Moral clarity

[Oz girl]

so I guess I'm going to have to get used to those few steps forward meaning giant leaps back at times    I was so pleased they were settling in to some normal behaviour too

It does eventually get better, really it does.  Just be real with them.  Both of mine tell me that's the best thing I ever did for them.  I didn't talk just to hear myself talk, there weren't arbitrary rules in our house and I was pretty damn open and honest with them about my own life and what happened due to some of the choices I made.  

I wish you the best.  It will get better...someday.

Well kudos to you Anne. I know of few parents who are able to do this. I remember finding what my brother and I nicknamed the Giant Comedy Bong in my parents attic to have my poor mother snap Tobacco was the only thing ever smoked through that! She is mocked for that reaction to this day. There are few parents who can  actually step back and be calm about the issue of illegal drug use. I dont know why.
I know of many who suck it up when it comes to underage drinking, sex and other vices but panic about drug use and tell their kids that one puff of weed will eventually make them a homeless smack addict. I know in the case of my own parents they did not even believe this themselves. But they still trotted it out. I wonder why this is?

[exhausted]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Anne,

Like you i don't go on about what clothes they wear and stuff like that, I couldn't care less what they wear, I have talked with them about a certain few lads they are involved with who are really big trouble, just said I know I can't chose their friends, but it might be wise to look at the route their 'friends' are going down and make a decision based on that, as for sex, we've always been open in this house about it, it's not a taboo subject, my lads all know they can come to me if they need to get some info or condoms or whatever they need, they also know if they don't want to talk to me that I'll take them to a clinic where they can talk to someone else - drugs, I do express a lot of concern, not because I think everyone who smokes weed is going to go on to harder drugs (but it has to start somewhere) but because of a personal issue that started with weed and unfortunately it had a very bad affect on a person and eventually lead to their death, so i do talk alot about the dangers of anxiety attacks, paranoia, psychosis, it does scare me shitless to be honest so maybe I go on quite a bit about that.

you're right about not trying to live your life through your children, or wanting them to be what you want them to be, i think I've done that in the past, I wanted stepford children and was really upset I didn't get them, I have learnt that they are individuals who don't necessarily have the same values or wants or needs as me, so have pretty much 'let go' in the sense I am letting them be themselves without any aggro from me

i do however resent the fines, the calls from the police, the angry neighbours, I am being punished for their crimes, i don't commit crimes yet I'm the one held responsible, and as the parent I do have to pay those fines, I am also 100% held responsible for them going to school and staying there, every time they don't go I am one step closer to going to court, in the UK ppl are imprisoned for this, even if they've tried their absolute hardest to make the kid go and stay, it makes no difference, the parent faces the consequence.....you can see how stressful it is, facing fines and possible prison for something you didn't do and have tried your upmost to put right

But thank you for the light at the end of the tunnel....lets hope my boys are two of those who just come out the other side, the eldest hasn't, he's hell bent on being in and out of jail forever...I guess I have to accept it's his choice, but it is my choice that he don't ever come back to this house again.

[Anne Bonney]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Anne,

Like you i don't go on about what clothes they wear and stuff like that, I couldn't care less what they wear, I have talked with them about a certain few lads they are involved with who are really big trouble, just said I know I can't chose their friends, but it might be wise to look at the route their 'friends' are going down and make a decision based on that, as for sex, we've always been open in this house about it, it's not a taboo subject, my lads all know they can come to me if they need to get some info or condoms or whatever they need, they also know if they don't want to talk to me that I'll take them to a clinic where they can talk to someone else - drugs, I do express a lot of concern, not because I think everyone who smokes weed is going to go on to harder drugs (but it has to start somewhere) but because of a personal issue that started with weed and unfortunately it had a very bad affect on a person and eventually lead to their death, so i do talk alot about the dangers of anxiety attacks, paranoia, psychosis, it does scare me shitless to be honest so maybe I go on quite a bit about that.

That's really all you can do.  If I had lied to them about MJ and fed them the 'you'll die' crap, when they eventually did try it and found out I was full of shit it would blow my credibility with anything else that I told them.  That doesn't mean I just said it was perfectly fine with me and there were no problems.  The biggest one I find for teenagers using pot is that they get really, really lazy.  I was honest.  That included both the good and the bad.  I didn't spin it either way, I just gave them the facts.

you're right about not trying to live your life through your children, or wanting them to be what you want them to be, i think I've done that in the past, I wanted stepford children and was really upset I didn't get them, I have learnt that they are individuals who don't necessarily have the same values or wants or needs as me, so have pretty much 'let go' in the sense I am letting them be themselves without any aggro from me

That doesn't mean you can't still say the pain in the ass mom things that we all do.  :wink:  You can try and steer them in what you think is a more productive direction, but you just can't force it.

i do however resent the fines, the calls from the police, the angry neighbours, I am being punished for their crimes, i don't commit crimes yet I'm the one held responsible, and as the parent I do have to pay those fines, I am also 100% held responsible for them going to school and staying there, every time they don't go I am one step closer to going to court, in the UK ppl are imprisoned for this, even if they've tried their absolute hardest to make the kid go and stay, it makes no difference, the parent faces the consequence.....you can see how stressful it is, facing fines and possible prison for something you didn't do and have tried your upmost to put right

I don't blame you for resenting that.  It would piss me off too.  That's where some of the other suggestions come in.  Make them work for it.  It'll accomplish a few things.  You'll get help, they'll get consequences, if they do work for you it'll help their sense of accomplishment (even if it's not readily apparent to you or them), it'll make them feel more a part of the family (even if it's not readily apparent to you or them).  They need to understand that there are natural consequences for their actions.  Make sure you follow through with it and let whatever fallout that comes from other sources stand.  Don't bail them out of what they get themselves into.

But thank you for the light at the end of the tunnel....lets hope my boys are two of those who just come out the other side, the eldest hasn't, he's hell bent on being in and out of jail forever...I guess I have to accept it's his choice, but it is my choice that he don't ever come back to this house again.

I know, I'm sorry.  That's the toughest thing for parents sometimes.  They're going to make the choices they do and we can't change that.  We can try and help them, teach them and guide them but ultimately it's up to them.  I wish you all the luck in the world.  You're doing better than most and obviously infinitely better than the idiots who ship them off somewhere.

[Fornits Interpreter]

Anyone who wants to do the things we talk about to Fornits to children, anyone who thinks it might be a good idea to keep kids in isolation for weeks at a time or subject them to humiliation or brainwash them in LGATs, anyone who thinks that years in some warehouse being treated like shit and forced to say that they are shit will ultimately help them become better people, is seriously mentally diseased, probably beyond hope of recovery.

And any parent who can want this to be done to his kid, let alone pay for it, is seriously mentally diseased and should probably seek help for himself.

This isn't the kind of thing people can do to kids and get away with. This is the kind of thing people can fantasize about behind a homepage with a massive disclaimer, and if anyone finds out they're in the wrong profession (e.g. teaching, day care, school bus driver), they're getting their asses kicked anyway.

When I am dictator, anyone who even seriously considers doing this will be killed in such an unbelievably brutal and horrific fashion that the next asshole who comes around can see the head on the spike and be warned.

There's your dose of moral clarity for the evening. Enjoy.

Translates to: I really want to be a dictator so I can move out of my mom's basement.

[psy]

Anyone who wants to do the things we talk about to Fornits to children, anyone who thinks it might be a good idea to keep kids in isolation for weeks at a time or subject them to humiliation or brainwash them in LGATs, anyone who thinks that years in some warehouse being treated like shit and forced to say that they are shit will ultimately help them become better people, is seriously mentally diseased, probably beyond hope of recovery.

And any parent who can want this to be done to his kid, let alone pay for it, is seriously mentally diseased and should probably seek help for himself.

This isn't the kind of thing people can do to kids and get away with. This is the kind of thing people can fantasize about behind a homepage with a massive disclaimer, and if anyone finds out they're in the wrong profession (e.g. teaching, day care, school bus driver), they're getting their asses kicked anyway.

When I am dictator, anyone who even seriously considers doing this will be killed in such an unbelievably brutal and horrific fashion that the next asshole who comes around can see the head on the spike and be warned.

There's your dose of moral clarity for the evening. Enjoy.

Translates to: I really want to be a dictator so I can move out of my mom's basement.

[troll1] And it's not even that funny.

[Anonymous]

Everybody gather 'round, I've got another hot dose of clarity. This one goes out to all the program parents out there, and I guarantee you're not gonna like what I have to say.

It doesn't matter what the hell your kid was doing. Paying people to incarcerate and brainwash him is flat fucking wrong. You might have been desperate or deluded as all hell. It seriously doesn't matter. Your kids might have been chaotic as adolescents usually are, but you have committed a true evil, an evil that no one (except maybe your kids..) is going to punish you for and that you will probably never be able to make real restitution for. Understanding this is the only way to forgiveness and redemption.

"But his behaviors were.." Nope! Doesn't matter. If his behaviors were really that bad then that's why we have a criminal justice system, and the things done in American juvenile detention centers are much less damaging than the things done in places like WWASPS, CEDU, and Aspen. And even Saddam Hussein was given a trial, and is sentenced to die in a relatively merciful way. By paying people to abduct your children in the middle of the night to go to a place that is worse than jail, you have given your own children less accord than society gives adult, unrepentant murderers.

This isn't something I pulled out of my ass. This is a simple comparison to the actions of program parents versus that of societal norms.

[exhausted]

Although what you say may be true Milk - these are parents, parents are people who wil do anythingit takes to help their kids, protect themn, die for them, if they truly believe they are helping their child, they shouldn't be slated for that, how many people post how easy it is to manipulate a desperate parent into believing their child will die if they are not saved? If you as a parent are faced with that, and are convinced it is FACT, you'll send them where ever to save them, there are always two sides to every coin, you're being a bit harsh imo

[Anonymous]

Just because you don't know a thing is wrong, doesn't make it any less wrong. For example, Randall Hinton of WWASPS has locked his three-year-old daughter out of the house as punishment. To Randall this is perfectly right. To the rest of us this is fucking insane. Similar examples abound. In the 1800's, the Chinese would prevent their girls' feet from growing, resulting in a three-inch-long "golden lotus". It took quite some time before they realized how fucking sick that was and abolished the practice.

Ignorance might make reconciliation and forgiveness a lot easier, but it doesn't change the moral quality of the actions.

Assuming we're going to believe in morals at all, of course. If we're going to forsake the concept (and really, the concept of actions being 'bad' is annoying, isn't it?), then the programmies can do whatever they want to children, and I can do whatever I want to programmies. So much easier that way...

[psy]

Although what you say may be true Milk - these are parents, parents are people who wil do anythingit takes to help their kids, protect themn, die for them, if they truly believe they are helping their child, they shouldn't be slated for that, how many people post how easy it is to manipulate a desperate parent into believing their child will die if they are not saved? If you as a parent are faced with that, and are convinced it is FACT, you'll send them where ever to save them, there are always two sides to every coin, you're being a bit harsh imo

I aggree with you 100%

Parents are victims as well.  Milk.  Put yourself in a parent's position.  You're desperate, you have no idea what to do.  Some parent who you know comes to you and says "you should send your kid where mind is. she loves it and it's helping her change into a new person".  You contact an educational consultand he/she recommends.  The ed-con tells you "my god.. your son will be dead if he continues along his self destructive path.  I've seen a lot of kids like your son in my time and he needs help." etc etc etc... you know how the story goes.

But I can tell you that my parents did NOT know what was going on where I was.  They were stupid, they were naive, they were desperate, they were afraid, they were manipulated.... they were victims of a con.  But there was never any malice in them.  I cannot judge them based on things they did intending to help me.  Let's not lose sight of who is the enemy here.  Program is the enemy.  I thought my parents knew, i thought they didn't care, i thought they had abandoned me.  Program played on their fears, their prejudices, their hopes and dreams for me.  They promised a new me, and they almost delivered.  I was overwritten, with who they wanted me to be, a victimizer, he who had hurt his parents for fun and spite, an evil being, a slayer of the innocent.  I was a sinner in need of redempetion.  They could sell me salvation, and send my parents the bill.  They never underwent the abuse I did, but they have to live with the knowledge that they made it happen, that is the cross that they have to bear.  Living with the knowledge that i cried out for help, and they ignored my pleas.  They have to live with that knowledge for the rest of their lives.    Given a choice, I'm not sure i would rather be in their shoes.  Guilt....  That is parent's punishment.

[Anonymous]

We're talking around each other, really.

Of course they feel guilt for it. Guilt is the normal reaction to realizing you've done something horribly wrong. This is what separates the parents- their reaction to it. We have the real scumbags who say things like "they deserved that" (or flat willful-blindness denial that anything bad ever happened) and the otherwise innocent parents who say "oh Jesus what have I done". The latter is a lot easier to forgive (as Psy has done).

Consider a woman driving around looking at Christmas lights. Her gaze spends too long on one particular house and not enough at the road, some six-year-old runs out in front of her, and suddenly there's a bumping sound as she runs over a semi-solid object. It wasn't her fault per se- who'd think that a six-year-old would be running out in the street at night?!- and she most certainly didn't mean to do it, but that doesn't change the fact that her inattention cost a six-year-old his life. Odds are she'll lose a lot of sleep over it and tearfully attend the funeral, never thinking of herself the same way again, even if the child's family understands and forgives her. I don't intend to end up like her so when I'm driving, I keep my eyes open for kids running into the street.

Exhausted, when Aspen sent you that email saying to take your kids to the airport as soon as possible, they really weren't kidding. They honestly thought you'd do that, take your kids sight-unseen to people who you don't know. They wouldn't take that attitude if there weren't parents out there who do exactly this. A lot of them want to be conned, to get the easy fix which isn't, just so they can say to themselves that they have a final solution for their problem children.

And yes, the programmies are flat-out evil. They have constructed a new moral hierarchy for themselves, which holds themselves and their wishes inviolate and the rights of children as nothing, with plenty of bullshit to justify what they do. Taking them from their fantasy to the reality of the society everyone else lives in is what a lot of people here want to do (even if we don't put it in quite those terms). Consider HLA. Len Buccellato is still in fantasyland, still desperately trying to hold up his little kingdom, even among the massive layoffs, bouncing paychecks, and impending lawsuit. Why? Because when the illusion comes shattering down, he has to either completely deny reality to the point of schizophrenia, or come to terms with what he really is and what he's really been doing.

When the choice is "realize you've done something wrong" or "keep believing it was for the best", it's all too easy to choose the latter.

[Truth Searcher]

When the choice is "realize you've done something wrong" or "keep believing it was for the best", it's all too easy to choose the latter.

Milk - this is a sad profound truth.  What motivates parents to make placement?   Panic.  Frustration.  More panic.  The desire to keep them from suicide.  

But, I think it it erroneous to believe that most parents "want to be conned".  Believe me when I tell you that it was an "easy fix".  

I believe there are really lousy - filthy rich parents out there who just don't want to deal with teenage angst.  And they may ship their kids off so that they don't have to deal with them.

But, there are others who desperately love their children.  Who have tried every community resource, mental health resource, and program available to us.  Our children weren't experimenting with a little pot, or occasional weekend drugs.  We weren't worried about casual safe sex.  Or mouthy disrespect ... or lousy grades.  Some of us were truly afraid for the very lives of our children.  

And in terms of the juvenile court system helping our kids ... that is just plain laughable.  The jurisprudence system (even the juvenile system) is punitive not rehabilitative.  Most kids who travel through the juvenile court systems end up as adults lost in a prison system that don't give a flying fart about their lives.  The penal system doesn't care to help a child figure out why they use drugs or cut themselves or attempt suicide or run away ... they just want to incarcerate them for doing so.   It puts a band-aid on a cancer.

[try another castle]

But I can tell you that my parents did NOT know what was going on where I was. They were stupid, they were naive, they were desperate, they were afraid, they were manipulated.... they were victims of a con. But there was never any malice in them. I cannot judge them based on things they did intending to help me.

My sentiments exactly. The worst I can accuse my parents of was being ignorant and freaked out.


There was a guy in my peer group who had a dad that could definitely fit into the "uncaring rich asshole parent" category. (Poor bastard, he really had it rough.) But for most of us, our parents were just suckered and didn't know any better.

American juvenile detention centers are much less damaging than the things done in places like WWASPS, CEDU, and Aspen.

You are obviously unfamiliar with the California Youth Authority. (CYA) They don't call it "cover your ass" for nothing. Abuse is abuse.

[psy]

This was the ending to my life's story (a writing assignment at Benchmark)

Somehow I think my parents knew that Benchmark was not really that much of a school but that is in the past and I don't know if I really care anymore.  I'm here and I know that I need this place.  I'm not entirely sure if for any ?one? reason alone but I do now that the way I have been living my life hasn't been working and I need to be shown a better way.

I have been typing up my journals from benchmark, which I have not read since written.  No emphasis added.  The underlines were there in the original.

Now can anybody say "mind fuck"!

This was written just after they first broke me.

I truly believed that shit when i wrote it....  ::bangin::  :silly:  ::puke::

[Anonymous]

Don't be too hard on yourself, Psy; think of it as having been under the influence of a bad trip....

[Nihilanthic]

I still don't understand how any parent justifies the lynchpin of a program:

Not believing your kid, if not having zero contact outright.

I just don't get it.