The Who

[RobertBruce]

How about it Cindy?

[Nihilanthic]

Who- What are your and your daughter's thoughts on the SUWS wilderness program?  My son felt wilderness was very beneficial (once he got over his anger at being there, which took about 5 weeks....) and that it wasn't at all like Carlbrook, his TBS.  He thought the therapy in wilderness was very individualized and that the staff was excellent.  He did two stints at Second Nature.  There has been some discussion on this forum about wilderness.  Several posters feel wilderness can be beneficial and not harmful or abusive.  Others lump it is with all the other programs which use LGAT techniquees. I would be interested in your experience.

Charly -- another thought....
I could see how some kids may have trouble with the program.  If the child was out of shape or was injured and unable to walk very well this would not be a good choice for them.  But for the majority of kids I feel it would be beneficial.  There was one kid in my daughters group that said he would like to do it again, but he was a real out doors type and enjoyed the challenge of lighting fires with flint etc., I would not call this typical.  It is great for kids who lack self confident because each kids accomplishes a great deal during their stay there.
I haven?t heard much about second nature but it sounds similar to SUWS.

Has anyone ever wondered if forced 'challenge' and regimented 'success' actually gives any real self esteem?

You don't get a sense of self worth by doing what someone tells you to do, or irrelevant bullshit out in the woods that has no place in your life - all that 'self esteem' out in the woods means nothing here in the real world where we all live.

At any rate, all this woodsy bullshit is not therapeutic and is not consensual, and uhhhh there is still no proof any of this shit works, but It is so surreal to sit here seeing two programmie parents talking about how their children 'adjusted' to all of this that was forced upon them without either taking the time to imagine what its like to have to go through it themselves.

If they need therapy, give them therapy. IF they LIKE to walk in the woods and do that bullshit, then... let them go do it. But considering the cookie cutter approach these places have, and the fact that the VAST majority of kids tricked or escorted there have no experience with going out in the woods, living that way, having to do those things, and living in filth and shitty hygiene for such a long time, I fail to see how it is 'therapeutic' but I can see how it could be used to break them down and assert control.

I mean hell, the same counselors that push their buttons give them directions to campsites, give them food and water, and give them the few luxuries or opportunities to clean up they ever get. Does that just go right over your head?

[Anonymous]

Coercive therapy is a debunked ideology. Like many dangerous and debunked ideologies there will always be those who cling to it. A lot of people think the methods of scientology saved their life and their children. The most interesting part of fornits is watching program parents defend their beliefs.

[Anonymous]

You don't get a sense of self worth by doing what someone tells you to do

Have you ever had a real job?  A lot of being employed involves doing what someone tells you to do.  It can certainly give one a sense of self-worth.

[egypt has pyramids]

You don't get a sense of self worth by doing what someone tells you to do

Have you ever had a real job?  A lot of being employed involves doing what someone tells you to do.  It can certainly give one a sense of self-worth.

Have you ever been in a program?  :rofl:

Seriously program parents, these analogies you come up with are ridiculous sometimes.

[TheWho]

Its all perspective.  If you take a outdoor person who loves the dirt and hiking and put him in the city it might be comparably tough.  Its not the dirt, its taking a kid out of his comfortable environment and allowing him to accomplish something he/she probably never thought they could,i.e, start a fire, cook,  hike a few miles and at the same time learn something new about themselves, build self esteem, have a healthy diet.  Expose them to something new, It works Niles, its not for everyone, I agree, some get a lot out of it others do not.

[Nihilanthic]

So if it works for someone "Based on perspective" then you should do it to anyone who has parents wealthy and foolish enough to sign on?

Because, uh, that is what you are saying, unless you are blaming someone for not having the perspective to enjoy it.

Hey, lets use some of that logic and I'll tell my current love interest that anal sex is all about perspective and it is up to her to make it work, while I bust out the astroglide and push her knees up.

I mean, if it works for your kid, it should work for her, right?

While we're at it, lets take someone with a rape fantasy... how about I use that logic about simulated rape?

Or hypnosis, humiliation, masochism/flagellation, or being tied up for hours at a time. I mean, its all perspective!

[egypt has pyramids]

Its all perspective.  If you take a outdoor person who loves the dirt and hiking and put him in the city it might be comparably tough.  Its not the dirt, its taking a kid out of his comfortable environment and allowing him to accomplish something he/she probably never thought they could,i.e, start a fire, cook,  hike a few miles and at the same time learn something new about themselves, build self esteem, have a healthy diet.  Expose them to something new, It works Niles, its not for everyone, I agree, some get a lot out of it others do not.

Well if the kid is having problems they probably aren't all that comfortable in their environment at home either. Let's agree and say the kids do have a 'good' time meeting the staff, lighting fires, talking about their problems. Then what?

If you look on SNWP's webpage look what they list here for kids they accept:

     * Teen Depression
    * Learning Differences
    * Processing Disorder (Visual, Auditory)
    * Oppositional Defiant Disorder
    * Mild Eating Disorder Treatment
    * Attention Deficit Disorder
    * Gender Specific Issues
    * Self-Mutilation Treatment (Cutting)
    * Reactive Attachment Disorder Treatment (Attachment Disorder)
    * Social skill deficits: non-verbal learning disorders and Asperger?s traits (or PDD)
    * Substance Abuse Programs


Are you going to seriously sit there and suggest that 30 days out in the wilderness is going to help alleviate these issues? Let's leave the abuse argument off the table for the moment, and talk about effectiveness.

It seems to me wilderness programs are willing to accept a kid from the entire spectrum of troublehood. That means a parent might send a kid for smoking ciggarettes and talking back, and another might send their older teen for sexual assault, personality disorders and violence. Now, how can a facility be intellectually honest and suggest that their one-for-all type of treatment is going to help all these kids with such a variety of issues and backgrounds?

Of course these kinds of places have the potential to be abusive, I've read countless articles of kids being tortured to death in the name of wilderness therapy.

But beyond that, I believe it's downright dishonest and ineffective to advertise to parents they way they do. It's obvious this is a booming industry, and self-righteous folks from around the nation are heading in for the gold rush. To satisfy not only their financial desires, but their heartstrings as well.

[Nihilanthic]

I also love the assumption that taking someone out of a comfortable environment is a good thing.

Please don't say "comfort zone" either, alright?

Comfort, security and lack of stress and abundance of pleasure and happiness are things that help therapy... the inverse tends to hurt it.

And hwy do you also assume they want to achieve all this irrelevant bunk? Whoopie do I can build a fire... ok now how does that fix someone with real problems?

EDIT: Personal thing here.

" * Social skill deficits: non-verbal learning disorders and Asperger?s traits (or PDD) "

I was MIS-diagnosed with Aspergers but did have some acutal social skill problems. I can tell you right now that wilderness bullshit would not have helped ONE fucking iota. What did help was getting freedom, being happy, being away from stress (public school) and actual accomplishment with things that actually matter (going out to meet people and socialize, college, etc) and most importantly of all LEARNING HOW TO DO WHAT I WANT AND LEARNING HOW TO DECIDE WHAT I WANT TO DO.

Programs, wilderness or institutional do neither. You don't learn social skills or treat ASPERGERS (which is basically watered down autism) by being told what to do out in the woods and doing confrontation/disclosure based 'therapy' in a group and other LGAT-esque bullshit. Same for trail skills and isolation, coercion, being filthy, and whatnot.

If I had stupid parents I would have been a great program-kid candidate. I was so naive and depressed I would have easily been broken and washed, but I Can say right now I've done fine doing normal things... not that BM bullshit.

[egypt has pyramids]

Expose them to something new, It works Niles, its not for everyone, I agree, some get a lot out of it others do not.

I agree, it works for the kids with the minor issues, they are the type who enjoy the experience and take it for what it's worth, a camping trip. It's the kids who go there expecting help for serious life threatening issues that get the shaft.

[Nihilanthic]

We both know a camping trip and a fucking wilderness program have about as much in common as a Bed & Breakfast and Auschwitz have in common.

Do NOT draw that comparison.

[TheWho]

So if it works for someone "Based on perspective" then you should do it to anyone who has parents wealthy and foolish enough to sign on?

Because, uh, that is what you are saying, unless you are blaming someone for not having the perspective to enjoy it.

Hey, lets use some of that logic and I'll tell my current love interest that anal sex is all about perspective and it is up to her to make it work, while I bust out the astroglide and push her knees up.

I mean, if it works for your kid, it should work for her, right?

While we're at it, lets take someone with a rape fantasy... how about I use that logic about simulated rape?

Or hypnosis, humiliation, masochism/flagellation, or being tied up for hours at a time. I mean, its all perspective!

Wow, Niles, You exposed way too much of yourself on that one, you should cut back on the pay-per-view.
I agree it could be a good experience for everyone, myself included.  But not everything works for everyone.  Something like outward bound would be better suited for some children.  Once they are off, they cant just say oh I want to go home for a few days, it is a commitment and they have to hang tough and experience completion.  I know it may be hard to imagine but many of these basic concepts, like completing a task, setting up your own tent, using a can opener etc. are new to some kids.

[Nihilanthic]

PPV? Nah, that shit sucks. If you wanna get actual fetish erotica go to Cybernet Entertainment.

Good to know you got a little taken aback by that. At any rate, ITS ALL PERSPECTIVE! Gonna lube up your corn hole yet, buck o? I'm sure you can find a great dominatrix in your area to give perspective adjustment for about $100/hr...

Oh, wait, its not okay to make someone who does not like something like it by forcing it upon them, unless you're a child in a BM warehouse or wilderness camp!

 :rofl: MY MISTAKE.

Also, commitment by WHO? THEM? Coercion is coercion is coercion, regardless of some commitment or contract or inconvenience!

Your little attempt at reasoning is like tying someone up, and if they use the safe word when youre in the scene go "oh you made a commitment you "need" to hang tough and experience completion... ".

Wow, sure does make this easier to understand when you get all allegorical. Dunnit?

[egypt has pyramids]

We both know a camping trip and a fucking wilderness program have about as much in common as a Bed & Breakfast and Auschwitz have in common.

Do NOT draw that comparison.

I don't know how to respond... take a look at your own comparison and reread your statement and try not to laugh.

[Nihilanthic]

I'm pretty straight faced.

A wilderness camp is a camping trip, except its for a long time, you have no clue where you are going or when or for how long, you are filthy, you have to 'EARN' damn near everything, its not fun, you are forced to do lots of things, you have pressure points and joint locks used to make you move, the food sucks, counselors use gay indian names and push your buttons, you use encounter-based confrontational "therapy", and its not a trip to go have fun and do shit and use modern tools and conveniences, its intended to be as primitive and austere as possible.

So yeah, they both take place a far distance from human settlement, but thats about all they have in common.