Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah

[Bunnie]

I have much respect for you in some of your posts,Crash Dummy,
But I don't know if you realize, that the people participating in the program were NOT allowed water bottles, yet the staff had some, it is basic human compassion to give water to someone who is in trouble.

[nimdA]

Then as an adult you say give me my money back. Use a little common sense no forced the man to participate.

[Anonymous]

I have much respect for you in some of your posts,Crash Dummy,

I don't. I think he's a loser.

 ::nod::

[nimdA]

I have much respect for you in some of your posts,Crash Dummy,

I don't. I think he's a loser.

 ::nod::

I second that! :tup:

[Anonymous]

Shut up. And don't nobody give TSW any water, he is on restriction until we make next camp.  :flame:

[Anonymous]

Others reported that he complained of cramps, that he'd veered wildly between encouraging the others and being really dazed. He also knew he needed water and asked for it. The instructors carried water but wouldn't give him any.

No, I'm not a BOSS employee just a satisfied customer.  You're speculating based partial quotes and we don't full situation.  The local did a full investigation, getting COMPLETE statements from everyone and determined that there was no negligence.  Perhaps the instructor was unaware that he veered wildly or was delusional.  I have NO idea.  I'm just not going to speculate based on media story.

Which program he chose is irrelevant. I don't care what the protocol is for any given program, when a person is delusional they need to be given water. What would be the harm of erring on the side of caution? BOSS could've 'flunked' him out of the course. It was more important to deny his needs, for whatever screwed-up reason you can fabricate. A man died needlessly. There's nothing you can say to justify it or lay blame on the participant.  :rofl:

I didn't blame the participant or the school.  You can choose to leave the course.  When I took my course, 2 people dropped out.  That something else we don't know.  Did Dave ask to drop out?  I have no idea.

No one was denying him water for a screwed up reason.  The participants are on a course phase that you are trying to survive off only what you find in the environment.  That's what was signed up for. To me, it would be odd on a course like this if someone said, I'm hungry and suddenly you stop and a full meal is served.  That's not the point of the course.

[Anonymous]

BTW, there was no news report that stated they only hiked 4 miles in 10 hours. All of them said they hiked "all day" from 9am to 7:30 when he died.

Don't know what your point -- no reason for me to make up things.  Of course, the newest news stories leave that detail out.  Again, you're make wide assumptions that the media has published the full story and that everything said is 100% accurate.

If you go back to the original reports, there was an interview with Josh Bernstein where he said 4-miles.  Some of the original reports also said that the high-temperature for that day was I think 93 degrees.  The newest stories just round up and say 100+.

Here's one where one of the students speculates it was around 5-6 miles.

    "We didn't cover all that much distance, maybe five to six miles. We were moving slowly, a lot of up and down," DeTar said in an interview from Vermont.

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,12 ... 07,00.html

[Anonymous]

I have much respect for you in some of your posts,Crash Dummy,
But I don't know if you realize, that the people participating in the program were NOT allowed water bottles, yet the staff had some, it is basic human compassion to give water to someone who is in trouble.

During most of the course, you are allowed to carry 2 32 ounce water bottles; however, during the impact phase, you are only allowed to carry 1 24 ounce metal cup.

When I took the course, I chose to fill my 24 ounce cup with water as we left a water hole and carried it, sipping the water.  From the stories, you can't really get that detail -- the stories say, the water bottle wasn't allowed -- that's true.  But from my experience, you could carry water in the cup -- it was awkward since you tend to get tired of carrying the way you have to carry a cup.

I agree with CTD though.  If he had decided to fill the water bottle anyway, they could have either allowed it or expelled him from the class.

[Anonymous]

3/10

Riiiiiiiight.

Look, I'm not sure you're aware what kind of forum you've happened to step into here. We deal with this shit all the time, from people many times more experienced than you.

Go peddle this "the media was going on false information, the original reports said..." bullshit to kindergarteners stupid enough to believe it.

[Anonymous]

3/10

Riiiiiiiight.

Look, I'm not sure you're aware what kind of forum you've happened to step into here. We deal with this shit all the time, from people many times more experienced than you.

Go peddle this "the media was going on false information, the original reports said..." bullshit to kindergarteners stupid enough to believe it.

I said that they tend to give partial quotes and leave out certain details.  Have no idea how you know what my experience level is.

Here's the link to one of the original reports where the 4 mile distance is clearly given.  So...if the new reports don't report that known info, kinda proves my point.  So, don't know where you're coming from.

Don't think I said anything that most don't know about media reports.

I'm giving my opinion just like everyone else.

I in NO WAY fell that people have to agree with me.  I'm just hoping to voice my view just like everyone else.

And, in this case, to also point out the problem with taking news stories as being the whole picture.  To read some of the news stories, it sounds like there was negligence.  However, official investigations by two different organizations said that everything was done correctly -- I can only assume; therefore, that we don't have all the details.

Doesn't seem like a stretch at to me.  Again, just my take.

[Anonymous]

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_203172624.html

[Deborah]

The bigger question ought to be is why a grown adult didn't have the stones to say, "Fuck this shit I'm gonna drink all the water I want to survive."

This isn't anything about a program this is about one man who made some really crappy decisions that cost him his own life.

How do you arrive at that? What crappy decisions did he make?

This has everything to do with a program. The man is dead because of the decisions made by the macho staff running the program and their unwillingness to bend macho policy. I'm certain the participants expect that the 'rules' will be broken and water will be provided if they get into real trouble. I think that is a reasonable assumption, and certainly one I'd make.

Should BOSS be required to put in their disclaimer that they are macholy serious about their program policies and water will not be provided, even if the participant is delirious and/or dying? And, disclaim that their staff is not capable of determining when a participant is trouble- suffering from heat exhaustion or dehydration?

No different than wilderness programs, when the guy was sitting 100 yards from the water source and couldn't move to get water, I guess the macho staff assumed he was 'faking'. Now why would a grown man 'refuse' to walk the last 100 yards if he was physically capable of doing so?

[Anonymous]

I would imagine, because he didn't want to seem like a pussy. It is the macho attitude you talk about that keeps one man in a group of many from turning back, it's peer pressure I guess is what people call it. They weren't going to physically restrain and drag him along, so unlike some adolescent programs, the prison was not physical it was mental. I think grouping in this with adolescent programs dilutes the forced abuse upon the kids, IMHO.

[Anonymous]

Which reminds me of the stories from those groups of men climbing Everest, they sometimes leave a live person (injured or straggling) behind to die alone in the cold. Is that program related behavior too?

[Anonymous]

The bigger question ought to be is why a grown adult didn't have the stones to say, "Fuck this shit I'm gonna drink all the water I want to survive."

This isn't anything about a program this is about one man who made some really crappy decisions that cost him his own life.

How do you arrive at that? What crappy decisions did he make?

This has everything to do with a program. The man is dead because of the decisions made by the macho staff running the program and their unwillingness to bend macho policy. I'm certain the participants expect that the 'rules' will be broken and water will be provided if they get into real trouble. I think that is a reasonable assumption, and certainly one I'd make.

Should BOSS be required to put in their disclaimer that they are macholy serious about their program policies and water will not be provided, even if the participant is delirious and/or dying? And, disclaim that their staff is not capable of determining when a participant is trouble- suffering from heat exhaustion or dehydration?

No different than wilderness programs, when the guy was sitting 100 yards from the water source and couldn't move to get water, I guess the macho staff assumed he was 'faking'. Now why would a grown man 'refuse' to walk the last 100 yards if he was physically capable of doing so?

I think it is clear in the course description that you are given no food or water other than what is found on the course.

Welcome to Impact, the first phase on a BOSS Field Course. Our goal is to take you from a world of convenience and comfort and put you in a situation where you must go "just a little bit farther" — past those false limits your mind has set for your body. During this phase, you will carry no food and minimal water - collecting only what, if any, you find along the way.

I can said with certainty that the BOSS philosophy has nothing to do with being macho.  It has do to do with living in the environment simply.  They really want you to succeed.