Author Topic: Intimacy and dissociation  (Read 9778 times)

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Offline try another castle

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Intimacy and dissociation
« on: December 30, 2006, 06:33:50 AM »
Questions for survivors: Do any of you experience dissociation during moments of intimacy? (Sex, kissing, etc.)

Not like I got a whole lot of action before CEDU, but what little making out I did, the experience was quite different than after I got out. When I kissed people before, I felt "all there."

I slept with a woman less than six months after graduating, and I was really into her. When we first kissed, I was really turned on... up until the point when we kissed. Then it was like a piece of my brain broke off and decided to go somewhere else. Same thing when we had sex. It was as if there was a part of me that wasn't there. It was frustrating as hell, because I really wanted her, it's just that not all of my brain seemed to want to cooperate. I figured maybe it was an isolated incident.

But that pretty much happens with any kind of sexual thing with me. Dissociation. Part of me is gone. Even though I will try to make myself fully present. I think probably the only time it's minimal is when I'm blowing a guy, and that might be because I am the one in control. (However, it can and does happen then, too.) When it comes to kissing and sex... yeah... off in another world. Not by choice, either.

When I'm with trade, it's not that big of a deal. I mean, it's trade, after all. But in a relationship, it can really suck.

Besides, it WOULD be nice to get off with another person, once in a while.


Anyone here have similar problems?
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Offline try another castle

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Intimacy and dissociation
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2006, 07:49:20 AM »
Well, that is the good thing about trade. No exchange of names, and kick them out when you are done...

I enjoy sex, and I am able to have it, it's just that there is this piece of me which isn't there. Especially when it comes to my partner trying to please me. I'm more about getting them off, and that's what is the most satisfying for me. Stone butch. Unfortunately, that is not fair to them, because most of them would like the same thing as well. As a result, I've had to look at sex as a non-goal oriented process when it comes to my own pleasure. That's ok with me, I guess, but the dissociation is extremely troublesome.

I've had two relationships. I got into both of them for the wrong reasons. After the last one, I swore I wouldn't have one for a very long time. The guy drove me fucking nuts. Towards the end, I didn't even want him to touch me I was so annoyed with him. The sucky thing was that he was apparently totally in love with me.

I think that's something I can say with certainty: I've never been in love. I've been infatuated, but never in love. Not really looking to be, either.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

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Intimacy and dissociation
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2006, 10:38:31 AM »
I'm a fucking DOM now, and a good one at that.

I was not before I found fornits. Do the math.

This shit fucks us up by association! ARGH! Kinked me out to hell and back... at least I'm able to get people off really well.

I do know now that trust does not come as easily and I ALWAYS have in my mind just wanting to make sure no harm comes to them and they're able to be safe more than I ever did before, probably because I know how easy safety can go out the window, trust broken, hearts crushed and wills shattered. I'm insanely protective, but most like that in me, thankfully.

Where it gets genuinely weird, is when I see a baby, I always think "poor thing... I hope he has it better than I did, I hope his parents do their job, I hope he doesn't end up like me, I hope hes happy" and when I see kids in adolescence, or just starting it, I think to myself "oh goodie, they're just about to start going through hell... hope they make it out okay and run the gauntlet successfully".

I think more than anything now I've just been made jaded as hell, a little worse for the wear, but a lot more passionate. Oh so much more passionate. I just gotta make sure I train myself to be walked on a little less than I am now, as ironic as that is given how I can act in the bedroom  :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline try another castle

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Intimacy and dissociation
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2006, 10:55:25 AM »
Really? You're a dom? Interesting...

I can't credit CEDU for making me a pervert. Perversion is hard-wired, IMO. I started to realize I was into masochism before I went to that place, I just didn't know how to deal with it.

Although, for me, S&M was never about sex. I think I had sex during only a couple of scenes, and they were simply one small part of it, as opposed to it being one of those "spank me three times then fuck me" things. It's been a while since I played, though. It was one of those things that we took as far as we could go, and then had kind of the ultimate scene, and we realized "Well, anything after that would be pretty anticlimactic." So we stopped. Doesn't mean I'm not open to it again, but I'm very particular about my tops. The beauty about being a submissive is that you are in control at all times. You just pretend not to be. wheeee!

I can't say for sure whether I dissociated during scenes. Normally, you are so loopy on endorphines that it's hard to tell. I don't think I did, because it wasn't about sex. I think I did start to drift off those couple of moments when sex was involved, though. But I came right back to the present again after that part was through.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Intimacy and dissociation
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2006, 11:00:32 AM »
I like it because I get to insanely turn someone on on a psychological level not just a poke and rub level. Naturally any ensuing orgasm is uh... pretty intense and on the messy and furniture-soaking sort  :rofl:

One thing is everyone I've been with like that wanted to actually give up control to me as much as they could, but its hard to make them feel genuinely out of control but still enjoy it... but doable. They just want to FEEL that way I think. One told me she wanted me to act like I owned her.

But yeah, its an insanely intimate thing, and if it leaves someone warm and fuzzy for a week, why not?

However, I really think I was just able to understand this part of the mind a little more after my exposure to program bullshit... and its given me a bit of perception into how the mental part of a program can fuck with people. Using that kind of stuff to really break someone down when they're out of control, especially KIDS and TEENAGERS... is some pretty strong and dangerous and harmful stuff!

@TSW - because they fucking love it? I don't consider my job done unless I've ruined a folded up towel or a piece of furniture  :em:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline try another castle

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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2006, 11:15:37 AM »
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
You two are freaks. What happened to getting wasted and screwing? Why you gotta eff it up with whips, chains, and paddles?


* slinks off hiding his flogger*


Well, like I said, sex and S&M are entirely different animals for me. When it comes to sex, I'm actually pretty vanilla. Whereas I prefer my S&M to be devoid of sex completely.

Not much into the whips, chains and paddles. I'm more of a cane, needles and scalpel guy.

But seriously, for those perv and non-perv survivors out there, please let me know if you have gone through this dissociation thing or not.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2006, 11:27:18 AM »
I don't disassociate so much as find myself finally able to be really intimate with someone. I need to work on doing that in other ways.

And yeah, I don't do my kinks in a sexless way usually... though I did have a post-sex request for rough treatment and making someone feel controlled and smacked around I was happy to fulfill that I enjoyed too.

You seem to be more into the purely psychological 'scene play', something I'm not.

Also, needles and scalpels = oh so not my thing... got me there :o

I wonder why this shit messes with people so much. You would think we'd all realize how precious intimacy really is instead of have barriers or conditions for it...

Yeah, we need a freaking fornits support group already  :-?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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Intimacy and dissociation
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2006, 11:40:16 AM »
Quote from: ""try another castle""
Really? You're a dom? Interesting...

I can't credit CEDU for making me a pervert. Perversion is hard-wired, IMO. I started to realize I was into masochism before I went to that place, I just didn't know how to deal with it.

Although, for me, S&M was never about sex. I think I had sex during only a couple of scenes, and they were simply one small part of it, as opposed to it being one of those "spank me three times then fuck me" things. It's been a while since I played, though. It was one of those things that we took as far as we could go, and then had kind of the ultimate scene, and we realized "Well, anything after that would be pretty anticlimactic." So we stopped. Doesn't mean I'm not open to it again, but I'm very particular about my tops. The beauty about being a submissive is that you are in control at all times. You just pretend not to be. wheeee!

I can't say for sure whether I dissociated during scenes. Normally, you are so loopy on endorphines that it's hard to tell. I don't think I did, because it wasn't about sex. I think I did start to drift off those couple of moments when sex was involved, though. But I came right back to the present again after that part was through.


You know, with the BDSM thing, when the endorphins kick in it can kind of pull you away from yourself---you feel great, but it does pull you out of yourself if you get a really good scene.

That's a form of dissociation and somewhat may set you up. I'm not saying it's the cause.

I would suspect the cause is control. When you're giving head, you are in complete control of the actions--which is a little counter-intuitive, since you're a sub, but there it is.

You lost so much healthy control during your time at CEDU that you have to get back in touch with it.

Trusting your partner during sex enough for you to have a good time takes a certain degree of healthy boundaries.

Put another way, there's only so far your sense of boundaries (in the psychological jargon sense) can be effed up before it sabotages your ability to emotionally participate.

You're gun shy of voluntary intimacy because of the forced intimacy--such as intimate self-disclosure, lack of privacy--that was inflicted on you by CEDU.

To be able to be "all there" during sex, you're going to have to get your boundaries back on an instinctive level instead of just an intellectual level.

That's really hard to do without a good therapist.

I know Program survivors are also gun shy about therapists. Again, this goes to boundaries and control. You are used to lack of control about therapy in the exact same way as you are used to lack of control about intimacy.

Just taking the affirmative step of going to a good, ethical therapist and starting therapy---recognizing that you are in control of which therapist, finding one that meets your ethical criteria, finding one who respects you, and leaving if you decide that particular therapist isn't for you--that's good for you recovering a healthy sense of boundaries.

See, you will be accepting control of a therapeutic relationship. Control of that relationship is entirely within your own personal boundaries. Accepting that control and making that choice yourself faces your fear of forced, bad therapy and reinforces reclaiming your healthy boundaries.

That, in itself, is a step towards recovering your good boundaries enough to enjoy sexual intimacy.

Yes, you can control whether or not you see a therapist. But if you don't see one just because you're afraid, then you're not facing that fear. You sound like you're strong enough to face that one down. Exercising your choice of therapists and choosing to face that fear is a step forward all on its own.

You dissociate because your control is threatened, you don't know where your boundaries are, you now see control in black and white--which is why you can do scenes, too. In scenes, the control is black and white.

Julie
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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2006, 11:49:56 AM »
Quote
Also, needles and scalpels = oh so not my thing...

I'll make a point not to show you the pictures, then.  :P

Quote
You seem to be more into the purely psychological 'scene play', something I'm not.


I wouldn't say it's strictly psychological. It's very physical. I mean, it's all about physical sensation. Just not sexual. I know other people who feel the same way about it. My top felt that way, too. We had a connection that was strictly about S&M Daddy/boy. Now, we're simply very good friends. The thought of fucking him would seem incestuous. He's like my brother.


Julie, thanks for the feedback. I do indeed have a therapist. I've been seeing him for about ten years. I've always felt that it was a control issue, as you have stated. It's just that it feels so involuntary when it happens, I'm not sure how much he can help with the issue. I've been talking to him about it, though.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2006, 12:04:48 PM »
Think of the forced intimicy like a skilled dom that you didn't choose and didn't want and would like to get away from inflicting scenes on you unwillingly and pulling the strings right so that you have to respond to the scene with the endorphins that feel good.

You get the pleasure, but you know darned well you didn't choose this and didn't want it---except with the pleasure, there's that little voice that has to wonder if you did want it---except you really did say no and mean it---except at some point in that when it started feeling good did your response constitute consent from then on---except....

Round and round it goes. Below the surface of your mind even if not consciously.

Which the Program does with its coercive techniques for getting you all keyed up in a negative way and then forcing the endorphins out with some kind of release of tension technique, usually accompanied by some variant of love bombing (or approval bombing---"Oh, you're finally making progress! We're so proud of you!")

Screws you up in the same way as if you'd been imprisoned and raped or imprisoned and subjected to scenes by a skilled (but criminal) dom--for months or years!--you said no to.

Recovery for me as a rape survivor has included realizing that no really did mean no and I had a right for it to be respected, but that some human responses are push-button and someone who takes physical control over you and can push those buttons regardless of your having said no.  I still did say no, like other rape victims, and the bastard succeeding at pushing my buttons makes his crime worse. It doesn't make me complicit in my own victimization. Everybody has buttons that can be pushed whether we want them to be or not, and it screws everybody up when that happens, which is why imprisoning another human being and pushing their buttons is such an evil thing to do.

Being imprisoned and mentally raped for an extended period screwed up all your intimacy relations across the spectrum.

Rape victims do not become mostly-recovered survivors without some sort of treatment, either professional or through a damned skilled shade-tree counselor who is a professional in all but name and pay.

It wasn't your fault. You said no, you meant no, and you were forced anyway. That's rape, whether psychologically or sexually. It does the same damage, so it really doesn't matter a damn how they damaged you. You said no, they forced intimacy on you. That they succeeded in pushing some or all of your buttons does not make you complicit in your own violation in any way whatsoever.

You know that intellectually.

Not knowing it in your gut is why your sex life is still fucked up.

Get treatment.

It might be a great idea to seek out therapists who treat a lot of rape victims. Among that set of therapists, you'll probably find one fairly quickly who can generalize from treating rape victims to treating you, because, again, psychologically it's the same damn thing.

It would be just like treating a rape victim who had been imprisoned and raped repeatedly over however long you were at CEDU.

What does long-term psychological damage from rape is not the physically having a dick poked in a hole or two--that is, frankly, no different from getting punched out by a drunk bully in a bar. What does long term psychological damage from rape is the psychological forced intimacy.

Same damned thing.

It's a truism in the psychological community and the rape survivor community, for damned good reason, that rape victims don't recover without treatment---the trauma just gets shoved below the surface and festers.

That's you.

Julie
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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2006, 12:17:11 PM »
Interesting... I never viewed it in the same way as rape trauma before, but yeah, it is forced intimacy that makes you feel shitty about yourself sexually.

I'll definitely talk with my therapist about it and ask him about his experience treating rape survivors.

damn... I'm a mess.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2006, 12:17:16 PM »
Another BTW since this subject punches all of my hot buttons.

I've heard Program survivors say, "At least I wasn't raped."

Yeah, you were. Same forced intimacy, same damage, same kind of treatment necessary for recovery.

Yeah, you were.

And it wasn't your fault.

Saying you were a bad kid is like saying a woman was dressed slutty so "she was askin' for it."

It's just as much bullshit when your parents, the Program, or even you say it as it is when people say it about a rape victim.

You could walk down the strip at two in the morning stark naked and you still wouldn't deserve rape.

You could be the wildest teen, or the worst criminal, and you still wouldn't deserve mental rape.

Do criminals deserve incarceration if they're convicted in a fair trial? Sure. Society needs to do that to protect the rest of us.

Do criminals deserve to be subjected to the mental rape of the Program while incarcerated? Absolutely not. Criminals do get raped in prison, but they don't deserve it and any humane way society can figure out to reduce the risk and incidence of inmates raping each other we are morally obligated to do.

The Program is mental rape.

Nobody deserves that, no matter what you did or do.

So, "At least I wasn't raped"? Yeah, you were. And like all rape, it was completely and totally not your fault.

But nobody can no that in their gut without post-rape-type treatment of some kind from somebody good at what they do.

Pay 'em or don't pay 'em, diploma over the door or no, self-selected treatment is self-selected treatment.

Julie
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 12:19:42 PM »
That last was the generic "you" referring to Program survivors in general.

Julie
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2006, 12:46:24 PM »
I've never really felt sex to be all that intimate. I don't kiss during sex, if anything because of the heavy breathing makes it difficult. I find your question very interesting in a variety of ways, intriguing really.
I wouldn't say I dissocciate during sex, I go into a animalistic trance, become another person with ten times the energy and just go at it without any civilized pretense. So for me to slow down and make out words and talk about love and kiss, I'm way below that in my brain, the best I can do is grunt and smile. Intimacy bothers me a lot though,  I guess I am lucky I can dissociate sex from intimacy in that way. I don't know if this makes sense, but if someone wanted to sit down for an hour on a park bench and hold hands and talk sweet nothings into my ear, that would seriously bother me, I become physically uncomfortable, and my instinct which can become overwhelming is to attack, and flee. This has gotten me in trouble before. I was walking my dogs and a car pulled up along side me. I thought it was a person I used to know, who I didn't like who stopped to give me shit. So without thinking I started banging on the hood screaming get the fuck away from me or I'll hurt you, and it ended up just being some old couple who wanted to get a closer look at my dogs.  :-?
I still have a big problem with people coming up behind me. Hugging is forced and akward. I feel on a chemical level, on a purely instinctual level, I am much more comfortable when I am either by myself, or with one of a few trusted associates, and even then I still have my suspicians.
I have a problem with taking labels like a lot of people like to do. I can be dating someone for a year and I will still introduce them as "my friend". I purposely sabotage relationships to prove to whomever necessary that I am unreliable, unpredictable and ultimately will leave before things get stable.
But I can turn these things off to a certain extent. Thats why drugs and alochol are such great companions to sex.
But yeah, I dissoaciate all my thoughts and memories, have since I was a young kid so I don't think it was the programs so much, it just helped reinforce it a time when I really didn't need that.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2006, 12:55:09 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »