Author Topic: Three Springs wilderness camps  (Read 32518 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2006, 05:45:46 PM »
Shouldn't it be obvious by now who her abuser (assuming she really exists at all) is?

He just didn't want to do it himself anymore.

Read his previous posts with this in mind and they start making a lot more sense.
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Offline Sark

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« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2006, 08:28:33 PM »
The abuser was not someone we were trying to protect.  We did go after him.  Unfortunately, since he was also a minor the police said he'd get a slap on the wrist.

At the time she was not willing to testify against him.  After we learned more about the situation... we went back to the poilce again.  They said it would be her word against his.  I had telephone recordings.  They said it was inadmissable because he didn't know he was being recorded.

I am very disappointed in the laws and law enforcement's inability to assist.  I had to turn my attention to getting my daughter help, which consisted of intensive family therapy - as this was a family problem, not just her problem.  I believe I should take responsibility and do what I can to change laws to help protect kids from school peer abusers.

I'm not perfect.  I didn't throw in the towel and choose residential treatment.  We spent two years trying other alternatives.  We did our best to follow the advice of "professionals."

And I'm offended at your twisted thinking for believing I wanted this for my daughter!!!

In my opinion, the APA and the entire industry does not come out with a clear voice on this issue.  Just like what the poster said about some residential programs versus others.  Look, I did the best I knew how.  And I have not....ever....ever....ever stopped loving my daughter and telling her that I love her, and telling her that my love is not based on what she does or does not do in or out of therapy.  And that it doesn't matter what happened, what she did, or what she does in the future.  She is my daughter.  What I did was not to make my life easier... I'm trying to save her.  You can disagree with that.

And so I can sit on a board like this and get trashed by all you out there...  And that's supposed to help????
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quot;The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time and retain the ability to function.\"  - F. Scott Fitzgerald

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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2006, 08:40:04 PM »
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Might ask her if she's been required to do any role playing exercises in which she plays the victim. Seems to be a popular technique in the industry.


Sounds a lot more like BDSM than therapy there, Deborah.
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Sark

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« Reply #153 on: October 14, 2006, 09:16:45 PM »
In an interview with Dr. James Alexander, progenitor of functional family therapy (FFT), he states:

Quote
That is one of the things that a lot of people in our field don?t
tend to acknowledge. They tend to act as if they believe that
if we give parents a tool to be good parents, they are going
to be happy and just start adopting those tools. And even
when the kid changes, a lot of times the parent won?t
change, and the thing falls apart. A lot of treatment programs
that are residential experience this; they pull kids out of the
home environment and ?fix them? and then put them back in
the original environment. Then what they say is, ?You all
have to continue to do the right thing the way we did in residential
treatment.? But you know residential treatment has
people that are paid and trained to do things well."

Now isn't that interesting...that he doesn't bash the residential treatment program...but rather acknowledges they have people who are paid and trained to do things well.

He goes on to say...

Quote
Parents, in contrast, a lot of times have mental health or
other issues themselves...  And all of these things do not allow them
to continue the positive changes that, in fact, were made in
residential treatment, boot camp, or similar programs that
remove the youth from their natural environment but then
return them without changing the natural environment. In
contrast, evidence programs such as FFT and multisystemic
therapy deal directly with those natural environments.


Did he just acknowledge postive changes that, in fact, were made in residential treatment, boot camp, or similar programs?  Yes, he did.

How interesting that a person of such renowned reputation would actually admit there are positive changes that can and do occur in these programs.

And that's something proponents of FFT on this board have NEVER acknowledged.

http://http://tfj.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/14/3/306
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #154 on: October 14, 2006, 10:01:25 PM »
Somehow I think he meant state-run psychiatric facilities instead of private prisons, because I can't imagine him endorsing this (link) as a valid form of treatment.

I'll wait until you're done reading that. You done? Every word? It's all important, you know. All right, let's continue.

What he's saying can be boiled down decisively: The kids are fucked up because the parents are fucked up, and returning the kids to their fucked up parents will lead to disaster. "The program was a horror show but at least it beat living with my mom": THAT is a sentiment you might see on Fornits for some of the hellholes that don't abuse kids *quite* as much as Three Springs does.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #155 on: October 14, 2006, 10:19:32 PM »
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penal""
Somehow I think he meant state-run psychiatric facilities instead of private prisons, because I can't imagine him endorsing this (link) as a valid form of treatment.


I understand you can't imagine him saying residential treatment and even boot camps are producing valuable changes.  I was shocked too.  But go back and read it again.  And repeat it out loud.

I agree he his not giving blanket approval for all programs.  But certainly you do agree that he does give credit to some of these programs for producing positive results and EVEN "fixing" kids.  And that's the admission I have yet to hear you or anyone else state.

See, the problem is that "all of you people" (I know, generalization) love to slam the crap out of me because I would even think of residential treatment as a possible alternative.  But apparently Dr. Alexander does.  No wonder there is so much confusion about this topic...

And here's the real key that I think is so important about what he says.  It can't stop there.  I mean, let's just say, for the sake of argument, my daughter does get some help in residential treatment (which I believe she is).  His point, and what you are also saying, is that it can't stop there - that if she comes back to the same situation - and if the family dynamic sucks, then any good she did make is going to be erased.  And I totally agree with that.  Do you?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2006, 10:35:00 PM »
Odds are he didn't have a damn clue about what really goes on and was conflating the good with the bad. Does he talk at length about what a residential treatment program entails, uses, or is? I doubt it. It's not his job to know what goes on. His specialty is FFT, not shitpits masquerading as therapy. I doubt he even knows what any of this is. I'd bet you a fat amount of money that if he did know, he'd wouldn't be supportive, he'd be appalled.

Someone actually mind contacting this professional, showing him the relevant evidence, and asking him to make a statement on the main forum at Fornits? Somehow I think it'll shut this argument down right quick.

Wait, asshole, you replied way too soon.. you didn't even read that link, did you? Would you like to read that out loud instead? Wait, why the hell am I even pretending you're real?

You know what, asshole? The jig's up. You don't have a daughter, or if you do, you clearly don't give two shits about anything more than your own vindication. The last person to get on my nerves involving a fictional kid got a piece of his soul ripped out, and is now struggling in a futile bid to hold onto his career. You wanna fucking join him?

Don't reply to me. Reply to what I linked to. Because the statements made in that link (detailed descriptions of extreme humiliation and abuse, like some twisted S&M fantasy without the whole 'consent' part) are far more important than anything I can say to you.

Quote
Then there was the real abuse.  I remember a member named Kenny who had PTSD.  He was a very low functioning individual that rarely spoke and had a very difficult time taking care of himself.  Each group has its own campsite which we are responsible for keeping clean.  They would actually have us sweep the dirt ground outside for hours to make it smooth.  One day on the weekend Kenny was responsible for sweeping the dirt floor of our firewood hut.  He started eating spider webs and kids in the group started making fun of him.  The staff that was in charge that day told the group that if Kenny wouldn?t do his cleaning task, we should ?clean him?.  Kenny started acting out and lay down on the ground.  The staff ordered us to take the brooms and start sweeping his body.  It got violent and he was messed up pretty badly with a bunch of us hitting him with brooms and scratching him up with them. (the bristles were worn down to almost sticks from the daily outdoor use).


Yeah. Therapy.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #157 on: October 14, 2006, 10:48:00 PM »
I will continue to study the site.  Hadn't seen it before - and I thought the (link) didn't come through.  I will be interested in hearing the results of those testimonies.  These are the kind of atrocities that should be reported.

But why would that cause you to continue giving me crap for trying to do my part?  See, that's just as narrow minded as you claim I am.

I don't know why you would say I don't have a daughter and my postings are not real.  I guess it doesn't matter does it?  I have to do what I have to do for her.  Regardless of what anyone says on this forum.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #158 on: October 14, 2006, 11:04:06 PM »
My fucking GOD.

Quote
I will be interested in hearing the results of those testimonies. These are the kind of atrocities that should be reported.


THAT is your reaction? Not "I'm going to get to the bottom of this and find out if it's bullshit or not, because my fucking DAUGHTER is in there"? Not even a blanket statement of "There's no way this can be for real"? You're more interested in defending your precious decision, again assuming you're not a paid shill, than anything else. It's disgusting.

PARENTS! You too can end up just like THIS GUY, for the low, low price of thousands of dollars and your integrity!

Oh, and these statements to HEAL aren't going anywhere in any court- at least not yet. In the one correct statement you've made so far, law enforcement won't do anything.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #159 on: October 14, 2006, 11:16:00 PM »
Boo goes the who  :o
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #160 on: October 15, 2006, 01:48:52 AM »
esark, why would you cite a paper that can't be read without an Editor/Society/Insitution Subscription? Post the entire paper if you have a membership. Why do you have a membership to Sage?

I've been reading up on Alexander and his Functional Family Therapy (FFT) approach. I can't find any reference to him being in support of residential treatment. In fact, it's the antithesis of what he recommends- Family Therapy.
My take on what he said is, IFa kid happens to benefit from a residential placement with highly qualified professionals, s/he will not be successful at home because the parents were not included.
Everything I read about this guy supports intense family therapy, 12-30 sessions with one of his specially trained therapist. I can?t find one instance in which he endorses residential treatment.
 
Teaches Psych at University of Utah
http://www.psych.utah.edu/classes/

Dr. James Alexander, University of Utah, received the American Psychological Association Division 43 Distinguished Contribution to Family Psychology Award on July 29, 2004.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/DirReports/DirR ... ort20.html

Faculty. Dr. James Alexander (Ph.D., 1967, Michigan State University) is the course instructor and will also lecture on abnormal and clinical psychology. His intervention model, Functional Family Therapy, has been chosen by the CDC, US Surgeon?s General, National Institute of Justice as one of the few empirically validated interventions for disruptive behavior disorders in adolescents. http://www.psych.utah.edu/classes/2006_ ... llabus.pdf

And what does the US Surgeon General say about Boot Camps and Residential Treatment?
Compared to traditional forms of incarceration, boot camps produced no significant effects on recidivism in three out of four evaluations and trends toward increased recidivism in two. The fourth evaluation showed significant harmful effects on youths, with a significant increase in recidivism.
While some residential programs appear to have positive effects on youths as long as they remain in the institutional setting, research demonstrates consistently that these effects diminish once young people leave.
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/y ... veTertiary

From the US Dept of Justice re: FFT
From 1973 to the present, published data have reflected the positive outcomes of FFT. Data show, for instance, that when compared with standard juvenile probation services, residential treatment, and alternative therapeutic approaches, FFT is highly successful. Both randomized trials and nonrandomized comparison group studies (Alexander et al., 2000) show that FFT significantly reduces recidivism for a wide range of juvenile offense patterns. In addition, studies have found that FFT dramatically reduces the cost of treatment. A recent Washington State study, for example, shows savings of up to $14,000 per family (Aos, Barnoski, and Lieb, 1998). FFT also significantly reduces potential new offending for siblings of treated adolescents (Klein, Alexander, and Parsons, 1977). Figures 1  (randomized clinical trials) and 2 (comparison studies) summarize the outcome findings of FFT studies conducted during the past 30 years. These studies show that when compared with no treatment, other family therapy interventions, and traditional juvenile court services (e.g., probation), FFT can reduce adolescent rearrests by 20?60 percent. http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/184743.pdf

In December of 2000, Office of Juvenile Justice of Delinquency Prevention issued a Juvenile Justice Bulletin on FFT by the founders of FFT (Sexton & Alexander, 2000). The OJJDP Bulletin cited recidivism rates for the FFT treated population at just over 20% while the residential treatment cases had a recidivism rate of approximately 90%.  These figures are not inconsistent with the New York State experience where estimates of recidivism after placement in a juvenile justice facility approach or exceed 90% while some intensive aftercare models have succeeded in reducing recidivism rates to approximately 20%.

What is FFT?
? Empirically grounded, well-documented and highly successful family intervention program for dysfunctional youth
? Applied to a wide range of at-risk youth aged 11-18 and their families, including youth with problems such as conduct disorder, violent acting-out, and substance abuse
? Intervention ranges from, on average, 8 to 12 one-hour sessions up to 30 sessions of direct service for more difficult situations
? Conducted both in clinic settings as an outpatient therapy and as a home-based model
? A treatment technique that is appealing because of its clear identification of specific phases, which organize intervention in a coherent manner, thereby allowing clinicians to maintain focus in the context of considerable family and individual disruption
? Each phase includes specific goals, assessment foci, specific techniques of intervention, and therapist skills necessary for success.

Who benefits from FFT?
Youth ages 10-18, and their families, whose problems range from acting out to conduct disorder to alcohol/substance abuse. Often these families tend to have limited resources, histories of failure, a range of diagnoses and exposure to multiple systems. FFT can be provided in a variety of contexts, including schools, child welfare, probation, parole/aftercare, mental health, and as an alternative to incarceration or out-of-home placement.
http://www.fftinc.com/whatis.php
http://www.hspeople.com/includes/hspeop ... 050701.cfm

In a recent article regarding FFT in King County Washington, parents noted that FFT worked for their children because of "the emphasis on working with the youth as part of the family (Loughran, 2002). The therapist focused on real, every day solutions to dealing with missed curfews, truancy and drug use. Families learned not to blame the youth or the parents but to talk about differences and talk about attainable goals as a group. A therapist usually meets with families in their homes, at their convenience, and provides continued support after the formal sessions have concluded". It is important that young people are seen as part of the family in this therapy model. In addition, FFT should be accessible to all and according to need. FFT should promote communication between the parents and the young person. The focus of this model needs to be on the total family, not just the young person's issues. Additionally, FFT should consider working with interventions that have made a positive difference in the family.
http://www.omh.state.ny.us/omhweb/ebp/children_fft.htm

In general, treatment programs must integrate cognitive, affective and social interventions. They must also be community-based with a strong case advocacy component. Programs should also provide opportunities for the child?s involvement and should demonstrate respect for the youth.8 In view of the fact that "most violent behavior is learned behavior",5 there is a great potential for successful intervention. The Center for the Study and Prevention of Violence has reviewed over 450 delinquency, drug and violence prevention programs and has identified ten programs that meet a high standard (see references for the list).12 The duration of treatment was typically two to five years. The average cost for a stay in the Department of Corrections is $40,000.00 per year,9 while residential treatment programs cost between $20,000 and $40,000 per youth per year, and mentoring and visitation programs cost $1,000 and $7,000 per year respectively. Four of the ten model programs saved more money than they cost in a three-year period. "Our most effective prevention programs achieve a thirty to forty percent reduction in onset or offending rates compared to control groups or average rates."12  
12. Elliott, Delbert S. Prevention Programs that Work for Youth: Violence Prevention. Center for the Study and Prevention of Violence, 1998. (The Nurse Home Visitation Program-Dr. David Olds, The Bullying Prevention Program-Dr. Dan Olweus, Promoting Alternative Thinking Strategies (PATHS)-Dr. Mark Greenburg, Big Brothers Big sisters Mentoring Program-Ms. Dagmar McGill, Life Skills Training-Dr. Gil Botvin, Midwestern Prevention Project-Dr. Mary Ann Pentz, Quantum Opportunities-Mr. Ben Lattimore, Multisystemic Therapy (MST)-Dr. Scott Henggeler, Functional Family Therapy (FFT)-Dr. James Alexander, Multidimensional Treatment Foster Care-Dr. Patricia Chamberlain
http://www.emory.edu/AAPL/newsletter/N232juv-viol.htm

Dr. James Alexander of the Department of Psychology at the University of Utah developed a research-based intervention called Functional Family Therapy for use with delinquent youth (Alexander and Parsons, 1982). Alexander's family therapy research worked closely with the courts and randomly assigned first-time court offenders to his approach and contrasted it with several other approaches. His family therapy interventions with families of delinquent youth involved changing how the families interacted with one another (e.g., using communication training, including problem solving, listening, and taking turns speaking). When Alexander and Parsons did 3-year followups with court data, they found that the recidivism rates of the family therapy youth were half those of youth who received the routine array of available services (Alexander and Parsons, 1982). In addition, after the intervention, the siblings of the delinquents in the study's treatment group were also followed; they were half as likely as siblings of control group youth to get involved in the court system as delinquents. Some findings of Alexander's study are integrated into FAST family communication activities. http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/9911_2/fam6.html

Details on FAST, based on FFT
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/173423.pdf

Sexton and Alexander?s work with functional family therapy (so called because it focuses its interventions on family relationships that influence and are influenced by, and thus are functions of, positive and negative behaviors) for youth offenders found that family therapy nearly halved the rate of re-offending?19.8 percent in the treatment group compared to 36 percent in a control group. The cost of the family therapy ranged from $700 to $1,000 per family for the 2-year study period. The average cost of detention for that period was at least $6,000 per youth; the cost of a residential treatment program was at least $13,500. In this instance, the cost benefits of family therapy were clear and compelling.
An adolescent who is primarily smoking marijuana, for instance, is a good candidate for family systems work. On the other hand, if a youth is mixing cocaine, amphetamines, alcohol, and other drugs, the client is likely to need more extensive services detoxification, residential treatment, or intensive outpatient therapy  which can be used in addition to family therapy (Liddle and Hogue 2001).
http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summar ... 6&nbr=3872
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #161 on: October 15, 2006, 05:55:22 AM »
The continuing theme in these forums continues to be 100% equivocally opposed to residential therapy of all kinds.  Parents who are receiving professional guidance by those in the industry are lambasted by those in these forums as obviously uncaring, cruel tryants who want no good from their kids.

Fact:  The APA has awarded the Gold Award to at least one residential therapy program, thus creating an impression or question that there is a place in the continuum of care for residential treatment.

Fact:  The progenitor of FFT has acknowledged residential treatment (including boot camps, of all things) have produced positive results in cases.

Fact:  Whenever positions like these are presented, the obvious answer by members of these forums is to degrade the conversation into higher levels of attack and threats, rather than acknowledge the decisions are not as clear cut or black and white as may have been stated by those in these forums.

Why do I have a membership to sage?  Because it is free, and I wanted to do my research to find out what FFT really is all about.  It is a very positive and appears to be a successful treatment.  And I believe, contrary to you, that Dr. Alexander would approve of it as a systematic and multi-phase approach to treatment which might even include residential therapy.

Once again... I am not defending the abuses which are present in the residential therapy industry.  I am not denying the benefits of FFT or similar therapy.  I am merely stating that you seem to be cutting parents off at the knees for trying to help their kids.  You have justified your position by quoting the APA and such sources.  And I'm just saying that it is NOT that clear by the APA, by Dr. Alexendar or any other source.  So cut us a break!

Of course I'm fairly confident this post will be answer by more slanderous accusations...because you have no compassion in your own right.  I guess it was lost along the way somewhere....
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #162 on: October 15, 2006, 08:33:40 AM »
Quote
Fact: The APA has awarded the Gold Award to at least one residential therapy program, thus creating an impression or question that there is a place in the continuum of care for residential treatment.


Esark, you're missing the point again and agian.  YES, the APA does approve of SOME RTC's, HOWEVER, you fail to note the DEFINITIONS of such facilities.

3 Springs and others like it ARE NOT RTC's!  They are pseudo-RTC's that provide NONE of the services offered by quality facilities.

The devil's in the details and you refuse to look at them.  You compare apples to oranges, as Deb pointed out.  

If you think I'm wrong, show where the APA backs ANY "TBS," "Boot Camp," or "Emotional Growth" facility.  Show ONE and I'll concede the point entirely.  When the APA says "RTC" what they mean (read their definitions) is a regulated, licensed facility which employs licensed, fully-credentialed practitioners who engage clients in real therapy.  they do NOT mean an unlicensed, unregulated private program that employs unlicensed, uneducated staff and teachers.  I assure you, 3 Springs does not resemble the former in any way, shape or form.

Stop setting up strawmen that can easily be knocked down to try to score points in a debate or feel better about your decision.  You DID NOT place your kid in a facility that is approved or even acknowledged by the APA.  It is not a psychiatric facility.  It is a behavior modification center, as shown by all of the literature available and as enumerated quite thoughtfully by former employess, who, in my long experience, are the ONLY ones who actually KNOW what goes on behind closed doors in these warehouses.

And, BTW,I don't know of a SINGLE poster here who is opposed to residential treatment.  That is another strawman argument.  Almost every single person who posts here will tell you that when a child is in danger of hurting or killing themselves or another, it is appropriate to plcae them in a RTC for the period required to stabilize them, usually NO MORE THAN THIRTY DAYS.

So, stop mixing your metaphors, get down to the brass tacks, stop setting up strawmen and get your facts straight.

There ARE people here who would like to help you, but being defensive, close-minded and skewing the information you present gives the impression that you don't want help, but rather wish to justify or prove correct your actions.  That doesn't float here.  For a sycophantic pat on the back and a slew of "atta boy's" you need to post on StrugglingTeens, where nobody is criticized, programs cannot be spoken of and any pro-program idea, no matter how misinformed or factually bereft is lauded and encouraged.
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« Reply #163 on: October 15, 2006, 10:53:17 AM »
I posted this on another thread, but it seems it should have gone here...

Also, whenever I see "BM" used by a programee, I can't help but think of it as a euphemism for "shit". I have noticed I tend to want to excoriate these programees and EdCons, but when they say this isn't the forum for recognizing non-abusive, forward-thinking facilities, I think it's because they're not aware of any or don't represent any. Okay, I've been accused of being too "emotionally involved" and "angry" to engage in discussion of better programs. How about I offer up my knowledge of one, and I'm not afraid to name it. Sheppard Pratt in MD is a fine facility that I would recommend to anyone. It is more expensive than most, but the kids' stays are shorter. Sheppard Pratt would be the model program to base new facilities on after we wipe the slate clean of the brutal and sometimes lethal programs out there now. A NATSAP seal on a website should be a sign to a parent to look elsewhere.
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_______________________________________________
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2006, 01:20:34 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
A NATSAP seal on a website should be a sign to a parent to look elsewhere.


Well said. A NATSAP seal on a website is a big red flag.
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