Author Topic: Jesus Camp  (Read 10157 times)

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Offline Oz girl

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2006, 08:16:54 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
For the last three years, Fischer has rented a campground in Devils Lake from the Assemblies of God, one of the largest national churches in the Pentecostal movement. But Fischer said she was asked not to return after vandals broke windows and caused $1,500 in damage at the campground in October.


Because this film has not  come out here i am yet to see it. I am certainly curious. But vandalising the woman's property seems inexcusable. Her brand of christianity looks pretty nutty and i am intrigued as to why a parent would think it is good and healthy way for a child to worship. But to desecrate what these people think is holy is just barbaric. Nazi germany started with some synagogues being vandalised. The good people of Iraq dont seem any too happy with their mosques being bombed by the US either. This kind of thing should have no place in a democratic country with the right to practice freedom of religion. it also plays right into the hands of those who claim it is a holy war because Christians are under seige
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Offline mbnh31782

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2006, 10:08:02 PM »
qreyhdoigericnoeinqo[ernvcunernqoernfnuqednucqoerngqeornonervqenrgonuergoqnervonqogqneg erfgeinvoqenrgoqerngoernvongoeqrngoerg

look.. i'm speaking in tongues LOL~!
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Offline AtomicAnt

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2006, 09:29:58 AM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Quote from: ""Guest""
For the last three years, Fischer has rented a campground in Devils Lake from the Assemblies of God, one of the largest national churches in the Pentecostal movement. But Fischer said she was asked not to return after vandals broke windows and caused $1,500 in damage at the campground in October.

Because this film has not  come out here i am yet to see it. I am certainly curious. But vandalising the woman's property seems inexcusable. Her brand of christianity looks pretty nutty and i am intrigued as to why a parent would think it is good and healthy way for a child to worship. But to desecrate what these people think is holy is just barbaric. Nazi germany started with some synagogues being vandalised. The good people of Iraq dont seem any too happy with their mosques being bombed by the US either. This kind of thing should have no place in a democratic country with the right to practice freedom of religion. it also plays right into the hands of those who claim it is a holy war because Christians are under seige


We should never become so tolerant that we tolerate intolerance.

This was not a religious camp, it was a terrorist training camp. It was no different than those Muslim schools in Pakistan you hear about on the news (If forget what they are called) except Christian based instead of Muslim based. We as a society should not allow children to be brainwashed in manifest falsehood and hate.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2006, 09:33:56 AM »
BTW, On the Daily Show, John Stewart showed the clip of Haggard at Jesus Camp. It was hilarious.
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Offline Anonymous

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2006, 09:51:58 AM »
Quote from: ""mbnh31782""
qreyhdoigericnoeinqo[ernvcunernqoernfnuqednucqoerngqeornonervqenrgonuergoqnervonqogqneg erfgeinvoqenrgoqerngoernvongoeqrngoerg

look.. i'm speaking in tongues LOL~!


 :rofl:
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Offline Anonymous

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2006, 10:47:58 AM »
Quote

This was not a religious camp, it was a terrorist training camp. It was no different than those Muslim schools in Pakistan you hear about on the news (If forget what they are called) except Christian based instead of Muslim based. We as a society should not allow children to be brainwashed in manifest falsehood and hate.


How many christians have you seen walking into hotels and blowing themselves up lately? How about attacking US embassies, murdering and beheading civilians, seen many christians doing that lately?

Yeah there's a differnece between Muslim terrorists, and christian kids with overzelous parents, and if you can't see that I'm not sure what to say.
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Offline Anonymous

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2006, 10:50:54 AM »
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We should never become so tolerant that we tolerate intolerance.


Did people at Jesus Camp committ a crime? Or do we just label any person "terrorist" now who doesn't conform to mainstream standards?

Jesus Camp is the victim here, of intolerance from mainstream society, I know that irks people to hear it, but it's what happened.

Are groups of christians who just viewed "brokeback mountain" going and vandalizing movie theaters?

I am not even christian but I can see the blatant hypocrisy and I think it's hilarious.
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Offline Anonymous

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2006, 12:28:51 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Did people at Jesus Camp committ a crime? Or do we just label any person "terrorist" now who doesn't conform to mainstream standards?


Technically no, those parents did not break any laws, since minor children are effectively the "property" of their parents. So the parents are free to brainwash those kids any way they see fit. There is no law against dressing young children in military fatigues, training them to live outside established society, and teaching them that they are the Lord's chosen few and that all people who are not "with them" are "against them" and are thus the enemies of God and they must be punished.

No legal problems with any of that. Ethical problems? In the eye of the beholder.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2006, 12:44:35 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote

We should never become so tolerant that we tolerate intolerance.

Did people at Jesus Camp committ a crime? Or do we just label any person "terrorist" now who doesn't conform to mainstream standards?

Jesus Camp is the victim here, of intolerance from mainstream society, I know that irks people to hear it, but it's what happened.

Are groups of christians who just viewed "brokeback mountain" going and vandalizing movie theaters?

I am not even christian but I can see the blatant hypocrisy and I think it's hilarious.


I don't think it is funny or hilarious. I think this is a serious issue. I do think your point has some merit that bears discussing.

Yes it is a difficult issue, but lines must be drawn. We live in a country that promotes freedom of religion and religious practice. At the same time we would never allow human sacrifice, would we? That may seem like an extreme example, but many States do not allow animal sacrifice, either. That means Santori is not permitted a basic tenet of its rituals.

Recently, a court sentenced a man to prison for circumsizing his daughter. Mutilating a child is not permitted, even though his actions could have been construed as religious or cultural.

Likewise, we don't allow Muslim men to force women to wear burkas in our country.

Lines must be drawn. We can argue where to draw them, but the statement is not hypocritical. I will repeat it; we should not tolerate intolerance.

Now I will go into controversial territory. I read an article about athiesm in Wired Magazine (November 2006). Richard Dawkins makes the statement:

"How much do we regard children as being the property of their parents?" Dawkins asks. "It's one thing to say people should be free to to believe whatever they like, but should they be free to impose their beliefs on their children? Is there something to be said for society stepping in? What about bringing up children to believe manifest falsehoods?"

From my perspective, Dawkins makes a valid point. We generally do not allow our public schools to teach things to kids we know are simply not true (at least in theory, we don't). But we do allow parents and churches to teach things that have no rational, historic or scientific basis.

After reading here on Fornit's, it is reasonable to see that parents could (can and probably have) sent kids to religious programs to force the child to adopt Christianity. I think this is very, very wrong and parents have no right to do this.

Jesus Camp is dangerous because it promotes an intolerant view and these are impressionable children. They will grow up with a value system that teaches them to attempt to force everyone else to adhere to their rules; based on their values. They are, in other words, teaching kids to be intolerant. My opinion is that in a free society we must have our limits and not tolerate intolerance, or the teaching of intolerance.

As for Christian terrorists blowing things up. I guess you missed Timothy McVeigh. Read up on the case and you will see what really motivated this young man.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2006, 03:56:51 PM »
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Jesus Camp is dangerous because it promotes an intolerant view and these are impressionable children. They will grow up with a value system that teaches them to attempt to force everyone else to adhere to their rules; based on their values. They are, in other words, teaching kids to be intolerant. My opinion is that in a free society we must have our limits and not tolerate intolerance, or the teaching of intolerance.
.


This is quite possibly right. But vandalising their property I am sure is not going to change the views of the people who run such a place. If anything it just serves to reinforce the logic of this idea that christians are under seige, and should be fighting a holy war of some kind. It seems more likley to produce a bunch of budding tim mcveighs. By all means legally ban forcing kids into mock siesures and making them hysterical and teary but why be lowered to some kind of mob mentality?
As to the militant athiest quoted, if it is ok to let kids believe in santa and the easter bunny, then why not Jesus? or some other messiah?  For a lot of perfectly normal people relgion brings comfort and provides a moral compass. Or is just a good way of meeting other likeminded people. Why ban it?
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Offline BuzzKill

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2006, 04:52:23 PM »
Well, weather it should be banned or not - it will be.  

As for the indoctrinating of the children - of corse I disagree with this POV. I would argue that it is a parents responsibility to teach their children about God. I don't know that I would go so far as this "Jesus Camp" but they should be given instruction and knowledge appropriate for their age.

As for this making an army of Tim McVeigh's (not that I'm aware of any Christian motivation his part)  I don't think so. Most of them go on to live lives that suit them; Sometimes in service to God, trying always to live a Christian life; but quit often it has little or nothing to do with the Christian instruction they received as children. Some of the prodigals will in time return to the faith, but many others do not. As I have often tried to point out, God will not force Himself upon anyone.

I haven't seen this Jesus camp film; so I don't know what I would think about it. I will say there is much going on in the AofG churches that worry and distress me - and some things I am very much opposed to. I fear they are being over run with a strong delusion. They stray to far from the Word of God, in their practices and preaching.

That being said, I would guess that what is meant by warriors for Christ has more to do with the Sword of the Sprit (the Living Word of God) than with bombs and guns and so on. If children can be taught from an early age, that there is power and truth found in God's Word, worth living their lives in trust and obedience to, there would be a lot less grief and pain and strife in their lives. So says this Christian - whose advice and instruction has always been ignored. ;)
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Offline AtomicAnt

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2006, 06:25:14 PM »
Quote
would argue that it is a parents responsibility to teach their children about God.


Even if the lesson is that gods do not exist?

Just as people wish to protect their children from harmful media (violence and sex), there are those of us who feel that the religious believer's right to spread the word, ends where our children's eyes and ears begin. We don't want our children's impressionable minds to be twisted by myth and superstition.

In reality, this is impossible, of course. It is only when you are a non-believer that you see how our culture, which is a Christian culture,  forces* it upon you at every turn. The only defence is to educate our children. Ultimately, they will decide for themselves.

I don't see how Dawkins is a 'militant.' Certainly no more so than those right wing fundies that voted to alter State Constitutions to ban gay marriage or boycott stores that say Happy Holidays to be inclusive instead of the Christian Merry Christmas. They appear to wish to impose their religious values on the larger society. Dawkins states an adult can believe anything they want, just don't teach junk science to the kids.

But we digress. The point still remains that Jesus Camp goes beyond normal religious freedom by teaching kids to be intolerant. They may not state 'guns and bombs' but they do state 'give your lives for Jesus' and 'be willing to die for Jesus'. Military fatigues are the preferred dress. I suggest you view the video clips. I think you would be as disturbed as the rest of us. Remember the flap in the press when it was reported that Saudi Arabian schoolbooks literally taught kids to 'hate the infidel?' Same thing.

I also want to revisit the whole thing that Christians don't go around hurting people like terrorists. Actually they do. I have been assaulted, beaten, had my property damaged or stolen, been verbally abused, and excluded from activities in the community and at school and even people's homes once they discovered I was a 'non-believer.' Mind, I never advertised my atheism. In fact, as a kid, if you straight out asked me, most of the time I would lie and say, "Of course I believe in God." just to avoid the inevitable fallout. These things happened to me as a child.

I understand that this behavior is not in keeping with mainstream Christian teaching; just as I understand that terrorism is not in keeping with mainstream Muslim thinking.

Timothy McVeigh was linked to a right-wing, racist group, that felt God was on their side.

* I don't mean literally. I mean through saturation of the culture.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2006, 06:36:58 PM »
Ozgirl,
I never intended to advocate that vandalism, etc was okay.

I sincerely support the idea that legal, civilized measures should be employed to combat this kind of hate group. My preferred method is, education and publicity. Jesus Camp has been on more than a few news and talk shows in this country and has drawn wide-spread criticism from many sources, both liberal and conservative.
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Offline Anonymous

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2006, 06:48:37 PM »
Crazy parents who put there kids through weird shit come in all flavors and varieties.

Vegans/Vegetarianism
Anti-Vaccinationers
Christian Scientists
Amish
Polymorous
Gays
AA/NA fundies
Pagans
Role Players
Fundie Islamic
Native Americans
Swingers
Snake Handlers

etcetera

etcetera

etcetera

............
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Offline Anonymous

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Jesus Camp
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2006, 06:49:42 PM »
Quote
Role Players


:lol:

I'd love to see the details of that one.
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