Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah

[Nihilanthic]

One of the victims was 29 years old. He was hardly a child, and I would be pressed to foist of responsibility for his death on another. A 29 year old man knows well enough when he has had enough. If he allowed himself to be egged on to keep going then his death is on his own head.

The 16 year old girl is a tragic loss. However, as part of a voluntary Outward Bound course that is basically a rough and tumble version of a summer camp I am still grasping at straws here as to see why this is on this forum. Of course who am I to say much considering I post things like the Asshole test. However, in all seriousness comparing an Outward Bound summer camp to a wilderness treatment program is a huge stretch. The girl was not forced to go to the program, and nor what their any intention of the 3 week trip being theraputic either.

However, that does not dismiss the Outward Bound Staff from being responsible for her death. Did they deliberately kill her? No I don't think that was the case at all. I do think they were negligent, but that is not saying the killed her on purpose. Basically they fucked up and now they will have to live with that for the rest of their lives. Personally, I would not bother bring charges up against the staff in that situation, but it would be the last wilderness expedition they participated in as staff.

They intentionally withheld water.

You do NOT do that shit in the fucking desert. Their incompetence resulted in death, thats something you have to do something about!

[Nihilanthic]

Something will be done about it I am sure. However, incompetence does not automatically make the result murder or even manslaughter.

Id think DONT WITHOLD WATER IN THE DESERT would be something they'd teach staff pretty fucking well.

If I run someone over because Im an incompetent driver would I get off easy? Nope...

[Nihilanthic]

Elisa Santry, of South Boston, died Sunday night during a hike in Lockhart Canyon in an Outward Bound Wilderness course. She was on the 16th day of a three-week outdoor course provided by the youth-adventure organization.

Outward Bound President Mickey Freeman said the girl was found with water remaining in her bottle, had passed a medical screening and had no known health problems.

Santry was with five other teens, ages 16-18, who were hiking through heavy brush to reach rafts waiting for them at the Colorado River. Outward Bound said it was trying to determine if she had stopped to wait for another hiker who had injured her ankle. The other girl made it to the river

It does not seem to me that she was denied water if their was water found in her water bottle. If anything she was not properly supervised for the signs of dehydration that apparently overtook her and led her to become confused about her location.

Note two items: Her medical screen showed no known health problems and two water was found in her water bottle.

The imcompetence is in the supervision, not something that did not happen as you claimed.

The 29 year old man should have been smart enough to say fuck it when he had a chance. Yet he didn't. His life was in his own hands, not the hands of anyone else.

Students are intentionally given little food or water to simulate hardship conditions.

Hello?

[Nihilanthic]

A 29-year-old man from New Jersey died Monday night near Boulder while taking part in a 28-day survival course offered by the Boulder Outdoor Survival School, Garfield County spokeswoman Becki Bronson said.

He was on the second day of the $3,000 course and in a group of 12 with three staff members. Temperatures were in the low 90s in the area, the National Weather Service said.

"All day Monday they were hiking in the heat with very little food or water," Bronson said. "He was complaining about lack of water and cramping and still given very little water and it was still hot."

Students are intentionally given little food or water to simulate hardship conditions

This is for an entire different incident and entirely different program than the one involving the 16 year old girl. Again I find that the responsibility of the death of the 29 year old rests with the 29 year old who voluntarily went on the expedition. At 29 years old most of us know when to say we have had enough.

He didn't, and now he is he is dead, and further, it's his own damn fault.

All day Monday they were hiking in the heat with very little food or water," Bronson said. "He was complaining about lack of water and cramping and still given very little water and it was still hot."

Then how else do you say youve had enough?

[Nihilanthic]

YO Fucksticks! Give me water now, and while you are at it.. point me in the direction of the nearest Titty Bar because this course blows ass!

Right, youre going to get pissy to people youre completely dependant on? And what if they said "no, fuck you sissy boy".

You forget just how much most people tend to defer and do as told. If youre a professional you should know what to do, and do it. Hes not the only one who fucked up.

Sure, Id mug someone for food and water at the drop of the hat, but Im a hair triggered jackass looking for an excuse to beat someones face in, and Im not most people. Plus assault charges can be a bitch  :roll:

[Nihilanthic]

Well then him being unable to say he needed water and directions to a titty bar are still his won damn fault. It looks to me that him being unable to take care of himself cost him his own life.

"He was complaining about lack of water and cramping and still given very little water and it was still hot."

He did, and he still wasnt given any.

[Anonymous]

Then it is still on his head. He surrendered his free will to the man. It's his own damn fault he wasn't made of stern enough stuff to say, "Wait a fucking second. I want water, and I want medical treatment, and I want them right god damn now, or you are all going to see my lawyer in court."

He was a 29 year old man with nothing forcing him to attend, or keeping him in attendance. He surrendered himself to the "Big Brother knows best"  mentality and for his choice he paid the ultimate price. At 29 years old you have to have it in you by then to make decisions for yourself. If you can't do that then you are always and forever more going to be a victim of the "Big Brother" mentality, and natural selection has its own cruel way of balancing the scales both genetically and socially.

This applies directly to program employees as well.

[Anonymous]

3 Springs,

You are correct.  Outward Bound is completely voluntary and, in fact, the particular course that this child was on will not take a kid with any emotional or behavioral problems whatsoever.  It is a rough but ehilarating journey.  Was the staff negligent-  maybe.  Does this story belong on Fornits on the Troubled Teen Industry thread- no.

[Deborah]

As for the teen, who sold her on the idea that OB would cure her of ?shyness? and ?build relationships??

?The group was on its 16th day of a 22-day course, during which Santry had written her mother to complain that some of the other students were bullying her, Freeman said.?
?The program encourages a buddy system, but Freeman said students sometimes travel by themselves, at their own pace, especially in the latter days of a long trip. Santry did not have an assigned buddy.?
I?d like to hear more about that. Was she the weakest participant? To what degree was she bullied/ harassed? Could that be why she didn?t opt out? Is this a course for ?Survival? maniac wannabes?
~~~~

As for the Skydiving analogy- Would it be cool with you if someone opened a ?survival? skydiving school where random chutes are designed not to open so you can learn what to do in that particular crisis? Is there a limit to what people can subject other people to for profit or ego?
~~~~

BOSS
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/95 ... etail.html
The group of 12 students and three instructors left a water source at 9 a.m. last Sunday and hiked all day in high temperatures without additional water. The group was several hundred yards from water when Dave Bushow passed out and died at about 7:30 p.m.

As his brother stated:
"The whole point is to teach them how to survive. But this is like rule No. 1 of what you don't do: Hike in the hot sun all day without water. He paid $3,000 to learn skills, not to be tortured to death," he said.
The expert quoted said, "when you're exerting yourself in warm temperatures, you might be sweating away as much as a liter of water an hour."
10 hours without water in 100+ degrees, requesting water, being denied, and you feel this outfit has no responsibility in this man?s death? He knew what he needed, asked for it and was denied.

?At BOSS, we teach you how to survive with technique, not technology. We place an emphasis on the skills that can provide shelter, water, fire, food, clothing, etc. without the need to carry a 60-pound backpack. As the saying goes, Know more, carry less."

Okay, then why take people to an area where there is no water to be found, where the staff are in charge of the water and with determining when a participant needs water? How do you teach people how to ?find? water in a place where there IS NOT WATER? The way one ?survives? the Utah desert is to take ample water and drink every 30 minutes. THAT?S the survival ?technique?.

We teach how indigenous cultures around the world have survived in harmony with the land for thousands of years. If you want a "Boot Camp" or "Rambo" experience, please consider something else. If you want to learn a softer path through the wilderness ?? a path that teaches how to create a positive impact on the land around you ?? please consider joining us at BOSS. For Field and Explorer Courses, this means hiking, climbing, and sweating during your time on the trail.

Climbing, hiking, sweating? when do they tell you that you?ll be denied water and food? They guy knew what he needed and asked for it as should be clear in this article.

July 25, 2006
Deprived of water, man dies
By Heather Yakin
Times Herald-Record
www.rememberdave.net - with pictures: Dave holding baby niece Kayla; Dave and Rob blowing out birthday-cake candles a week before Dave left.
The family is left with these photos, and with grief and anger.
"He was aware of what he needed, and these people deprived him of it," Rob Buschow said. "As far as I'm concerned, they watched him die and they let him die."

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4091082
"This is not an easy course," said Doug Ritter, a wilderness survival expert who edits Equipped to Survive, a publication that reviews survival equipment. "It is designed to stress individuals. Now, the difficulty arises, of course, in determining when somebody is stressed past the breaking point."
"The perceived risk of a BOSS field course is typically much higher than the actual risk," Bernstein said.
"There's a very fine line between a facilitated survival experience and a true survival experience," he added. "And our job is to keep the student on the facilitated side."
"They have a good reputation," said Henry Wood, the accreditation program manager for the Association for Experiential Education, which accredits outdoor schools like Outward Bound. "But they are a little bit out to themselves."
Bernstein, who is the host of the History Channel's "Digging for the Truth," acknowledges that the risk is part of what has made BOSS so successful.
"Once you've completed 'impact' and completed the course, you look back and say, 'I don't know if I would do it again, but I'm eternally grateful for having completed the challenge."'

[Deborah]

This topic absolutely belongs in this forum.

As for ties to the Industry...
From the BOSS website:
Traditional Living & Survival Skills Since 1968
Our program got its start in the late 1960's with a man named Larry Dean Olsen, the noted author of Outdoor Survival Skills. Larry felt that our society had lost its edge when it came to facing and overcoming the pressures of modern life. Mental toughness and the ability to adapt to harsh conditions were no longer common character traits. To deal with this situation, Larry created a wilderness program featuring specific physical and mental obstacles that would produce more adaptable and resourceful people.

In 1980, this program was incorporated as the Boulder Outdoor Survival School, establishing the foundation for a new and exciting venture in outdoor education. In 1985, David Wescott took over the reigns as owner. At this point, BOSS already had a reputation for offering a tough physical challenge to its students. Wescott grew the program to include teaching the traditional skills of the local Puebloan cultures (such as the Anasazi and Fremont,) adding more integrity to the program, as much of what we know about Southern Utah comes from these cultures. He hired instructors who appreciated the history and legacy of indigenous people and who could teach the skills of so-called "primitive" cultures to modern outdoor enthusiasts.

By 1990, in addition to its world-famous Field Courses, BOSS was offering Skills Courses focusing just on traditional skills. With topics ranging from edible plants to pottery to stone tools, students had the opportunity to explore the world of primitive skills in greater depth than the Field Courses allowed, in an environment free from the hardships of extreme hiking.

In 1994, BOSS alumnus and past staff member Josh Bernstein returned to BOSS as Marketing and Administrative Director and opened new offices in Boulder, Colorado. Combining his degree in anthropology with an international perspective, Josh restructured the BOSS curriculae to include a greater emphasis on traditional cultures and recreated BOSS's marketing plan to reach a broader audience. As a result, BOSS attracted a tremendous amount of exciting media exposure which has helped bring the mission and vision of BOSS to millions of people all over the world. However, even with all the exposure, BOSS remains committed to its cause: To provide courses which challenge people to learn about themselves and grow through adversity. To show how ancient knowledge and wisdom still have a place in our modern daily lives.
[Depriving people of water when there is no water to be found IS NOT "ancient wisdom".]

37 years later, BOSS is still based on its "Know more, Carry less" philosophy. Its course offering is broader, its staff is larger, but each course still brings to life the traditional skills of native cultures. While Larry has not been invovled since 1980, Larry's legacy lives on.

For more information about what BOSS courses are NOT (which helps some people understand what they ARE), please click here.

 :question: AND WHO IS LARRY DEAN OLSEN and DAVE WESCOTT?
Founders of Modern Wilderness Movement Honored in ?Clan of the Hand? Ceremony
Redcliff Ascent
Enterprise, Utah
800-898-1244
www.redcliffascent.com
By Mitch Cole, Information Manager, mitchc@redcliffascent.com,

RedCliff Ascent recently held a ribbon cutting ceremony at the Outpost, a newly developed skills camp that will also serve as a graduation facility and ceremonial area. In keeping with the ceremonial intent, an authentic replica of a Chaco-era Kiva has been built on site. Many hours of labor went into the rock laying and backfilling, and the end result is breathtaking: a true representation of what an ancient Kiva was really like.

In conjunction with the completion of the Outpost project, RedCliff established the "Clan of the Hand", an honor society of the men and women who have made the most significant impact in the industry of working with troubled youth in a wilderness setting. The first honorees were the five most influential men behind the modern wilderness movement: Larry Dean Olsen, Ezekiel Sanchez, Dave Wescott, Doug Nelson, and Larry Wells. Each honoree was presented with a beautiful chief's blanket and taken to the Kiva for a special ceremony inducting them into the "Clan of the Hand". There, they left their handprints in red ochre on the stones of honor inside the Kiva.

Larry Dean Olsen, a graduate of BYU with a degree in Education, is the author of numerous articles and the book Outdoor Survival Skills, which has been on the bestseller list for over 30 years. He is also a founding member of the National Association of Therapeutic Wilderness Camps, and the ANASAZI Foundation, a non-profit wilderness treatment program for troubled teens and their parents. Most of us in the wilderness field recognize Larry Dean Olsen as the "father" of the modern wilderness movement.

Currently Larry Dean Olsen runs ANASAZI with Ezekiel Sanchez. Ezekiel, the oldest of 16 children, attended BYU on a scholarship where he met Larry Dean Olsen, who invited him to participate in a wilderness survival course that Larry had organized. Ezekiel's talents for wilderness survival were quickly appreciated and Larry invited him to join him on his staff. Ezekiel worked with many BYU survival groups, and later also taught seminary classes at a Navajo reservation in Arizona. He acted as the Director of training at the Missionary Training Center in Provo. He and Larry Dean Olsen established the ANASAZI Foundation in 1989, and to this day they are still involved in its operations. Ezekiel and his wife Pauline were named the Arizona Parents of the Year in 2001, and won the Excellence in Parenting 2002 National Award from the National Parents Day Council.

Larry Wells was first introduced to the wilderness concept through his own experiences as a former inmate in the Idaho Corrections System. Early on Larry realized the therapeutic value of the outdoors and began to work hard to make outdoor therapy a viable alternative to incarceration after his release. Ultimately he became the volunteer coordinator for Volunteers in Corrections in Idaho. After Larry Wells read Larry Dean Olsen's Outdoor Survival Skills, he was so impressed that he contacted him and sought advice on how to start an outdoor program in Idaho. He began a non-profit program to help corrections youth and began taking youthful offenders out in the wilderness to help them work out their issues. Larry Wells worked with many youth programs through the years doing contract work. In 1988, Larry began Wilderness Conquest, now called Wilderness Quest. Larry Wells has helped thousands of youth achieve better lives through his efforts.

Dave Wescott was first exposed to the Wilderness program idea through Larry Dean Olsen's "480" course at BYU. He rapidly developed an interest and began helping to run programs for the BYU outdoor department then eventually went on to the University of Colorado where he finished his graduate work. Then he went to Stillwater, Oklahoma to develop a National Indian Recreation Training Program and worked there for two years before moving to Rick's College to head the new Outdoor Department. Five years later he struck out on his own, purchasing the Boulder Outdoor Survival School (BOSS) from longtime friend, Doug Nelson. Dave ran BOSS for 12 years, ran the first Aspen Health Services therapeutic program, and also helped create the Alta Training Systems to develop a national standard for youth program instructors. Dave still runs the Rabbit Stick events and has a turn of the century village, which teaches skills such as blacksmithing, timber framing, and boat building, at Teton, Idaho.

Doug Nelson got involved in the BYU 480 program in 1971and stayed with it until it was no longer offered. He began Boulder Outdoor Survival School in the spring of 1978, running it successfully until he sold it 8 years later to Dave Wescott. He also began Aspen Achievement Academy along with some friends and colleagues: Keith Hooker, and Doug Cloward. Doug has given numerous lectures and workshops on Wilderness Survival/Treatment programs.

There is no way we can completely tell the tale of all the many thousands of lives these men have touched or the significance of the impact they have had on the wilderness industry as a whole. The best we can do is say a heartfelt "Thank You" and express our deepest gratitude for a job well done, and for lives which have exemplified service in its highest form. The Clan of the Hand ceremony was truly a moving experience for all who participated, and holds a special place in the history of RedCliff Ascent.

[Anonymous]

I personally like to have facts before I jump to any conclusions. Regarding the 16-yr old girl, I have read here that she was hiking 1/4 mile with several other students to reach the Colorado River where the group was supposed to go rafting. I have read speculation that she may have been waiting for another girl, and that the other girl did make it to the river. I have read that the girl who died was found with water in her possession.

I have no way of determining which if any of these "facts" are true, but if some or all of them are true, I have a lot of questions about what really happened in this tragic situation.

Where I live, the temperatures this time of year are even hotter than in the Canyonlands area of Utah. That doesn't prevent many people here from being outdoors, walking around, skateboarding or exerting themselves in other ways that exceed the physical stress of a 1/4 mile hike. Of course, maintaining hydration is essential.

If this girl was left alone, unsupervised by properly trained staff, was the program negligent? Perhaps. Does the girl also share some responsibility in what happened? I have no way of forming an educated opinion on that without confirmation of all the facts, but I accept the possibility that she may have made some choices that contributed to this tragedy.

[Deborah]

It was 6:00 when they noticed her missing. The ¼ mile hike to the river was the ?last leg of the hike?. How far had they hiked prior to the ?last leg??

So, she was found with water in her possession. Does that ensure that she?d had adequate water for the day? 6 quarts + electrolytes, as recommended by experts. Enough to replace the quart per hour she lost by sweating? It?s quiet possible that she had little all day and was given that bottle before beginning the ?last leg? of the hike. Someone needs to interview the other participants. If I were the parents I?d be asking names and numbers.

She apparently wasn?t waiting for the injured girl- ?The sheriff's office in San Juan County released a statement saying that Santry had stayed behind to wait for a girl who had injured her ankle. Outward Bound officials disputed that account. They said the injured girl had been evacuated before Santry and the other teenagers reached the last leg of the hike.?

It was stated that they frequently hike alone that far into the program. She was clearly unsupervised. Didn't have a buddy. Was it negligent to allow a 16 year old to be in that situation? Guess we?ll all have different opinions, but is that what you?d want for your child? Yes, she may have ignorantly made some fatal ?choices?, but being dehydrated, suffering from heat exhaustion, could?ve contributed to her ?choices?.

Do participants and parents fully understand the inherent risks? Not the understanding that comes from signing a waiver, that?s expected even with summer camps. I?m talking about details of the program and the real risks involved.

Why don't they put leg bands on them so they can track them, like the ones used for criminals? Is there a back up plan in the event that someone becomes disoriented due to dehydration and wonders into danger?

[Anonymous]

All valid points Deborah, and I guess I'm saying I personally want to reserve judgement at this point because I don't know the answers to the questions you raised. Yes, if it were my child that died, I'd be demanding a whole lot of information and explanations.

There is a big difference between withholding water and providing water that someone chooses not to drink. There is a difference between hiking at the pace of the slowest member and urging everyone to "keep up." The lack of supervision really bothers me, and I believe there may be some liability there. But that depends on the terms of the agreement and the specifics of phrases like "safety precautions." If it were stated in writing and known up front that there are, say, 3 staffers for a group of 8 participants, and that there would be periods of time in which participants are not directly visible to staffers, that might make a difference in terms of who is liable and to what extent. For all we know, it's possible that this girl intentionally took a detour to check out a point of interest, thinking she'd be right back and at the river in time to avoid delaying the group.

I am a strong believer in regulating the Troubled Teen industry and eliminating institutionalized child abuse, which is why I like reading the posts here. But I am also a strong believer in individual rights and personal freedom, including the freedom to take certain risks in my own pursuit of recreation. I have done a lot of things in the outdoors with friends that could have resulted in injury or death -- hiking, camping, off-roading, etc. I would not expect any of my friends to be held responsible if something bad happened to me, as long as it were truly accidental  -- no malice or reckless disregard for my safety by anyone in the group.

At times, I have paid others to provide me the opportunity to enjoy risky outdoor activities like snow skiing. It would piss me off if, for example, ski resorts started requiring all skiers and snowboarders to wear helmets simply to reduce their legal liability. I don't want to wear a helmet, I accept the risk associated with that, and I value the freedom to make that personal choice.

All I'm saying is that to me, the circumstances of this girl's death are not so black and white and at this point I think it's unfair to assign blame.

[Deborah]

While it MAY be a fun experience, Do these people, does anyone here, REALLY believe that 2 weeks in the wild is going to miraculously cure "kids who are socially insecure, academically challenged, in economic need, suffering from poor self-esteem or a learning disability, or have undergone abuse."
"I kiyaked, hiked, mountain biked, fished... now I'm secure, able to study and learn, am not distressed about my family's economic challenges."
What's the REAL purpose?

June 2006
campWILD
BYU outdoor program gives kids confidence through paddling

David is in the awkward giraffe stage of adolescence?legs long and skinny, torso not quite caught up yet. He smiles shyly when I ask him about his favorite CampWILD experience. ?Rafting down the Salmon?and I flipped my first pancake!? he says.

CampWILD is run by the Wilderness Instruction and Leadership Development Foundation, a non-profit for kids who are socially insecure, academically challenged, in economic need, suffering from poor self-esteem or a learning disability, or have undergone abuse. ?These kids are ?at risk of becoming at-risk,?? explains CampWILD co-founder Verle Duerden.

The camp is located in Shoup, Idaho, and is run in conjunction with Brigham Young University?s outdoor recreation department, which is researching the impact of outdoor recreation on self-confidence. ?When people have an overwhelming mastery experience, they finish and think, ?Wow, now I can do anything,?? says BYU professor of recreation management Mark Widmer.

During the two-week sessions, the 24 campers sample whitewater rafting and kayaking on the Main Salmon, as well as backpacking, mountain biking, survival skills and fly fishing. The activities are designed to foster teamwork and core values such as respect, integrity, kindness and gratitude. The paddling portion is conducted under the close supervision of licensed guides, giving the campers the opportunity to guide the boats themselves. Counselors are volunteer university students, with a ratio of two counselors for every three campers.

Thanks to donations, campers pay just $25 to attend the camp. ?We want all kids who need to be here to be able to come, regardless of economic need,? says Stacy Taniguchi, a BYU professor and cofounder of the program.

On the last night of CampWILD, campers join in with their ?coaches? for a rousing rendition of the camp song around the campfire. Awards are handed out, and boys launch into a steady stream of personal testimonials. ?I love how we were always encouraged to do stuff,? says Andrew. ?Before I came here, I knew nothing about some of the things we did,? adds Chandler. Then Sam, an intense, athletic, typically quiet boy stands up. His words bring applause and more than one tear to counselors? eyes: ?I just want to say I love you all?CampWILD rocks!? Info: (800) 453-1482.

?Irene Middleman Thomas
http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/2 ... _287.shtml

[Deborah]

I fully support your right and anyone else?s to take risks. Not the argument. I've taken a number myself. There are usually signs posted or participants are otherwise warned that they are participating in a given activity ?at their own risk?.

On the other hand, When someone takes money to TEACH someone a skill, particularly, HOW TO SURVIVE in the goddamn desert, then they do hold some responsibility, when they control and deny what the participant needs in order to stay safe, alive. Or when they take ignorant city kids into a dangerous situation without adequate precaution.

Would you feel the same way if your ?friends? took you to the desert, hiked you all day in 100+ degrees, while denying you water (and food)when you complained of thirst and cramps? Would your friends behavior, in that case, be considered malicious or reckless? Would you still consider them ?friends?, provided you survived the ordeal? If you don?t answer yes, I?m writing you off as a troll.

Bottomline, if you have something a person needs to survive and deny them, you have caused the death. Can it be any clearer? I don't care what kind of waiver you sign, I guarentee you, no one that signs that document believes for a second that they are going to be denied water when they are in dire need.