The Who

[psy]

Who, what is your problem?  Why do you constantly acuse all the kids of manipulation.  Manipulation is a program term used to cover the programs ass  in case the child says they are being abused.  This way the program can say the child is lying and the program can continue its abuse.

Programs recognize that "manipulation" is a carte-blanche excuse to dismiss anything a kid says.  They know parents won't believe them, because, like all teenagers, they have lied to their parents in the past.  What parent's don't realize is just how dangerous ignoring pleas to help can be.  Any allegations of abuse or fraud, no matter how ridiculous sounding, should be investigated thoroughly (for example, by asking other "graduates", asking on Fornits, and/or informing the appropriate authorities).  Sure there is a chance the kid might be manipulating, but is that chance really worth taking?  My advice would be that (in addition to the previous suggested steps), if a child reports abuse, a parent should ask the child if it's something he/she feels should be reported to the police, warning them that filing a false police report is a crime.  If the kid still thinks the police should be informed, it's probably a valid complaint.  Even if the allegations aren't substantiated by evidence later on (as i suspect it might be, as police might not know what to look for), if there is a pattern of police reports coming from a given facility, my feeling is that the police would be forced to do something eventually (or wind up liable later on).

Oh.  And a parent should always insist on unmonitored, unrestricted communication with a child.  This also means not reporting allegations of abuse back to the program, because if they are valid, the consequences of such a disclosure could be dire for the kid (i.e. abused further for daring to speak out)...  It's also important a child be able to trust and confide in his/her parents.  If parents, often the last hope, ignore cries for help, or reports back to the program, the kid might just lose hope (not to mention all faith in authority) and it could leave him/her very bitter at his/her parents in the long run (not to mention cynical).

[Anonymous]

Failure to report suspected child abuse is a crime.  If a child tells a teacher, doctor or anyone they are being abused, reporting it is mandatory. Maybe asshole parents like the who would think twice about ignoring their kids pleas if they were held criminally liable for not reporting abuse allegations.  Wouldn't something like that stain their reputation in the community worse than an unruly child?

[psy]

Failure to report suspected child abuse is a crime.  If a child tells a teacher, doctor or anyone they are being abused, reporting it is mandatory. Maybe asshole parents like the who would think twice about ignoring their kids pleas if they were held criminally liable for not reporting abuse allegations.  Wouldn't something like that stain their reputation in the community worse than an unruly child?

I've heard of that law, but don't know of any situations where it has been applied.  It would be nice, though, to have it tried out once or twice to demonstrate to parents that they do have a legal obligation to report abuse.

[TheWho]

Who, what is your problem?  Why do you constantly acuse all the kids of manipulation.  Manipulation is a program term used to cover the programs ass  in case the child says they are being abused.  This way the program can say the child is lying and the program can continue its abuse.

All kids do manipulate (adults too).  If anyone here has ever had kids of their own then they know that manipulation isn’t a word the programs came up with.  When I was in high school they called it “Brown nosing”.  Everyone manipulates to a certain degree it is only wrong when it is done to be underhanded.  Being a little extra nice to a person who may donate to a cause you are involved in like cancer research etc. may be considered manipulation but it is not harmful.
Many here think that certain dialog and events are unique to programs when they are not.  I see many parallels to my experience in highschool and private school events.

@ psy Good point, psy.  The parents know their own kids best too.  Asking them if they want the police brought in is a good way to differentiate between a child who is manipulating or not.



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[RobertBruce]

Manipulation is to be expected when the kids are facing hard work and consequences,

Is it now? I attended public school for many years and not once was I ever sent home a syllabus that stated anything along the lines of, "your child will lie and tell you this is a horrible place. This is just a case of him manipulating you. Do not believe him." When I went to college and sat in on freshman orientation I never heard a Dean mention to the parents, "expect your son or daughter to call you claiming we're abusing them. This is just more of that manipulation you've come to expect."

Why is it that these programs are the only ones who have to forewarn parents about their kids claiming to be abused? If everything is fine why not just address the issue if it comes up. It almost sounds like by placing these warnings in the parent handbooks they're manipulating them to expect their kids to lie.

Why is that Cindy?

Also is it your belife that 60 kids die per week of violent deaths in public schools?

[TheWho]

Kids in programs tend to manipulate more then those in the public school system according to staff at HLA so they need to give the parents the heads up (you should know this Bruce, who are you kidding?).  Teachers in public schools turn off the lights at 3:00 and go home and could give a crap about the kid until 8:00 the next morning.  The staff in programs need to be working with the kids 24/7 and if the kids are use to a parent who allows them to do what they want they are in for a rude awakening and the change can be tough at first.  So manipulating the parents is a natural occurrence and is to be expected,  but the longer the parents allow the child to manipulate them the longer it will take for the child to finish the program and the more it will cost the parents in the end,  just need to nip it in the bud quickly so the child can get back to work.

[Anonymous]

if the kids are use to a parent who allows them to do what they want they are in for a rude awakening and the change can be tough at first.

Sometimes fatal, especially when the staff are a bunch of uneducated yahoos.  You claim teachers don't care about the kids after school, but I've seen program staff who work "24/7" with kids regard the kids as less than animals and treat them that way.

So manipulating the parents is a natural occurrence and is to be expected,  but the longer the parents allow the child to manipulate them the longer it will take for the child to finish the program and the more it will cost the parents in the end,  just need to nip it in the bud quickly so the child can get back to work.

Manipulation requires use of the hands, what you're talking about is influencing but manipulation sounds so much worse and scares parents.  Who is really "manipulating" the parents, the kid who says he/she is being abused (and they don't get long before they're cut-off) or the program when they tell parents to ignore their kids concerns?  If a child says he or she is being abused, it is mandatory to report it.  With no proof that any program works, why should a parent risk losing their child by putting blind faith in program staff who view their kids as cattle?  Programs are only holding pens, there is no evidence of long lasting positive changes in program kids.  Parents are happy when their kids are off drugs and credit the program with "success", never realizing the kids are off drugs because there is no access to drugs while they are locked up. (except the antipsychotics and med regimen of the program).   What happens when the kid is out of the program and back in the land of vice aplenty?  The program will call it a "relapse", but was the kid helped or just denied access?  Was the kid even an addict when admitted to the program?  There are a  lot of deviant peer influences at work when kids are lumped together in "one size fits all" treatment programs.  Your kids could come out of treatment with habits and unhealthy interests that were never issues before.

Never give up the right to question a program's treatment methods, even though the program may demand 100% compliance.  If a program refuses to answer with your questions or accuses you of being "misaligned" with treatment pull your kid out of there.  Parents have a duty to listen to and protect their kids.  Handing them over to individuals with unknown backgrounds for "tough love" is piss-poor parenting.

[TheWho]

Bad Noose (nice name!!) Wrote:

Sometimes fatal, especially when the staff are a bunch of uneducated yahoos. You claim teachers don't care about the kids after school, but I've seen program staff who work "24/7" with kids regard the kids as less than animals and treat them that way.

There are exceptions to everything.  Some programs hire uneducated staff and don’t train them properly.  Some teachers in public schools have sex with the kids.  Many kids die in public schools, some kids die in private schools.
The key is to find the safest place for your child and you need to do the proper research. Speak to the schools, parents who had kids attend etc.

Manipulation requires use of the hands, what you're talking about is influencing but manipulation sounds so much worse and scares parents. Who is really "manipulating" the parents, the kid who says he/she is being abused (and they don't get long before they're cut-off) or the program when they tell parents to ignore their kids concerns? If a child says he or she is being abused, it is mandatory to report it.

I think i can agree here that there is manipulation going on by more than just the children in some cases.

With no proof that any program works, why should a parent risk losing their child by putting blind faith in program staff who view their kids as cattle? Programs are only holding pens, there is no evidence of long lasting positive changes in program kids.

What parents need to do is choose a program that has a good track record and has been proven effective, a place where the kids excel and get back on track.

Parents are happy when their kids are off drugs and credit the program with "success", never realizing the kids are off drugs because there is no access to drugs while they are locked up. (except the antipsychotics and med regimen of the program). What happens when the kid is out of the program and back in the land of vice aplenty? The program will call it a "relapse", but was the kid helped or just denied access?

This is true, but a good program will equip the child with the tools he/she needs for when they graduate.

Was the kid even an addict when admitted to the program? There are a lot of deviant peer influences at work when kids are lumped together in "one size fits all" treatment programs. Your kids could come out of treatment with habits and unhealthy interests that were never issues before.

This is one reason I advocate having the child evaluated prior to making a placement.  This way everyone knows what the issues are and what the goals are for the child.  This allows for proper measurement of success.

Never give up the right to question a program's treatment methods, even though the program may demand 100% compliance. If a program refuses to answer with your questions or accuses you of being "misaligned" with treatment pull your kid out of there. Parents have a duty to listen to and protect their kids. Handing them over to individuals with unknown backgrounds for "tough love" is piss-poor parenting.

I think we agree here 100%... Parents need to do their homework prior to making any decision regarding their children.



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[ThéWho]

Who are toxic people? People who are obviously crazy? Sociopaths? Wife beaters? Drunks? Yes all these people undoubtedly are, but there is a second group who are not so obvious. They poison you with little doses that you are unaware of. Call them emotional vampires or people with personality disorders, they all have the same goal, to use you as a conduit for their own distorted emotional needs.

“Just as harmful viruses require a human host to exist and thrive, so do negative states require the unconscious consent of human beings to carry out their dark mission.”

http://stason.org/articles/life/self...ic-People.html


This is accomplished by projection. An example is when someone hates someone and believes they hated person instead dislikes them. A more twisted form of this is projective identification, where a person takes what they don't like about themselves and subconsciously (or not) induce it into someone, to rid themselves of it. How an emotional vampire works is by using a process called “counter-projection” To quote Jung:


“All projections provoke counter-projection when the object is unconscious of the quality projected upon it by the subject”.

This will cause an obsession of the target with the projector. That is why the vampire always gets the girl in the movies. If you are with someone and afterwards you wonder why you did or said the things you did, you might be in the grip of this.

Is someone trying to put you into an emotional state? Reliving a past negative experience to feed off the pain? Putting others down to establish their own superiority? Do they find no joy in life and need a negative atmosphere to function? It's red flag time.

These are some of the methods they use to accomplish this: blame, shame (makes you question your own sanity before theirs), negating your thoughts and emotions, or drawing you into toxic gossiping and backbiting.

They can pretend to be “just concerned about you”, but the goal is to produce anxiety. They may want you to remain a failure or mediocre all your life, because taking care of your inabilities has become a part of their self-esteem. It varies from person to person, but the bottom line is, you are being manipulated and used and if you don't watch it being made into a co-dependent.

You can find the different type of emotional vampires and the personality disorders they relate to here:

http://www.albernstein.com/id55.htm

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[RobertBruce]

What parents need to do is choose a program that has a good track record and has been proven effective, a place where the kids excel and get back on track.

And an example of such a program might be.......?

Also Cindy, still waiting to hear from you on why public high schools and colleges dont send home warnings to parents about their childrens upcoming manipulations and claims of abuse.

[TheWho]

Look, Devon, you seem like a nice enough guy and probably contribute and add value in your personal life.  But I am here to help with the issues concerning the “Troubled Teen industry”, discuss the details with others who are looking to learn and grow, as I am, along with sharing my personal experiences.  When you can demonstrate that you are willing to have an adult conversation with others here and are sincere in trying to discuss the issues and add value here then I will respond in kind.



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[Troll Control]

No, you won't. :wall:

[ThéWho]

Look, everybody, I seem like a nice enough guy and probably don't contribute or add value in anyone's personal life. So I am here to troll the issues concerning the “Troubled Teen industry”, dispute and degrade the details of others who are looking to learn and grow, as I am not, along with ridiculing their personal experiences. When I can demonstrate that I am willing to have an adult conversation with others here and I'm sincere in trying to discuss the issues and add value here then you should respond.



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[Anonymous]

Look, everybody, I seem like a nice enough guy and probably don't contribute or add value in anyone's personal life. So I am here to troll the issues concerning the “Troubled Teen industry”, dispute and degrade the details of others who are looking to learn and grow, as I am not, along with ridiculing their personal experiences. When I can demonstrate that I am willing to have an adult conversation with others here and I'm sincere in trying to discuss the issues and add value here then you should respond.

Are you really this lonely and your life that devoid of value that you feel the need to impersonate someone even MORE lonely and pathetic than yourself?

 

[ThéWho]

Are you really this lonely and your life that devoid of value that you feel the need to impersonate someone even MORE lonely and pathetic than yourself?

 

Ha,Ha,Ha...