Author Topic: looking for info on Abundant Life Academy  (Read 7383 times)

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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2006, 11:34:23 AM »
All I meant by "Z Prophet" is an Old Testament Prophet whose name begins with the letter Z.

Zephaniah & Zechariah are both old testament Prophets.

Pls Help - You make some valid points and I am in no way intending to dismiss them. Certainly we can agree to disagree on some of these things - I think in most things we are like minded.

Being a good protestant, I have many problems with Roman Catholicism - one of which is the concept of infant baptism to remove original sin. Maybe we can talk about it some other time

As to Thayer - if I'm not mistaken (and I could be) they actually bill themselves as Christian. There are several very disturbing programs that call themselves Christian - and like other Christians who have become aware of this, I am outraged by it.   I don't pretend to have a complete understanding of what Hell is, and what it will be like - we are not given a great deal of information on the subject - but it is certainly spoken of as a real place - Jesus describes it as the outer darkness, where there is weeping and nashing of teeth.  I think these so called Christians, who use the cloak of their supposed faith  as a masquerade for their sadism, will find a very dark and cold and lonely place in Hell. My opinion only, of corse. Luckily for them - I don't get to make that decision.

I'm glad you enjoyed the joke. It was a good little movie - I'l have to try and look it up and get the title.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2006, 03:35:52 PM »
Why are we waffling over the 'christian' angle to a program.

Programs are wrong intrinsically, you cant just throw a religion (ANY religion) at it to make it 'work', its just to attract stupid religious people vs stupid secular people to send their kids off.

A christian program just brainwashes kids for jesus and money instead of just money, big whoop. Its still psychologically abusive, its still based on coersion, and its still about as therapeutic and safe as a non christian program.  :roll:
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2006, 06:11:23 PM »
Hello Niles :D

Naturally, I don't agree that Christian teaching is brainwashing - but there are so many problems with the industry on the whole, that one can not be to careful.

And there are some Christian groups that operate very much like a cult. It pays to be aware of the signs to watch for; as you can't assume a church or group is helpful and beneficial just because they use Jesus' name.

I have recommended it on Fornits already - but its worth repeating - Cults in Our Midst.  A most valuable read.
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Offline White Cracker Man

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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2006, 07:28:40 PM »
Buzzkil, I understand what you are saying but I just do not  understand why Jesus would just stand by and not act on evil. For example, lets say a mother always tells her daughter Jesus will always be there to protect her and make sure no harm comes her way. One day that same girl is kidnapped, raped, killed by some sicko pedophile. Imagine that same girl saying to herself in her last moments of life. Jesus is gonna come save me. He will not let this sicko do any harm to me. But he doesn't come. Sicko pedophile kills her.I do not like to speak for others but I fell confident that you would do everything in your power to save this girl if you witnessed such an attack. I just do not understand why Jesus would not intervene. I am afraid the best response you may be able to ofer is Jesus works in mysterious ways and that he always has a plan. But why does his plan have to include a young girl being brutally murdered  by a sicko pedophile? I think that is a good question to ask any religion.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2006, 08:18:29 PM »
Quote from: Nihilanthic
Why are we waffling over the 'christian' angle to a program.

My objection was not about the programme being christian it was because it looked like brainwashing under any other name. "jesus is the only answer" a student handbook whihc was full of random biblical quotes but had few details about the running of the school. A picture which had a large sea of kids kneeling (not dissimilar to the pictures the media puts out showing masses of findamentalist muslims) & the idea that "troubled kids" can be fixed through adversity.
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2006, 09:35:50 PM »
Hi Mikey.

You have presented an age old problem/question - why do the evil proper, is another way of putting it. I don't know how you would feel about it - but you might want to consider reading C S Lewis' "the Problem of Pain". He deals with these issues far better than anything I could say would.

I suspect there are also Rabbis who have taken a stab at grappling with this subject. In fact, heres a link for you: http://www.torah.org/learning/issues/badgood.html

Another often recommended book on the subject by a Christian author is: "When God Doesn't Make Sense" by James Dobson.

There is also a book  "When bad things happen to Good People" - and I think it's author is Jewish. I'm not sure.

As for your tragic scenario - I would say the mother was wrong to promise her child any such thing. This is an idea common in some Christian groups (protection and prosperity)  but it is totally un-Biblical.  I do realize many a mom or dad has made such promises to a child with out really giving the matter much thought.

Still, this kind of teaching is in fact a New Age teaching, not Christian.  Its the idea we create our own reality - good comes to those who expect it - who think it into being. A church teaching this may say: you'll prosper if you have faith. Speak it into being, is another idea they teach. If you want money you should say out loud: I have lots of money - and you will, is the idea. If you are ill or have hard ships, it is b./c you are harboring sin, or you do not have enough faith.

No where does the Bible say anything like this. In fact - it says quite the opposite. I'm of the opinion those who teach this are attempting to turn the All Mighty Creator, into a genie they can manipulate.

At its most extreme, as described above, I feel it is a kind of Sorcery. I believe when this kind of thing is taught in a Church, it amounts to inviting Satan into the Sanctuary.

As to the child in your scenario - My personal belief is, her confusion, fear, and pain would dissolve and disappear; and she would find herself in the company of Jesus, waiting to take her were such things never were, and never will be.

We would of corse view her death as tragic beyond words. And from our perspective, it is. No question. But I suspect, God, being eternal; and having made us with an eternal soul and destination; would not see it that way. For us, death is tragically, horribly final. But from an eternal perspective it doesn't seem that way at all.

But to be clear on another point, the one doing harm to a child is under harsh judgment.  Jesus will not just stand by and let it go un noticed. He is the one about which Jesus said, he would be better off having a millstone tied around his neck, and thrown into the sea, than to face the judgment awaiting him.

Of corse, all of this is beyond the scope of the thread topic. If you want to "talk" about it some more, maybe we can go to email or PMs?
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2006, 10:53:44 PM »
I just jogged over to take a look at the current web site; see what I thought. Guess you guys will want to flay me - but I didn't get what your getting out of it at all.

I *think* what is meant by adversity is simply teaching the kid they can't have their every whim fulfilled the moment they think of it. You know - helping them learn how good it is to wait until they can pay for it themselves -and earn the money to do so for themselves. That kind of adversity. So many kids today really don't know what its like to want something they can't have - or to have to wait weeks or months or years to earn the money to buy it.

I think Craig is right, when he says the general problem is the average kid gets to much just handed to him.  Also, I  believe this is about allowing Jr to suffer the Natural consequences of his irresponsibility - not some falsely sever version of consequence - but the normal, everyday consequence to many parents tend to pave over for their kids; so as to keep them from feeling any sense of "adversity".  

Now again, I am so out of touch with ALA and the current situation, I can not speak to what one should expect there - but I don't get the same sense of concern you guys do from the web site. I didn't see the photo of the kids praying - but I doubt that would seem anything like the masses of Islamic jihadist to my eyes. (smiling)

TSW mentions  methodology - I can attest to the fact when my son was there, it was not at all forceful or harsh. I certainly disagree it is anything like the Spanish inquisition - which was bloody and murderous in its methods - as you well know. (your over stating your case a bit)  One can argue as to weather or not a program can effect change in a kid with out the risk of doing harm; But to say ALA amounts to forced conversion is a bit of a stretch.

(Maybe we can "talk" about your views on abortion some time - eh?)

A reminder since we're talking web sites: Naturally, I would caution anyone to never take their good impression of a web site as proof of any programs value. Its important to be aware of the warning signs and red flags.  Many of the most horrible have beautiful web sites. That being said - I think ALA has put up an honest web site.  This is what they believe.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2006, 03:43:58 AM »
http://abundantlifeacademy.com/contact.php

The sea of kids kneeling.  :-?

One general thrust of the site that i strongly disagreed with & 1 idea that gets bandied around a lot by the industry is that today's kids have a greater sense of entitlement than the previous generation. I notice that this claim is not usually backed up by anything statistically. there are also plenty of home remedies to this issue which programmes have a financial interest in not suggesting. I am sure every kid has heard about how in mum & dads day they had to walk to school for 50 miles wearing only tyres for shoes.

If i could add a random outside observation here, One thing that i have also noticed from my various trips to the US is that if your teens are largely out of control & in need of a firmer hand it is certainly not apparent to the naked eye. From the tough looking kids in new York who stood up for me on the subway to the texan kids who insisted on calling me Maam all the time, I never encountered any out of control kids. Moreover there seems to be a tradition that does not exist here of kids being involved in voluntary activities like Candy Striping or coaching sporting teams. One kid told me this was because it looked good on the uni application, but still it is obviously somewhat encouraged in a way that it is not in Australia. The only eq we have are surf lifesavers & they spend 1 hr patroling the beach & 3 drinking beer in the club rooms.

Academics like mike Males have also pointed out that teen pregnancy rates and violent crimes have been on the decline with American kids for years. In spite of this the behaviour mod industry has been growing. Could it be that the media are lying to the country & scaring decent, concerned parents & the industry is cashing in? One of the Time magazine headlines around the time of the columbine shootings was "A lost generation" Only 2 kids did this, but somehow they represent a whole generation.
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2006, 12:14:56 PM »
Well, I was right - we don't see the sea of kids kneeling the same way at all. (smiling) Looks like relatively small  group of people, sitting around in chairs, to me. Looks like it is probably a Bible study, as the one to the front has a Bible on his lap. No way to tell if they are in prayer or not - but it doesn't look like it to me.

I do think kids have to much handed to them. I do think in some cases this makes it hard for them to learn to deal with the frustration of having to wait, and work for something. But of corse I have no statistics.  

I will agree that in most cases the kids seem to do just fine anyway. It seldom leads to serious problems for the teen, or the family. But when you combine this habit of instant gratification with drug usage, you can get a rather troublesome set of behaviors as a result.

Even so, it must be acknowledged that programs seldom (if ever) solve these problems. I do think, that for some kids, in some cases, a program such as ALA can be helpful (based on my family's experience) If nothing else, it can get them in a new environment and away from the drugs (one hopes) and help them focus with a clear head on their education and future goals; and the value of public service and charity.  They may learn skills that will help them in future, even if they do have a spell of increased drug usage after the return home; which seems to be extremely common.  

As to your other observations, I do agree that American's are dealing with a propaganda war against their children.  I agree it is feeding the growth of this industry. I agree this is creating an environment where the potentional for abuse and neglect are so profound and serious, that a parent really can not be to careful. I agree that most of the "troubled" teens will mature out of their troubles on there own, with or with out the extremes of residentional intervention. Many of those who don't, are dealing with more serious issues of mental illness - and they certainly do not benefit from the typical program experience.

I just can't get as alarmed as you folks over ALA and their web site. I just don't see it the same way. And knowing what I know of this industry - and based on my personal experience - I find myself wishing there were more like ALA, (weather Christian or secular) as opposed to Thayer, or Bethel, or Living Waters Refuge, or Majestic Ranch, etcetera. Far less harm would be done (and maybe some good) if such were the case - as far as I'm concerned.

All this being said - let me reiterate - I know nothing about the current situation - and there have clearly been changes. Still, I find myself feeling the above paragraph is very likely accurate.

As to your observations of American kids - well I'm very glad to hear it - and not really surprised. Still, the fact is, that kid who insisted on calling you Mamme, might well more often than not, call his mom Stupid Bitch.

One thing I've noticed over and over - kids behave much better when not at home; or with people not their parents. I believe this is where the old tradition of sending a teen to live with relatives comes from. They often do better.  I think this factor plays into the idea of boarding schools - and summer camps - as well as the growth of residentional programs.  

One major (and most harmful) difference in the traditional methods and the current situation with the program is a lack of communication. I could go on - but I have things I need to get off my rump and go do - I am sure I need not explain it anyway.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2006, 09:42:35 PM »
TSW, if you want to get a sense of how Craig might run a bunch of impressionable kids and their gullible parents around, check out his correspondence at Dewey Cheetham & Howe
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2006, 09:47:25 PM »
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject:    Reply with quote
Heh sorry pls help but American kids get just about anything they want, plus their rights to be entilted to whatever they pretty much want is protected by the governent.

If this is indeed the case wouldnt the remedy be to just be a little less materially indulgent. Does your govt say that parents have to buy their kids a car ect?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2006, 10:03:03 PM »
Alternatively you could be a little more materially indulgent and use the money not spent on sending them to a Hell made by Christians to buy them a Dodge Viper instead.

Time to go dig up that thread...
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2006, 10:22:27 PM »
Quote from: ""Pls help""
Academics like mike Males have also pointed out that teen pregnancy rates and violent crimes have been on the decline with American kids for years. In spite of this the behaviour mod industry has been growing. Could it be that the media are lying to the country & scaring decent, concerned parents & the industry is cashing in? One of the Time magazine headlines around the time of the columbine shootings was "A lost generation" Only 2 kids did this, but somehow they represent a whole generation.


I was just talking to a young guy and my 10yo daughter about this earlier today. Kid is about mid `20's I guess. Neither one could believe that, when I was a kid, it was legal and pretty normal for a teenager or even pre-teen ride a moped, own a small boat and use it freely, drive their own car or the family car, have a job and their own money unsuveiled and go out on the weekends w/o having to submit a detailed ittinerary to the parental units.

The way it used to work, all the kids were all over the neighborhood all the time. The teenagers drifted in and out as their lives and babysitting money led them. Between the grapevine at their hang outs, like under the pier or down at the burger joint, and the neighborhood grapevine among us younger kids, not much happened that didn't eventually get back around to everybody. I caught hell the whole way. There was a girl a few years older than me who looked so much like me that I caught shit for everything she did. Never did meet her even once, but my brother cut a cop off in traffic to keep her from getting hit crossing the street and I met a good many of her patrons from the PlayPen a few years later looking for directions, usually to the Cheetah.

Now? Nobody knows nuthin. Everybody's locked away in their narrow tracks of activity and couch potatoing.
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2006, 10:23:22 PM »
Well Ginger - you've must've gotten quite a Hoot out of Tom's replies.
Almost made it all worth while, I bet.

TSW - As to your questions - Well really, I don't know. My guess would be they could hold to any faith they wanted - but it wouldn't be encouraged or treated equally - but again - no one is pretending otherwise. I honestly have no idea weather or not the Bible studies are required.

You say:
Try this.. swap bible study for LGAT and in the end you have about the same thing.

I couldn't disagree more.

Milk G - I don't think the Viper is such a good idea. I have often wondered if it might not be better in many ways to take a really awesome family vacation. I think this could afford many opportunities to talk that would never be found at home - and seeing new places and enjoying the sites can be a bonding experience. Or I guess it could also be a nightmare. I suppose like anything else, weather or not this would be good or bad, would depend on the particular family dynamics.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2006, 11:37:12 PM »
http://www.habitat.org/ccyp/intl_programs/default.aspx

In the spirit of not just bashing faith based programmes such as Abundance, above is a link to Habitat for humanity's youth programme. This would look great on the College application, encourage a kid to do something for the less fortunate and "entitled" in the community community & if they are really beginning to run off the rails lead them not into temptation! It is also run by a christian organisation so would be great for a kid from a christian family. A concerned parent could have their kid do this without having to worry about somebody cynically making buckets of money out of their families problems. A reward for their child's selflessness could be a mutually agreed upon family vacation. Everybody wins. :wink:
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen