Author Topic: Three Springs wilderness camps  (Read 32548 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #120 on: October 12, 2006, 11:08:10 PM »
Yes you are warned going in that your child will try and manipulate the program.

The psychiatrist sees the children who are on medication or need to be on medication.  She only sees them for the monitoring of the meds as needed by the meds they are on.  The parents really do not talk directly with her.  The communication is done through the family service worker or nurse.  The children will see the psychologist initially when they come in to the program and then they see her once a month after that.

The first question would take way to long to answer.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #121 on: October 12, 2006, 11:08:21 PM »
Seems the program is more worried about keeping them in the program and giving the parents a dog and pony show than any amount of actual therapy or doing what is in the childs interest or what the child wishes done.
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Offline mbnh31782

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« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2006, 06:22:27 AM »
Ok being out of the loop for the day forces me to quote some stuff that was way back in the thread, however I will post my take on it.  Do with it what you will.

The program at Three Springs was designed to prevent "manipulation".  It promoted group contact and enforced consequences that were not desireable.  Not only were the consequences undesireable, but the alternatives was equally as distasteful.  Some kids acted out just to get on consequence because it gave them privacy of sorts.  They didn't have to deal with the group.  If they acted out long enough they might even get discharged to a RYDC - Regional Youth Detention Center.  Most of the kids I spoke to in the program in my area (Georgia) were begging their Probation Officer (PO) or their DFCS - Department of Family Children Services - Caseworkers to "Please take me anywhere but here".  One girl's convo with her PO had her showing him her blisters on her hands that she had recieved while working and doing yard work around the facility.  When the kids were not in school, they did yardwork outside.  Mowing the lawn, weeding the walkway, gathering wood, and other such "housekeeping" procedures.  

Not to mention there were ALLIGATORS around the facility that were known to live in the ponds on campus and come up on the grounds while the kids would be on site.  How safe is that?  I didn't think so!

Expounding on the interventions TSW had set up descriptions for earlier in this thread are my own views on what we did.

Quote
GI or Group Ignore: The resident has proven so troublesome he or she is placed on group ignore. The resident is required to cook their own meals, stay at least 10 feet away from the group at all times, and carry their personal effects in a backpack. The resident showers after the group, and does everything after the group does without any of the rewards for timely behavior. The group is prohibited from speaking to the resident, and likewise the resident is prohibited from speaking with the group and counselor.

Primitive: A resident who has acted so innappropriately that it is felt they no longer deserve any of the benifits of group or campus are put on primitive. The resident sleeps in a tent off the campus under the supervision of a counselor. The counselor on converses with the resident on items of importance. The resident is required to complete work projects, follow all instructions, shower daily, and cook their own meals. The resident must show a certain number of days of consistency in order to transition off primitive.

This intervention was used quite extensively at my facility.  It was combined with the Campsite intervention (or as TSW put it "primitive")  While they wouldnt sleep in a tent, they had to cook their own meals outside.  I had some wonderful french toast with the kids that were on my campsite intervention.  More on that later.  

If an entire group showed complete troublesome behavior or disrespect for the facility, the entire group could be placed on "Campsite" which ineffect, since all things were opened with keys from the outside, their building would be locked and they would only be allowed in at night to sleep and shower.  Portapotties were on campus across a field and about a quarter mile walk from wherever the group would be "Campsited" and were frequently used as toileting areas.  The kids were made to stay outside from 6 in the morning until approximately 9 at night when they would come inside for showers and sleep.  During this time, they were made to cook their meals over an open fire and stay outside in either extreme cold or sometimes blistering heat of approximate 105 during the day, with little or no shade.

Quote
Trek: The group as a whole had demonstrated inappropriate behaviors. The group is removed from their campsite and given back packs. They are made to walk 6 to 10 miles a day carrying their own equipment. They cook their own means and are required to walk in silence. They must have a certain number of consistent days in order to return to use of their cabin and campus. During this time they are not allowed the privelage of attending school or eating in the dining hall.

I had only heard of trekking used once in an intervention for an individual resident who had poor behavior.  They made this resident carry approximately 40 lbs of rocks in her backpack and walk around the entire facility repeatedly while staff followed her in a golf cart.  Because each group we had made their own meals in their own cabins, the individual could be excluded from the cabin mealtimes.  I'm sure the trek distance was approximately 10 miles or so around the entire campus.  If one were to walk the entire campus up and down for the entire day it could entirely reach 10 miles.  This person was also put on primitive at the same time as she was put on trekking.


Quote
Stage Suspension: The resident has of course acted contrary to the norms of the program in such a mannner they loose their currently attained stage. The resident's current stage is suspended and the resident is required to re-earn that stage and privelages with the exception of privelages involving home visits.

In our cases, we could even suspend homevisits and refuse a child their home visits.

Quote
Run Risk: A student has either attempted to or expressed the desire to run away. They are immediately placed on run risk. This includes loosing their shoe laces and belt. They are not allowed access to their personal area, and must have their clothes for shower time carried by another resident. They are only allowed to speak with certain members of the group, and the counselor. They are required to be kept on link, a length of rope, with the counselor at all times. They undergo a body search at least 1 time a day, and must take their showers under the supervision of a counselor.

Run Risk was also followed at my facility.  They were stripped to all but shorts and a teeshirt and their personal underwear.  They werent allowed shoes and had to wear flipflops.  They had to stay within 5 feet of a counselor at all times, and they were sometimes put on "contact buddy" where a counselor had to be touching them/holding on to them at all times.  They were made to wear orange reflector vests so that neighboring groups and counselors could identify them as run risk.  In extreme cases they were stripped of all rights to wear clothing but their undergarments and were made to wear an orange jumpsuit.  They MAY be allowed a teeshirt for under the main part of the jumpsuit.

I wish we could have used a rope to hold them.

TSW -- you missed one!!  SUICIDE RISK-- I think you confused suicide with run...

Suicide Risk:  A resident would indicate or attempt suicide.  This could be done in a myriad of ways.  From verbally expressing it to actually making advances to doing it, the suicide risk would be placed as an intervention.  Suicide risk were also not allowed laces or belts.   They were either allowed to wear their shoes with no laces or had to wear flipflops.  Suicide risks were not allowed near their personal areas/lockers, and had to have all their personal effects taken and carried by a counselor.  The counselor had to search them for anything they might be hiding.  They had to be monitored during the showers by having part of the shower curtain down so the counselor could see the head and neck of the resident.  The counselor had to hand the resident shampoo and other such effects during their 5 minutes timed shower.  If the resident had to use the bathroom, the resident had to be stripsearched each time they went to the bathroom.  They werent allowed to lock the door to the stall and they had to have a hand in plain view of the counselor and had to count or sing or make noise to let the counselor know they were still alive.

Moving on!  Everybody with me? Next stop!!

Quote
Parents get a weekly update from their family service worker and other than that they can email with questions and they will get back with them when they can. Conferences are usely scheduled monthly and are done either on campus or over the phone. If they have a conference other than that there is usually a problem.

That never happened at my facility.  Also phonecalls between residents and family were monitored.


Quote
What would be considered being manipulative? If they have complaints about how they're being treated are they allowed to discuss those with [the parent]?  What is involved in the parent training days?

Manipulative behavior can be anything from "begging" to come home, to telling the parent or person on the phone they are being mistreated in some way.  IF they have complaints, at my facility they were allowed to file a private "Grievance" which the nurse or assistant nurse would view and decide if its something that should be taken care of by administration or not.  

Parent training days was a sarcastic remark used to describe the monotonous activities we used to do when parents would visit.  It would give the illusion that the place is beneficial to kids actually being there.  The kids were never allowed any alone time with their families and counselors were encouraged to eavesdrop and alert admin or a supervisor if a child was trying to be "manipulative".

ALL ABOARD<<< NEXT STOP>>> COUNSELING AND THERAPY

Quote
The bulk of the so called therapy is run by bachelor's degree holding counselors.  The facility psychologist met with the kids maybe 1 time a month for 20 to 30 minutes. This was most of the time to assess the need to increase or decrease medications. Bachelors degrees in any field, and most often very little to no experience working with children. The unit directors and program administrators are recruited from within the ranks of the program staff and work their way up the chain of command from Counselor 1 to Counselor 4(supervisor) and then to Unit Director and up to Program Administrator.


Yes, the same was at my facility.  I, too, am not a licenced psychologist.  One of the main guys who headed up the big facilities was a guy who was retired from the military.  He had a semper fi bumpersticker.  I am pretty sure he wasnt licenced.

So that is my take on alot of things, all in all a big bunch of bullshit.
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Offline Sark

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« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2006, 09:32:22 AM »
This paper presents the results from the first phase of a longitudinal, multi-center study of outcomes in private residential treatment.  It is the first known large-scale attempt at a systematic exploration of client characteristics, treatment outcomes, and discharge predictors in private residential treatment.  The sample of nearly 1000 adolescents, from nine private residential programs, was about equally likely to be male or female, from middle or upper socioeconomic backgrounds and predominately white.  Ninety-five percent had prior treatment and 85% were treated for multiple presenting problems, the most common of which were disruptive behavior, mood, and substance abuse problems.  Parents and adolescents reported significant improvement during treatment on adolescent communication, family relationships, and compliance.  Analyses of variance indicated that both adolescents and parents reported a significant reduction in problems from admission to discharge, on each aggregate measure psycho-social functioning (Total Problems Scores, Internalizing Scales, and Externalizing Scales of the Child Behavior CheckList, CBCL, and Youth Self-Report, YSR) and nearly every syndrome (15 of 16 YSR and CBCL Syndrome scales). Only two out of 22 treatment and non-treatment-related variables (Grade Point Average and Mood Disorder) interacted with outcomes.  Furthermore, in stepwise regression analyses, testing a wide array of treatment and non-treatment variables, only a handful of variables predicted discharge functioning.  Taken together, the analyses suggested that adolescent problems improve significantly during private residential treatment and that, with only a few exceptions, discharge functioning and in-treatment change are relatively similar, regardless of adolescent background, history, problems, and treatment factors.  Implications and research recommendations are presented.

http://http://natsap.org/Behrens.doc
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2006, 09:44:50 AM »
esarks, you didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday, did you? That so-called "study" is a paid advertisement for NATSAP programs. It's about as scientific as a used car dealer's "study" that says he has the best deals in town. I hope you are also aware that NATSAP is just a trade organization -- anyone can join simply by paying the membership dues.

-- A concerned parent
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Offline Sark

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« Reply #125 on: October 13, 2006, 09:58:52 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
esarks, you didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday, did you? That so-called "study" is a paid advertisement for NATSAP programs. It's about as scientific as a used car dealer's "study" that says he has the best deals in town. I hope you are also aware that NATSAP is just a trade organization -- anyone can join simply by paying the membership dues.

-- A concerned parent


I would have referenced your study...but...oh...um...right...you don't have one.

Well...their's is published and this being the free country that it is...is open to scrutiny.
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #126 on: October 13, 2006, 09:59:22 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
or people like DJ and TSW who are neither parents or program victims but just all-knowing assholes who worked at a program many moons ago, got canned and are living the rest of their lives seeking revenge.


I think you've made some factual errors here.  Let me help to straighten you out on the truth (I know the truth is a tough concept for you, but I'll go slow).

- "or people like DJ and TSW who are neither parents or program victims"  

As a young man I was forced into a situation far more abusive, both physically and mentally, than what would later come to be known as "programs."

- "got canned "

Actually "resigned in protest of negligence, neglect and abuse at the hands of uneducated hacks and quacks" is the truth.   I suppose that the un- and under-educated, unlicensed, uncertified counselors with phony degrees from diploma mills are just dandy in your view;this is why you patronize programs.  You're willing to pay top dollar for bottom-of-the-barrel "treatment" provided by folks not qualified to walk my dog.  Whatever it takes to avoid doing the hard work necessary to raise a child in your home, right?

-"but just all-knowing assholes who worked at a program many moons ago"

I worked at two "programs," one of which is the largest and oldest in the country and one that was the "flagship" model for all current NATSAP programs and have continued working with victims of those and similar programs until the present.  By "all-knowing" I suppose you're alluding to the fact that I hold a master's degree in social work and am a licensed therapist.

- "and are living the rest of their lives seeking revenge."

Actually, living a quite normal and successful life with a wonderful wife and family and continuing to this day advocating for abused children and lobbying for reform of a very twisted, crooked and hurtful industry - and working hard through all legal means and avenues to shutter abusive facilities - facilities that continue to exist and make money from marks like you who wouldn't know appropriate care from a hole in the wall.

I hope that clears up your awful misconceptions and sets the record straight on your prevarications about me.

Good luck!
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #127 on: October 13, 2006, 10:11:58 AM »
Quote from: ""esarks""
This paper presents the results from the first phase of a longitudinal, multi-center study of outcomes in private residential treatment.  It is the first known large-scale attempt at a systematic exploration of client characteristics, treatment outcomes, and discharge predictors in private residential treatment.  The sample of nearly 1000 adolescents, from nine private residential programs, was about equally likely to be male or female, from middle or upper socioeconomic backgrounds and predominately white.  Ninety-five percent had prior treatment and 85% were treated for multiple presenting problems, the most common of which were disruptive behavior, mood, and substance abuse problems.  Parents and adolescents reported significant improvement during treatment on adolescent communication, family relationships, and compliance.  Analyses of variance indicated that both adolescents and parents reported a significant reduction in problems from admission to discharge, on each aggregate measure psycho-social functioning (Total Problems Scores, Internalizing Scales, and Externalizing Scales of the Child Behavior CheckList, CBCL, and Youth Self-Report, YSR) and nearly every syndrome (15 of 16 YSR and CBCL Syndrome scales). Only two out of 22 treatment and non-treatment-related variables (Grade Point Average and Mood Disorder) interacted with outcomes.  Furthermore, in stepwise regression analyses, testing a wide array of treatment and non-treatment variables, only a handful of variables predicted discharge functioning.  Taken together, the analyses suggested that adolescent problems improve significantly during private residential treatment and that, with only a few exceptions, discharge functioning and in-treatment change are relatively similar, regardless of adolescent background, history, problems, and treatment factors.  Implications and research recommendations are presented.

http://http://natsap.org/Behrens.doc

So, then, let's begin with the scrutiny, shall we?

Here are the facts about the "study" you quoted and the research of the APA which believes PARENT TRAINING is the effective way to work with "troubled teens":

Thanks to Deb for doing the legwork...

Quote
The study implies that NATSAP programs are "licensed". How many are licensed? Their flagship program, HLA, isn?t and hasn't been since its inception.
This was not an Independent study. One must consider the author?s connections with the industry.

C Smoot employed by AEG and serveral other RTCs.
Smoot and Behrens co-create Evidence Based Consulting.
Behrens Clinical Director for AEG's Youth Care program, Member NATSAP.
Smoots 'partner' with AEGs Youth Care program.
Smoots are 'associates' of Open Sky Wilderness, Member NATSAP.
Behrens creates Canyon Research and Consulting- most of their clients are AEG programs.
Smoot and Behrens pitch EBC to NATSAP.
Dr. Kevin Fenstermacher employed by both EBC and CRC.

Looks more like a concerted effort to shore up the industry?s reputation, and give parents a false sense of security.

Who is Ellen Behrens, lead researcher at Canyon Research & Consulting, Salt Lake City, Utah?

Sept 2005- AEG?s Youth Care in Draper, Utah ?partners? with Evidence Based Consulting (EBC), a group of psychologists. (Only 2 listed- Tracine and Carl Smoot)- committed to fulfilling the National Institute of Mental Health's agenda for the application of evidence-based research in testing, assessment and treatment.
This is how the innovative partnership works: EBC provides testing services for Youth Care students by using up-to-date psychological tests, interpretive strategies, and treatment recommendations that are suggested in the research literature. In collaboration with Youth Care therapists, a strategic treatment plan is developed, utilizing research-based practices and measurements. The additional perspective of EBC psychologists provides the best possible assessments and treatment for Youth Care students.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 5186.shtml

More on Evidence Based Consulting
http://www.evidencebasedconsulting.com/

Behrens, Clinical Dir of Youth Care
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=218094#218094

Smoot?s are ?Associates? of Open Sky Wilderness
Prior to completing his graduate work, Carl was employed in hospital management. He successfully ran two inpatient psychiatry programs and was later a therapist at (AEGs) Youth Care, Inc.
http://www.openskywilderness.com/assoc.htm

Oct 2005- AEG hosts workshop in Utah. One of the guest speakers:
Ellen Behrens, PhD discussed out of home treatment outcome research. She is the co-founder of Evidence Based Consulting. Behrens was the principal investigator for a large, multi-center study on student outcomes in residential treatment.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 5204.shtml

June ?05 Ellen Behrens and Tracine Smoot pitch ?Evidence-based Practice? to NATSAP members.
http://www.natsap.org/Newsletters/NATSA ... letter.pdf

Dr. Kevin Fenstermacher works for both ?Evidence Based Consulting? (Smoots) and ?Canyon Research and Consulting? (Behrens).
http://canyonrc.com/experience.html
http://psychologicalsolutions.info/exec ... 0team.html

Who are CRCs clients? And, who funded this study?
http://canyonrc.com/experience.html
A whole slew of AEG programs.

Under Links at CRCs website one is taken to the APAs Empirically Supported Treatments page. http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_est/index.html
Their recommendations, under Oppositional Disorders:
Because the immediate goal of treatment is to develop parenting skills, the therapist begins by having parents apply new skills to relatively simple problems (e.g., compliance, completion of chores, oppositional behavior). As parents become proficient using the initial techniques, the child's most serious problem behaviors at home and in school are addressed (e.g., fighting, poor school performance, truancy, stealing, firesetting). In most PMT (PARENT Management Training) programs, the therapist maintains close telephone contact with the parents in-between sessions. These contacts are used to encourage parents to ask questions about the home programs, to provide an opportunity for the therapist to prompt compliance with the behavior-change programs and reinforce parents' use of the skills, to strengthen the therapeutic alliance, and to allow the therapist to problem-solve when programs are not modifying child behavior effectively.

II. Summary of Studies Supporting Treatment Efficacy
PMT is one of the most extensively studied therapies for children and has been shown to be effective in decreasing oppositional, aggressive, and antisocial behavior (for reviews of research, see Dumas, 1989; Forehand & Long, 1988; Kazdin, 1985; Miller & Prinz, 1990; Moreland, Schwebel, Beck, & Wells, 1982). Randomized controlled trials have found that PMT is more effective in changing antisocial behavior and promoting prosocial behavior than many other treatments (e.g. relationship, play therapy, family therapies, varied community services) and control conditions (e.g. waiting-list, "attention-placebo"). Follow-up data have shown that gains are maintained from posttreatment to 1 and 3 years after treatment has ended. One research team found that noncompliant children treated by parent training were functioning as well as nonclinic individuals approximately 14 years later (Long, Forehand, Wierson, & Morgan, 1994). The benefits of PMT often generalize to areas that are not focused on directly during therapy. For example, improvements in parental adjustment and functioning, marital satisfaction, and sibling behavior have been found following therapy. Overall, perhaps no other technique has been as carefully documented and empirically supported as PMT in treating conduct problems.
A unique feature of PMT is the abundance of research on child, parent, and family factors that moderate treatment effects. Moreover, PMT, either alone or in combination with other techniques, has been applied with promising effects to other populations including autistic children, mentally retarded children and adolescents, adjudicated delinquents, and parents who physically abuse their children. The principles and procedures on which PMT relies have also been applied in many settings including schools, institutions, community homes, day-care facilities, and facilities for the elderly.
http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_ ... child.html

One must also consider the report presented August 12 at the American Psychological Association Convention by Allison Pinto PhD.
http://apinto.blog.usf.edu/2006/08/21/e ... -treatment


Now, please tell me how the "study" you cited is anything more than a shill-piece for NATSAP.  I'd be delighted to hear your answer.
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Offline Sark

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« Reply #128 on: October 13, 2006, 11:56:47 AM »
DJ... some good reading there.  Will take me a while to go through all of that.

It is a fact that NATSAP presented their study to the APA.  It's not like they are secretly trying to hide something.  Sure they have a financial interest.  Does that discount the findings completely and totally?  I don't think so.  But I would like the APA to take a position on it and debunk it if it's a piece of crap.  That's the appropriate way to discredit it, rather than taking pot shots on a forum like this.

When a pharmaceutical company presents clinical studies to the FDA, they likewise have a financial interest.  It seems to me sometimes this is the way the world works.

Even the APA states there is a place for the residential program in the continuum of care.  Unless I'm missing it, I can't see where they have boldly taken a stand against programs represented by NATSAP.

I do not see a prepondence of evidence that suggests what appears to be a one-sided argument by some here that ALL residential programs are "fucking kids up" in all cases and that NOTHING good has come from them in thirty years.  Nor do I see evidence which would suggest kids coming out of these programs are overwhelmingly and undeniably damaged by them.

I'm not opposed to treatment alternatives.  We sought many.  We were engaged in therapy and still are.  I believe we did and are following the ideals of what I see in PMT.  For us, I believe the residential program is working and producing positive results.
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #129 on: October 13, 2006, 12:54:09 PM »
Quote
When a pharmaceutical company presents clinical studies to the FDA, they likewise have a financial interest. It seems to me sometimes this is the way the world works.



And, of course, if you follow such matters, you will have seen that over the years, including more recently Vioxx, that the drug companies routinely falsify their research and the FDA rubberstamps it anyway.  This is analagous to the NATSAP "study" which, by the way, is not a clinical trial of any kind, but rather a collection of surveys sent to program graduates only that were hand-picked by the facilities represented.  Based on this evidence, I am able to completely discount their findings.

There are plenty of studies by NIH, NIMH, the Surgeon General, et al that DO conclude that BM is, in fact, completely ineffective and that the product of aggregating distressed teens and juvenile delinquents EXACERBATES their problems.  Read the research for yourself.  The results are crystal clear.

On the other hand, after 30 years of so-called "treatment successes" this industry has yet to publish (or even conduct) a SINGLE CLINICAL TRIAL.  This is for a reason.  Results from long-established research is contrindicative of what the industry would like to conclude.  The facts simply do not bear out their claims.  So, instead of actually DOING the clinical trials, they print glossy brochures touting a 98% success rate and a "warranty" on your kid, while offering absolutle zero evidence to support their notions.  

If the absurdity of these claims doesn't hit you dead in the face, your brain has ceased to function and none of this debate matters much anyway...
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Offline Sark

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« Reply #130 on: October 13, 2006, 01:24:55 PM »
Of course this isn't a perfect world and of course pharmaceutical companies will misrepresent sometimes.  That's the point.

This world has more shades to it than black and white.  And if you want to polarize everything so there are no shades of gray - fine for you.

But don't write off other people's judgements as being obviously attributed to their being brain dead.  No, I don't believe (and I obviously don't stand alone) the evidence is so overwhelming.  It just isn't there.  The APA certainly hasn't come out with a statement opposing ALL residential programs.

By the way... just curious.  Do you think Albert Ellis and REBT is ineffective?

Yes, I think there is room to debate the issue both ways.  I think there are some pros and cons.  And in five years, I'm certain my opinion will be swayed one way or the other based on my experience - rather than a clinical study or anecdotal data.  The case study that will mean the most to me is mine.

DJ's post actually caused me to do more reading than any other post.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #131 on: October 13, 2006, 01:53:38 PM »
Quote
For us, I believe this program is working and producing positive results.


Which program?
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Offline Sark

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« Reply #132 on: October 13, 2006, 02:02:15 PM »
Residential
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quot;The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time and retain the ability to function.\"  - F. Scott Fitzgerald

\"We are beings of light, and whatever obscures that light can be examined.\" - Sark

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #133 on: October 13, 2006, 02:03:55 PM »
"Residential" is a bit hard to search for. Could you please be more specific?
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Offline Sark

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« Reply #134 on: October 13, 2006, 02:09:18 PM »
It's the thing we are "debating" about.  The whole NATSAP study and whether these programs are effective or not.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
quot;The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time and retain the ability to function.\"  - F. Scott Fitzgerald

\"We are beings of light, and whatever obscures that light can be examined.\" - Sark