people are decent inside?  Do I believe she is?  Perhaps.

People beyond redemption: TTI ed-cons, program staff, natsap members.  as far as i'm concerned they should all be hanged like Saddam.  and that isn't a joke.  the whole program mentality is cancerous.  Whenever one school shuts down, the staff scatter, starting their own little hellholes.  hang them all and end it.

[psy]

She just said it appeared to work for her kid.

So do my parents. And nothing could be further from the truth.

So talk to your parents until you convince them otherwise (i did with my dad).  Mom's in progress.

Make them pissed off at your treatment.  All you have to do is tell the truth and back your story up evidence (other people's testimony, books, research).

Imagine a million pissed off parents with disposable income...

I explained to them what was going on in real-time through letters. So anything now is just a farce, we all know it so there's no point really. My only point with this post is not every parent is ignorant and loving, some get exactly what they pay for and still think its a great idea. I don't put Karen in that same category, I just think she's really slick at sneaking in a pro program agenda under guise of being critical of Carlbrook.

Letters in program?  or outside?

[Anonymous]

It disgusts me too. However, What is Karen's agenda? Do you have any evidence? Some people are decent inside? Do I believe she is? Perhaps.

People beyond redemption: TTI ed-cons, program staff, natsap members. as far as i'm concerned they should all be hanged like Saddam. and that isn't a joke. the whole program mentality is cancerous. Whenever one school shuts down, the staff scatter, starting their own little hellholes. hang them all and end it.

I believe her agenda to include reccomending SNWP to program parents who post here. If her posts are not scrutinized, she will seem more credible so I agree with those who question her vigirously. I don't think it's about decency, she could be a really cool person, but that doesn't mean she can't hold a fundamentally flawed belief. I have christian friends who think fags are teh debil and should be reprogrammed too, but there really is no middle ground with them as far as I am concerned. They are wrong, and their theory holds no justifiable recourse in my view. As far as redemption, I still don't know how you convince someone who honestly believes they are saving lives, that they are in fact doing the opposite. It just doens't compute with them.

Letters in program? or outside?

Both.

[psy]

She used to recommend Carlbrook. She does not anymore.

For the same reason Sou stopped reccomending WWASPS programs. To gain credibility. The ploy worked, obviously.

How would you feel if I thought Benchmark was a lighter version of the program I was at, and dismissed all claims of abuse.

I would feel sorry for you.  I would roll my eyes since i've heard it all before.  Talk to the average shmoe on the subway about this and hear their reaction.  Nobody believes the industry exists at all.

What other people feel doesn't really matter to me unless they are in a position of influence.  Parents are in a position of influence.  When a program parent hears you were in a program they immediately go "aha.  just as manipulative as my son".  When a parent says the same thing it's "oh my god!".  Not always, but the chances are better.

Say I was at TB and forced to lay on my face for weeks, does that give me the right to reccomend other programs that aren't as bad based on my experience?

That's what she is doing with the wilderness program she loves so dearly.

She is going to recommend the place, here, or elsewhere, until somebody convinces her otherwise.  Is it hopeless?  possably (i'm guessing she does it out of ignorance and misguided good-will).  Is it pointless to try? no.

[Nihilanthic]

Wishful thinking and attempting to win the ARGUEMENT by appealing to a middle ground, you mean?

[Anonymous]

She is going to recommend the place, here, or elsewhere, until somebody convinces her otherwise.

This is a corporate lawyer making six figures, she's smart enough to figure it out on her own. She HAS it all figured out, she has reached her conclusions, and I happen to disagree with them.

Is it hopeless? possably (i'm guessing she does it out of ignorance and misguided good-will). Is it pointless to try? no.

I am not saying you should stop. All the power to you, good luck sincerely. I am just saying I don't agree, I see something else happening which is an acceptance of "lighter" programs by an increasing number of people. This is the agenda of ST. They are anti-wwasp and anti abusive programs, and then sell you other programs. Its no different. I know I would never feel comfortable telling a parent what to do with their kid, even though they ask all the time I just don't answer. Who am I to know and why are they asking a complete stranger?  :-?

[psy]

It disgusts me too. However, What is Karen's agenda? Do you have any evidence? Some people are decent inside? Do I believe she is? Perhaps.

People beyond redemption: TTI ed-cons, program staff, natsap members. as far as i'm concerned they should all be hanged like Saddam. and that isn't a joke. the whole program mentality is cancerous. Whenever one school shuts down, the staff scatter, starting their own little hellholes. hang them all and end it.

I believe her agenda to include reccomending SNWP to program parents who post here. If her posts are not scrutinized, she will seem more credible so I agree with those who question her vigirously. I don't think it's about decency, she could be a really cool person, but that doesn't mean she can't hold a fundamentally flawed belief. I have christian friends who think fags are teh debil and should be reprogrammed too, but there really is no middle ground with them as far as I am concerned. They are wrong, and their theory holds no justifiable recourse in my view. As far as redemption, I still don't know how you convince someone who honestly believes they are saving lives, that they are in fact doing the opposite. It just doens't compute with them.

Letters in program? or outside?

Both.

It's possible to deprogram anybody by providing facts that solidly disprove their beliefs.

There are exceptions.  If the result of the information would produce too much guilt, the mind protects itself against the knowledge with denial (common problem with deprogramming parents).

That "roadblock" in their deprogramming is the biggest pain in the ass with some parents.  It would kill them to know so their mind protects them.

Still.  Even then, repeated exposure to reality, the facts.  Keep at it and eventually you can force them out of it (if you want to push things).

Alternatively, it the parents do not present a danger (by recommending programs left right and centre), you can just let them be in their little fantasy worlds.

If it's important to you that your parents know the truth, don't stop until they do (just don't push them too hard or they might "lock up"... if they do that, good luck finding the reset button).

[psy]

Wishful thinking and attempting to win the ARGUEMENT by appealing to a middle ground, you mean?

Incorrect assumption about my strategy.  pm/im me if you want my "legal strategy"

[Anonymous]

Keeping my parents out of my life is probably the one thing keeping my sane at this point. As fucked up as I can be, they are even more childish and petty than I am and surprise when I left at 18 things got that much easier. But I know exactly what you mean about the general society person you tell about these things, most common response i've heard, "they wouldn't let something like that happen in america."  :roll:

[Nihilanthic]

The problem with all of what Karen is doing is that its based upon trying to support a forgone conclusion, specifically that there is a "good program", which is like a "polishable turd" (fossilized turds not withstanding..) and that 2N did so help and was not abusive.

TSW has broken everything down to the nth degree, more than once. We have pointed out her arguementative fallacies and the fact that she wants to win the arguement, not actually get to the crux of the problem - quackery, forced 'treatment' that is not, coersion, what adds up to brainwashing, and that all roads lead back to Erhard/Syannon/CEDU/Lifespring... more than once.

When specifics finally come out, we debunk them, and this has been done more than once.

All she does is come back around and try the same thing with a different nuance again and then try to find some kind of 'middle ground' that is nonexistant.

Are we doing good? Damn straight! She keeps trying, we keep shooting it down... shes throwing clay pigeons out and we're shooting them down with varying levels of civility, but no matter how frustrated or vitriolic we get, the truth is the truth, regardless of how it is presented.

Anyone willing to soak in the information, think, and reason will most likely have nothing to do with the industry. People who NEED a easy answer for their own sake will either just do it, or try to find a "less abusive" program, or try to find the magical "good program" even though it's utter nonsense to even suggest.

At any rate, we are helping a lot of people, and just adding to the depth of what we're trying to do and even more proof about what is really going on with both the programs and the apologists. Imagine what the archives of fornits will turn out to be to some anthropologists or historians in the future when these programs finally get exposed and our great great great grandchildren are alive?

We ain't gonna ditch it before the current generation has out-aged "programming" years unless the government finally steps in, but the next one could be spared if we manage to organize and spread awareness. So, I guess at least in a minor way, we are doing good.

[Nihilanthic]

Wishful thinking and attempting to win the ARGUEMENT by appealing to a middle ground, you mean?

Incorrect assumption about my strategy.  pm/im me if you want my "legal strategy"

]

No, what KAREN is doing, silly.

I should have directed it or contexualized, sorry.

[psy]

Keeping my parents out of my life is probably the one thing keeping my sane at this point. As fucked up as I can be, they are even more childish and petty than I am and surprise when I left at 18 things got that much easier. But I know exactly what you mean about the general society person you tell about these things, most common response i've heard, "they wouldn't let something like that happen in america."  :roll:

Yeah I love that one.  Yeah...  same shit 70 years ago in Germany.

[Anne Bonney]

If Karen is truly starting to see problems with Carlbrook, why doesn't she post that?  I can't stand it when people attack program parents right out of the gate but Karen is a completely different story.  She's been here on and off for a couple of years promoting programs and being just as insulting, if not more, than some of our more 'colorful' members here.  She seemed to be able to take the heat long enough to post pro-program shit, why can't she take it now and post her doubts or whatever it is she's starting to realize?

I've yelled at people for attacking some of the parents, but like I said...Karen is a completely different animal.

[Anonymous]

I see a poem starting to form:

Forget Karen
her ass
hit bricks.

Saggy tits
posting on
Fornits.

Drink one
drink [too?] many
send a kid away.

Smell of fish
just wont
go away.

 :rofl:  :rofl:

[Anonymous]

Without sifting through all the threads, I do recall she posted several times she was changing her mind about Carlbrook. Psy confirmed that.
She wrote to TSW, "I think from what I have learned, the Carlbrook program has a strong potential for abuse- emotionally, not physically."