Second Nature Wilderness Program

[Anonymous]

OzGirl-   Receiving an impact letter is not a coerced confession.  The kid reads the letter to the group circle and, in most cases, what the parents have written in the letter presents a vastly different picture than what the kid has claimed up to that point.  Since all the kids, in turn, have been in this position, they know that the version the parents are presenting is a lot closer to the truth than what the kid had claimed-  i.e. "I only smoked pot twice" versus "the kid was dealing and smoking daily and was kicked out of school".
"My parents are jerks and won't let me do what I want" versus "the kid pushed his younger sister so hard that she cut her head".
The kids at Second Nature are allowed to come to their own conclusions and admissions in their own time.  There is no set time and every kid's program is quite individualized.

[Anonymous]

Don’t be discouraged by all the negative posts. Most of the readers here are silent and appreciate your posts, the negative ones are by people trying to run down the industry as a whole and probably know very little about second nature.

are you trying to placate a troll or yourself?

Second Nature is very familiar to me and my family so we know more than 'very little'.


Wait are you John Karan the car salesman who is now Second Nature's admission director.  :rofl:

[Oz girl]

OzGirl-   Receiving an impact letter is not a coerced confession.  The kid reads the letter to the group circle and, in most cases, what the parents have written in the letter presents a vastly different picture than what the kid has claimed up to that point.  Since all the kids, in turn, have been in this position, they know that the version the parents are presenting is a lot closer to the truth than what the kid had claimed-  i.e. "I only smoked pot twice" versus "the kid was dealing and smoking daily and was kicked out of school".
"My parents are jerks and won't let me do what I want" versus "the kid pushed his younger sister so hard that she cut her head".
The kids at Second Nature are allowed to come to their own conclusions and admissions in their own time.  There is no set time and every kid's program is quite individualized.

Here is the thing though. In the occasional case that it is the parent who is a sociopath it is their word against the kid's. This letter can potentially be used against the kid by those who have a financial interest in imprisoning the child. So on that level it is unjust and the kid is afforded less rights than a criminal. Moreover in many cases there have been incidences of the school sending back an impact letter that it deems too soft. How can this not be considered manipulative?
I also wonder how therapeutic any adult would find it to have to read a letter about all of the ways they had disappointed loved ones to a roomful of aquaintances? because from where I sit it seems pretty humiliating. I could even understand in the case of delinquent behavior if the impact letter was private and read only by the child. This would possibly be a useful way of pointing out the effect their behaviour has on their loved ones.
I also wonder why it is necessary in the case of mentally ill or depressed kids. If it is about healing not punishment then they should not be made to feel ashamed?

[TheWho]

Don’t be discouraged by all the negative posts. Most of the readers here are silent and appreciate your posts, the negative ones are by people trying to run down the industry as a whole and probably know very little about second nature.

are you trying to placate a troll or yourself?

There was a guest who was telling their story of their childs time spent in Second Nature.  The child did very well and since it was a positive post about a program the author was receiving many negative comments in response.
Thewho was just letting the poster know that there were many people reading here, that dont post, that appreciate his/her story and not to be discouraged by the few negative posts.

[Anonymous]

OzGirl-  I'm sure there is an occasional case where the parent is a sociopath.  There are also cases where the KID is one.  
The staff works with the parents on how to prepare the impact letter, but the content is not controlled.  The purpose of the letter is to be objective, but to lay out all the harm that has been done to the family, the community and the teen himself.  The teen gets to digest it before reading it in group.  It is actually an effective therapeutic process.  The teen is free to disagree with what the parents are saying and explain any misperceptions.  This opens dialogue between the teen and the parents, which is mediated, in a sense, by the therapist.  The therapists spend a lot of time talking to the parents and helping them understand their role in the issues.  Therapy at home for the parents and remaining family members is recommended.  No one ever says the issues are all about the teen.
Families that don't care about their kids don't put this kind of investment into them.  This is not an easy process for the parents and is certainly not cheap.  It is absolutely not a matter of sending the kid off and forgetting about them.  Every waking moment is spent worrying, praying and working on issues at home so that the family can be healed and the teen can be successful.  
As I said, I have had contact with at least 50 Second Nature families and there is 100% praise for the program.  
As Who points out, there are bad programs out there, so why mess with one that is good?

[Troll Control]

Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program supporter means nothing.  Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is effective at healing psychosis or sociopathy.  Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit shill...

Post the clinical trials that prove what you're saying or shut up.

[Nihilanthic]

OzGirl-   Receiving an impact letter is not a coerced confession.  

Are they allowed to defend themselves, or simply not read it? Someone else's accusations you're forced to read out loud is definitely a fucking coerced confession if you can't contradict it and you're forced to read it, unless you lack English comprehension skills!

The kid reads the letter to the group circle and, in most cases, what the parents have written in the letter presents a vastly different picture than what the kid has claimed up to that point.  

So you mean they've been coerced through similar experiences to join in the group vs the newcomer dynamic to break them down so they themselves, i.e. the old comers can get out?

Since all the kids, in turn, have been in this position, they know that the version the parents are presenting is a lot closer to the truth than what the kid had claimed-  i.e. "I only smoked pot twice" versus "the kid was dealing and smoking daily and was kicked out of school".

Again, according to who? The person who wrote that letter, after begin coached and prompted by the program, and having other manipulated teenagers 'reinforce' the 'impact' to the poor newcomer reading it out loud... yeah, thats totally not about making the kid feel shitty so you can break them down better, not at all!

"My parents are jerks and won't let me do what I want" versus "the kid pushed his younger sister so hard that she cut her head".

So all of them who don't like their parents are violent towards their sisters? You DO know a truly violent kid would end up killing at least one staffer, right? These two-bit programs with seminar-trained staff are not equipped at all, or at best ill-equipped to deal with someone truly violent. I'd love to see them take a gang into the woods..

The kids at Second Nature are allowed to come to their own conclusions and admissions in their own time.  There is no set time and every kid's program is quite individualized.

You mean they last at least 30-60-90-G64 days and then how many ever after it takes to walk the walk talk the talk and act like an apologetic brainwashed little stepford child?



You really must think we're idiots. This is obviously a case of making them feel the parents are against them by proxy, NOT letting them defend themselves against the accusations made, forced confession before a group, and group confrontation, alone, by yourself, out in the woods, filthy miserable and eating shitty food, depending on the people who hurt you for food water shelter and hygiene.

Yeah, thats totally therapeutic.

[TheWho]

OzGirl-  I'm sure there is an occasional case where the parent is a sociopath.  There are also cases where the KID is one.  
The staff works with the parents on how to prepare the impact letter, but the content is not controlled.  The purpose of the letter is to be objective, but to lay out all the harm that has been done to the family, the community and the teen himself.  The teen gets to digest it before reading it in group.  It is actually an effective therapeutic process.  The teen is free to disagree with what the parents are saying and explain any misperceptions.  This opens dialogue between the teen and the parents, which is mediated, in a sense, by the therapist.  The therapists spend a lot of time talking to the parents and helping them understand their role in the issues.  Therapy at home for the parents and remaining family members is recommended.  No one ever says the issues are all about the teen.
Families that don't care about their kids don't put this kind of investment into them.  This is not an easy process for the parents and is certainly not cheap.  It is absolutely not a matter of sending the kid off and forgetting about them.  Every waking moment is spent worrying, praying and working on issues at home so that the family can be healed and the teen can be successful.  
As I said, I have had contact with at least 50 Second Nature families and there is 100% praise for the program.  
As Who points out, there are bad programs out there, so why mess with one that is good?

Nicely said

[Nihilanthic]

OzGirl-  I'm sure there is an occasional case where the parent is a sociopath.  There are also cases where the KID is one.  
The staff works with the parents on how to prepare the impact letter, but the content is not controlled.  The purpose of the letter is to be objective, but to lay out all the harm that has been done to the family, the community and the teen himself.  The teen gets to digest it before reading it in group.  It is actually an effective therapeutic process.  The teen is free to disagree with what the parents are saying and explain any misperceptions.  This opens dialogue between the teen and the parents, which is mediated, in a sense, by the therapist.  The therapists spend a lot of time talking to the parents and helping them understand their role in the issues.  Therapy at home for the parents and remaining family members is recommended.  No one ever says the issues are all about the teen.
Families that don't care about their kids don't put this kind of investment into them.  This is not an easy process for the parents and is certainly not cheap.  It is absolutely not a matter of sending the kid off and forgetting about them.  Every waking moment is spent worrying, praying and working on issues at home so that the family can be healed and the teen can be successful.  
As I said, I have had contact with at least 50 Second Nature families and there is 100% praise for the program.  
As Who points out, there are bad programs out there, so why mess with one that is good?

Nicely said

"IMPACT" LETTERS ARE OBVIOUSLY A WAY TO EMOTIONALLY ATTACK THE CHILD FORCED TO READ THEM.

THEY ARE NOT THERAPY.

THIS PROGRAM HAS BEEN DEBUNKED TO HELL PREVIOUSLY.

LETS DIG UP THE OLD THREADS  :roll: TIME FOR THREAD NECROMANCERY!

[Anonymous]

You really must think we're idiots.

It's obvious to anyone who reads your posts.

[Anonymous]

OzGirl-  I'm sure there is an occasional case where the parent is a sociopath.  There are also cases where the KID is one.  
The staff works with the parents on how to prepare the impact letter, but the content is not controlled.  The purpose of the letter is to be objective, but to lay out all the harm that has been done to the family, the community and the teen himself.  The teen gets to digest it before reading it in group.  It is actually an effective therapeutic process.  The teen is free to disagree with what the parents are saying and explain any misperceptions.  This opens dialogue between the teen and the parents, which is mediated, in a sense, by the therapist.  The therapists spend a lot of time talking to the parents and helping them understand their role in the issues.  Therapy at home for the parents and remaining family members is recommended.  No one ever says the issues are all about the teen.
Families that don't care about their kids don't put this kind of investment into them.  This is not an easy process for the parents and is certainly not cheap.  It is absolutely not a matter of sending the kid off and forgetting about them.  Every waking moment is spent worrying, praying and working on issues at home so that the family can be healed and the teen can be successful.  
As I said, I have had contact with at least 50 Second Nature families and there is 100% praise for the program.  
As Who points out, there are bad programs out there, so why mess with one that is good?

"Sociopaths" are defined as people who don't have concsouses. If any kid truly was a sociopath, not only would these "inducing guilt" cult tricks, not work, they'd encourage sociopathic behavior as sociopaths supposedly revel in hurting people.

Also, lables like sociopath are glib ways of dismissing people who participate in behaviors outside of the social contract, not immoral behavior (no one thinks reagan's a sociopath for torturing women and children in order to hurt the sandinistas or bombing peaceful south american countries that fairly elected a socialist leader)

Of course, we're missing the obvious, that any parent who has their kid abducted and force marched throught the wilderness because their kid "lies, takes drugs, and is disrespectful" is pretty sociopathic

[Lain the Odd]

"IMPACT" LETTERS ARE OBVIOUSLY A WAY TO EMOTIONALLY ATTACK THE CHILD FORCED TO READ THEM.

THEY ARE NOT THERAPY.

THIS PROGRAM HAS BEEN DEBUNKED TO HELL PREVIOUSLY.

LETS DIG UP THE OLD THREADS  :roll: TIME FOR THREAD NECROMANCERY!

The word, I believe, is 'necromancy'.

As a survivor, though, I'll go ahead and point out that these were about the furthest from 'therapy' you could get. They were their way of breaking you down via forced confession like any other - it didn't matter if things were exaggerated or outright bullshit, you were forced to agree with them and 'read them neutrally'. It was a start to the system of regression used as 'help' by so many programs to fuck with kids' heads severely.. and the short form of it is that whatever anecdotes from marketers may abound, Second Nature has been debunked repeatedly and has no value as therapy or anything else. For anyone.

[Anonymous]

It serves the purpose of giving parents a break from their difficult duty of managing their troubled teens lives for them. The myth of innocence among program students is greatly exaggerated.

[Lain the Odd]

not really. I'd list off the kids I knew well through these and what they did to 'deserve' it, but you know as well as I do that that's not true.

[Anonymous]

It's not a matter of "deserving" it.  It's a matter of trying to help the teen, and wilderness programs DO help a lot.  It's another matter to keep the lessons going after the program, however.  
The above poster is obviously one of the dissatisfied customers- in the minority by a long ways.  
Agree that the myth of innocent program attendees is just that- a myth. Kids that make it to wilderness are really struggling with some serious issues and need a "time out" from their life at home to figure it all out.  They are not sociopaths (some might be) and they are not being punished- they are simply being given the opportunity to turn things around for themselves with some excellent professional help.