Jesus Camp

[AtomicAnt]

As to the militant athiest quoted, if it is ok to let kids believe in santa and the easter bunny, then why not Jesus? or some other messiah? For a lot of perfectly normal people relgion brings comfort and provides a moral compass. Or is just a good way of meeting other likeminded people. Why ban it?

I won't defend Richard Dawkins. He is a world reknown scientist that has written many books. He can defend himself quite nicely.

I posted the quote because we are in a forum for the Troubled Teen Industry speaking about Jesus Camp. I felt Dawkins' questions were worth considering.

I sort of took the fact that a Jesus Camp thread exists as an implicit statement that Jesus Camp and programs are fundamentally related in some way. The lines are blurred. Both have been referred to as brainwashing children.  So, should society step in to prevent brainwashing? Who gets to make the call? An athiest? Buzzkill? You? Me?

Could any religious indoctrination of children be considered brainwashing? I might think so, but Buzkill and you would object. So what lines get drawn? Who draws them? How are they enforced?

[BuzzKill]

/// I suggest you view the video clips. I think you would be as disturbed as the rest of us. ///

I'm not able to view it; but quit possibly you are right. If they are dressing little kids in military fatigues I would be alarmed, for sure. This would be something new to me.

But, not having seen it - I think maybe I would understand the message very differently from you.

See - you feel you are bombarded by an unwelcome saturation of Christian culture. You are concerned your children will be negatively effected and you resent this. You want to train them up in the way they should grow -  away from what you believe is superstition and myth. You feel you can only escape this by educating them in your own home - and I suppose avoiding the malls at Christmas time

Christian parents feel exactly the same way about the god less, hedonistic culture, that floods society with a constant barrage of hate and violence and vulgarity; and like you, the Christian parent commonly believes the only way to avoid it is to educate at home. Its a wonder anyone is still left in public schools. . .

Just as you arm your offspring with the tools you feel they need to deflect this Christian influence; Christian parents feel the need to arm their offspring with a firm foundation in Christian thinking and belief - so as not to be overwhelmed by the anti-Christian thought so flooding our culture.

I suspect this is largely what Jesus camp is about - but - again - I have not seen it, and I don't actually know - and I am often alarmed at what takes place in "Christian" groups. For example, I am currently in a debate with some Christian friends about this so called "Toronto Blessing". I have serious reservations about it. I find it deeply disturbing and there are aspects of it I am quite certain have nothing to do with God. So - it is possible I would be alarmed with this Jesus camp.  

That being said, I can also understand how and why Christian parents might look for ways to strengthen the faith of their children.

I am wondering Atomic Ant - how freaked out would you be if your son or daughter came home an announced they had been Born Again? How tolerant would you be? What if they were dating some straight laced primitive Baptist?  I'm sorry - but its funny to think about. Did you read Opus this morning? The Volvo? (I love Opus, BTW)

But more seriously - I wonder, are you able to arm your offspring against the Christanity all around them, with out being hostile to Christians? Or, at least seeming so? I assume you don't intend to come across as hostile/hatefull  towards anyone. . .

Do you not think Christian parents might also be struggling to express oposition to what they view as evil and destructive in the popular culture, with out sounding hatefull?

When it comes to tolerance - sometimes the most tolerant can be the most dangerously intolerant.

The Angry Man

 The other day I chanced to meet

An angry man upon the street -

A man of wrath, a man of war,

A man who truculently bore

Over his shoulder, like a lance,

A banner labeled ?Tolerance.?

 And when I asked him why he strode

Thus scowling down the human road,

Scowling, he answered, ?I am he

who champions total Liberty -

Intolerance being, Ma?am, a state

No tolerant man, can tolerate.

 When I meet rogues,? he cried,

?Who choose, to cherish oppositional views,

Lady, like this, and in this manner,

I lay about me with my banner -

Till they cry Mercy, ma?am.?

 His blows Rained proudly on prospective foes.

Fearful, I turned and left him there,

Still muttering, as he thrashed the air,

 ?Let the Intolerant beware!?

 Phyllis Mc Ginely

[Anonymous]

I guess maybe it is worth considering weather Jesus Camp is in fact brain washing - as we understand it to be practiced in the troubled teen industry. Not having seen the film - or even the trailer - I can't say.
How do you think it actually compares?

As to parental instruction - this is not brainwashing. Not in most families anyway.

[Anonymous]

I think the main diference is the Jesus camp type religious camps don't invovle the "tear down" process of "brainwashing" like programs do. A common theme of programs is for the youth to sit around in a circle and criticize each other, or have a facilitator in a large group tear them down in front of everyone psychologically, and then try to rebuild them with better "tools" to take on the issues they were dealing wtih... or so goes the theory. The type of brainwashing the kids at jesus camp seem to get is similar in the same group induced euphoria sessions, but in their case it is based on the comforting and radical thought that there is an all powerful force watching over them, inhabiting them and it can be a powerful feeling. I think it might be unfortunate when the kids grow up and find out the pastor was a hypocrite, and maybe they will not be christians but I don't know if they feel they, their inner self, was attacked by their so called loved ones in order to destroy them, and try to invent a new person.

[Oz girl]

I sort of took the fact that a Jesus Camp thread exists as an implicit statement that Jesus Camp and programs are fundamentally related in some way. The lines are blurred. Both have been referred to as brainwashing children.  ?

Could any religious indoctrination of children be considered brainwashing?
quote]

Oh how i love these debates! I would say no. Afterall I survived 12 long yrs of catholic school and now dont believe in anything much. I think it is a matter of moderation. If kids are actually taught to approach faith and theology in an intellectual manner and study real philosophers and theologans as well as perfoming the wacky rituals of whichever faith they belong to, then it can be quite educational. if they are just made to memorise some random rules & quotes from a bible or any other "holy book", i am still not sure if it is brainwashing as much as just getting a shitty dumbded down education.

However I would say that with Jesus camp you are right, the lines are pretty blurry as those kids were at times in considerable distress and were being whipped into a frenzy. The ideas they seemed to be teaching those kids also did seem pretty crazy and intolerant if the trailer was anything to go by. it is probably never a good idea to get kids willing to lay down their lives for any cuase!

 But  throwing a brick through the window of their private property does not convince anyone of the insanity of what they are doing. If anything it just reinforces the ridiculous persecution complex that fundamentalists everywhere have. There are better ways of fighting zealotry than with violence and threats. You cant say that people should have freedom of religion as long as their faith is not a crappy one. They either do or they dont.
On a side line note, the one and only thing that makes me slightly more sympathetic to the headslapping religious zealots of Jesus Camp than programmes and wilderness death camps, it at least they seem to like the kids they are in charge of!

[Anonymous]

Christian parents feel exactly the same way about the god less, hedonistic culture, that floods society with a constant barrage of hate and violence and vulgarity; and like you, the Christian parent commonly believes the only way to avoid it is to educate at home. Its a wonder anyone is still left in public schools. . .

But what happens to these kids when they discover or at least hear rumours of the contemporary earthly world? When sex rears its ugly head? or something makes them question what they have been brought up with? What happens when someone tells them about drugs or alcohol or god forbid halloween? They will be unarmed with any kind of common sense because they have been raised with a just say no-to everything- mentality. The real world will either terrify them or be so intoxicating that they will do everything that their overzealous familieswant to protect them from. That seems crazy. I wouldnt say that kids raised in such an insular way have been abused. But it sure seems like a pretty poorly thought out parenting strategy.
Also why would anyone want to have have a belief system so weak and shaky that exposing kids to any ideas or temptations outside of this is such a threat?
Ant i am a bit of a dick as i skimmed over one of your earlier posts. Ignore my reiteration on the vandalism point!

[Oz girl]

last post was mine -could not log in

[Anonymous]

The most traumatizing event for a child in jesus camp might very well be for the kids who start to realize they are gay. Obviously this wouldn't have the same kind of self-hatred effect on someone who isn't gay. But for kids who grow up in very reilgious homes and end up being gay, it can be really tough. A lot committ suicide.

[Anonymous]

I think what was most upsetting about this Jesue Camp video was the young ages of these children.
Seeing them crying, and begging for forgivesness so earnestly just made was wonder:  now what sort of dreadful "sins" have these young kids comitted that requires such intense feelings?

Then this woman, whipping these kids into such a frizzy over Harry Potter.  Harry Potter is a make-believe, fantasy story that kids read in a BOOK, and go to see in a MOVIE--not some "devil worhip event" that is going to take over the world...or destroy these little kids' life.

These kids were weeping, as if someone dear to them had died.
There must be a better way to teach religion to children.

[Anonymous]

http://caica.org/JESUS%20CAMP%20MAIN.htm

video and articles

[Anonymous]

There must be a better way to teach religion to children.

This isn't about teaching religion to children -- it's about brainwashing future soldiers for the next crusade. The Christian Army needs it's jihadists too, dontcha know...

[Deborah]

At the referenced link above, watch East Side Phil's Video Blog 10: Jesus Camp is Child Abuse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=707NU1zf ... ed&search=

I personally feel its right on order with programs, the manipulation of children's thoughts and feelings with fear and shame.

[Anonymous]

Karen, are you jacking the thread to be an apologetic when thats really beside the point of JESUS CAMP IS BRAINWASHING?

Tch...

[Anonymous]

I think what was most upsetting about this Jesue Camp video was the young ages of these children.
Seeing them crying, and begging for forgivesness so earnestly just made was wonder:  now what sort of dreadful "sins" have these young kids comitted that requires such intense feelings?

Then this woman, whipping these kids into such a frizzy over Harry Potter.  Harry Potter is a make-believe, fantasy story that kids read in a BOOK, and go to see in a MOVIE--not some "devil worhip event" that is going to take over the world...or destroy these little kids' life.

These kids were weeping, as if someone dear to them had died.
There must be a better way to teach religion to children.

That besmirks me of how kids act in seminars if they "internalize" it  :-?

[Anonymous]

Karen, are you jacking the thread to be an apologetic when thats really beside the point of JESUS CAMP IS BRAINWASHING?

Tch...

No - I am not.
Lets talk about it some. How is it brain washing in the same sense that we understand the Programs are brain washing? How are they similar or dis-similar?I am at a disadvantage not having seen the film, but judging from what I read here,  I would oppose the kind of frantic hyper-emotionalism being described. But this still doesn't make it brain washing. Does it cross the line into brain washing? If so - how?

I'm concerned that this woman is talking about creating a Christian version of the Jihadist. That is most alarming. But I wonder if it wasn't just a very poor choice of words, that isn't representing what she actually means? There is some concern that Christian children are not being given the tools they need - the firm foundation required - to understand their faith and put it into practice in their lives. I wonder if she means she wants to help Christian children believe and live their faith as ardently as so many Muslems do - minus the strapping on of bombs to blow up the infidel.

I question the teaching about being willing to die for Christ, meaning what you seem to think it means. Keeping in mind any Christian should be wiling to do so - and indeed many have; and still are in much of the world - but as Martyrs - not terrorist. Its a very different kind of thing. But - while this is what I would Guess she means - I do not know - and maybe she is some kind of loon. I would be concerned about the age of her "campers". I see no need to tell young children they must be willing to die for anything. This is like feeding tuff meat to babes who need warm milk.