Author Topic: Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah  (Read 16590 times)

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Offline Deborah

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2007, 11:35:16 PM »
You exceeded your 2" rule. Quit your bitchin.
I average 2.7 posts a day. Your average is 5.23 per day since March and a bazillion of your posts were deleted. Some quiet lengthy as I recall. At that rate, in six years you'll have 6500 more posts than I had in the same amount of time.
Prove a point? Some news articles disappear into archives and one must pay to retrieve them. I thought this one had some useful info about OB that I'd never read before. It was worth saving, imo.
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Offline Anonymous

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2007, 11:45:30 PM »
Insightful, informative article.  Thanks, Deborah.
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Offline Rachael

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2007, 11:48:51 PM »
I read the whole thing as soon as it was posted, I for one am quite glad the whole article was posted as I hate when I can't retrieve articles from archives later.

Outward Bound is one of the ones that bothers me the most at the minute, as my mother tried her best to send my sister through something like that instead of an RTC.


Rachael
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Justice, Justice shall you pursue.

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Offline Anonymous

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2007, 11:51:16 PM »
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
Let us sing a song. A song about freedom from wall o text!

We don't want no wall o text!
We don't need no wall o text!
Burn the wall o text and give the poster of it aids!
blah blah blah blah.. etc.

Fornits will soon be put on the 2 inch rule. If you need more than 2 inches of text to prove your point it isn't being read by myself.


Unlike your butt buddy Milk, we don't like to be limited to 2 inches.
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Offline nimdA

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2007, 03:39:22 AM »
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
Let us sing a song. A song about freedom from wall o text!

We don't want no wall o text!
We don't need no wall o text!
Burn the wall o text and give the poster of it aids!
blah blah blah blah.. etc.

Fornits will soon be put on the 2 inch rule. If you need more than 2 inches of text to prove your point it isn't being read by myself.


Its about around the highlighted section you should have noticed that I was messing around with you.

Having a bit of stress are you?

Come on debs.. relax some... and later I'll tell you one of those wierd wilderness stories you told me to rant and rave about.
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Offline nimdA

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2007, 03:41:22 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
Let us sing a song. A song about freedom from wall o text!

We don't want no wall o text!
We don't need no wall o text!
Burn the wall o text and give the poster of it aids!
blah blah blah blah.. etc.

Fornits will soon be put on the 2 inch rule. If you need more than 2 inches of text to prove your point it isn't being read by myself.

Unlike your butt buddy Milk, we don't like to be limited to 2 inches.


Now now lets not brag we all know its rarely true.
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Offline Anonymous

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2007, 03:31:46 AM »
T.S. Waygookin, your previous post stated your opinion about this young man's death, "hence my lack of pity."  Therefore, do you really think anyone cares if you do or do not read a post that is longer than 2 inches in length? NO!
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Offline Anonymous

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2007, 12:33:55 AM »
DECEPTIVE MARKETING?

The 28-Day Standard Field Course is the oldest and most popular course BOSS offers. It has been designed over the last 37 years to test a student ? physically, mentally and emotionally ? and to provide him or her with an extended traditional living experience.

Was there a transistion from an "extended traditional living experience" to a "survival" course? And what's traditional about hiking in the desert in 100* temps without water. Any traditional (native) person would call you a stupid white person.  The transition is to experiencing the environment as is without modern tools/gadgets as is requested/desired by those signing up for the course that clearly describes this.

IMPACT-A fast-moving, minimal-equipment hike through the desert. No food and water except what you find. No blankets or ponchos until Group Ex.

It was his second day, so he must have still been on Impact. No food/water the first two days. Might they save that for after the person is acclimated? After they have built up to eating less? When it's not 100+ degees? And WHERE do they "find" water except at the drops?
Having done the 2 week version of the course, you spend almost 2-days before you go out getting acclimated and learning some basic skills.  They also give you specific information on how many calories to expect to consume through every phase of the course.  Prior to arriving they send a recommended preparation plan which includes cutting back on the food you consume.  The instructors have a route that has known water sources along the way.  Keep in mind that they hiked 4-miles in 10-hours -- they weren't overly exerting.  When I did the course, it was very dry as well and when a normally good water source was found dry, there was a planned back up water drop, just in case of this situation.

Found this in the Risk section:
There's also an added element of risk to BOSS Field Courses ? Impact. As far as we know, there is no other program which will purposely put you in a position where you must hike under adverse conditions (hot, bright days or cold, dark nights) with little or no food and water. And this is done during the first few days of the course ? when we really don't know that much about you or your physical fitness.  On the contrary, prior to arriving a full physical is required and after arriving, a brief fitness test is given to determine how you are re-acting to the altitude and heat.


Let's take a look at the realities of Impact:
Now, with little more than a 1.5 mile test run, we gear up and head off for a desert hike. No food, no water except that which we come across. Your clothing is limited to what's on your body ? no blanket, no poncho, nothing really substantial. The goal is to live in the moment with a group of strangers, exploring the wilderness and what it has to offer.
Of course, some responses to Impact are expected. Nausea, light-headedness, aches, pains, hunger, cramps, thirst, etc. are all common responses to not having food or water while hiking. But these symptoms can be reduced through proper preparation before the course and managed with proper feedback during the course. Again, the most significant risk and the greatest unknown on the trail is you. Tell us about yourself and how you're doing on a course, and a lot of the risks of Impact can be eliminated.

With feedback lots of the risks can be eliminated? So, why was he denied water? Who is reponsible for dx'ing dehydration/ heat exhaustion? Is there a sure-fire field test?

No, there is not a 'sure-fire' field test.  Every instructor is Wilderness First Responder certified and also is taught signs and symptoms to watch for based on many years of experience.  Instructors spend their first year and sometimes more as an apprentice learning these things.  Everyone in a course such as this is going to be dehydrated to some degree.  The instructors have to evaluate the situation based on a lot of things -- experience and training be the most important.  BOSS has been doing these course for 37 years and this is the first time they've had a death.  I think their track record speaks for itself -- they try very hard to facilitate a safe experience but it is what it is -- a wilderness desert survival situation that people want to experience and choose to do.
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Offline Anonymous

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2007, 12:53:01 AM »
A ?mistake? is one thing- a poorly designed program is another. These people are there, have paid, to learn something, not be put in life-threatening situations and denied what they need to survive.

Not True, that is what you are paying for.  You're paying to experience a wilderness survival situation while learning traditional puebloan culture skills.

Quote
Your goal is to learn to 'live in the now' as your small group hikes many miles and learns the skills of traditional Puebloan cultures. Not for the faint of heart, a BOSS Field Course is for those seeking a challenge and a chance to renew
(from BOSS website)

If you don't want the physical challenge of what BOSS calls a Field Course, then they recommend you take an Explorer Course which is less physical and does not include an impact phase.

Quote
BOSS Explorer Courses offer a rustic wilderness experience without the physically-challenging Impact phase of Field Courses.


It's a choice which you take.
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Offline Deborah

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2007, 02:02:24 AM »
Hmm. You sound more like a BOSS employee, but whatever.

The guy spent four years in the U.S. Air Force, serving in Saudi Arabia, Greece and Greenland. He once hiked 4 miles across the tundra in full combat gear. He wasn't an idiot, nor was he out of shape.

Others reported that he complained of cramps, that he'd veered wildly between encouraging the others and being really dazed. He also knew he needed water and asked for it. The instructors carried water but wouldn't give him any.

Why? Water would've saved his life. Why did they refuse him what he needed to survive? Was the man's life less important than following the program procedures?

Which program he chose is irrelevant. I don't care what the protocol is for any given program, when a person is delusional they need to be given water. What would be the harm of erring on the side of caution? BOSS could've 'flunked' him out of the course. It was more important to deny his needs, for whatever screwed-up reason you can fabricate. A man died needlessly. There's nothing you can say to justify it or lay blame on the participant.  :rofl:
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Offline Deborah

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2007, 02:24:17 AM »
BTW, there was no news report that stated they only hiked 4 miles in 10 hours. All of them said they hiked "all day" from 9am to 7:30 when he died.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/95 ... etail.html
The group of 12 students and three instructors left a water source at 9 a.m. last Sunday and hiked all day in high temperatures without additional water. The group was several hundred yards from water when Dave Bushow passed out and died at about 7:30 p.m.

As his brother stated:
"The whole point is to teach them how to survive. But this is like rule No. 1 of what you don't do: Hike in the hot sun all day without water. He paid $3,000 to learn skills, not to be tortured to death," he said.
The expert quoted said, "when you're exerting yourself in warm temperatures, you might be sweating away as much as a liter of water an hour."

10 hours without water in 100+ degrees, requesting water, being denied, and you feel this outfit has no responsibility in this man's death? He knew what he needed, asked for it and was denied.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline nimdA

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2007, 02:58:31 AM »
The bigger question ought to be is why a grown adult didn't have the stones to say, "Fuck this shit I'm gonna drink all the water I want to survive."

This isn't anything about a program this is about one man who made some really crappy decisions that cost him his own life.
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Offline psy

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2007, 03:05:52 AM »
Quote from: ""Crash Test Dummy""
The bigger question ought to be is why a grown adult didn't have the stones to say, "Fuck this shit I'm gonna drink all the water I want to survive."


Military

(GAAH... must obey orders... ack *plop*)
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Offline nimdA

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2007, 03:10:56 AM »
Bollocks.
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Offline Anonymous

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Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2007, 03:13:40 AM »
Buttocks.
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