Author Topic: Why don't WE make a program?  (Read 22279 times)

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Offline TheWho

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2006, 07:08:00 PM »
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Might feel differently if you crashed off the side of the road because of your faulty tire, all the while driving full speed trusting the shop didn't sell you a worn out tire intstead of a new one.


Sure, someone knowingly tries to put you in an unsafe position.  Not much you can do.
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Offline Anonymous

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #136 on: March 08, 2006, 07:37:00 PM »
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On 2006-03-08 15:53:00, TheWho wrote:

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How about if the tire they sold you blew out ten miles down the road? That's how most of us feel about these programs.



Well, your right that does happen, even your best brands have a failure rate.  At least you are ten miles further down the road and hopefully no worse off.  But you are out a few bucks which you will never see again.

"


That's such a poor analogy.  Hopefully no worse off?  It's your child we're talking about, NOT a tire.  I know you're just trying to illustrate a point, but that's a poor choice.  But anyway, would you buy a tire that has an inordinately high chance of blowing out doing 80 down the highway?
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Offline Anonymous

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #137 on: March 08, 2006, 07:42:00 PM »
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On 2006-03-08 15:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The program parents I met are not what I would consider to be "easy marks".  Most of them are very successful and discerning professionals who are used to analyzing all the options and making informed choices.  The choice of an emotional growth program was not made in haste or without thorough investigation.  This is a large expense and involves the most important thing in your life- your child.  I can assure you that these parents-at least the ones I met through the 2 programs my kid attended- are on top of things.  If a program is totally deceitful, it's a different story, but that was not the case with these 2 places.



Is it normal teen behavior to steal from the family or parents of friends?  Maybe we parents have a different tolerance level, but I can assure you that my kid agrees that his behavior was not within the bounds of acceptable."


I know you guys think you're insulated from this because of you education or background but very often those are the people that fall for it the easiest.  My father is a prime example.  Without a doubt one of the most brilliant men I know yet completely clueless regarding this issue.

One of the articles about the boot camp death explains it perfectly, I'll try and find it but it basically says that this appeals to both liberals and conservatives.  The conservatives seem to like the tough-love/get tough on crime stuff to a disturbing degree and the idea of an 'alternative solution' appeals to the libs.  Personally I put the libs in the 'intellectual' group.  The one's that really, truly and wholeheartedly believe that they're doing the right thing.  That makes them more dangerous than the damn neo-cons.
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Offline TheWho

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #138 on: March 08, 2006, 07:49:00 PM »
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That's such a poor analogy. Hopefully no worse off? It's your child we're talking about, NOT a tire. I know you're just trying to illustrate a point, but that's a poor choice. But anyway, would you buy a tire that has an inordinately high chance of blowing out doing 80 down the highway?


Yea, I know, I thought the same after I posted, probably could have demonstrated my point differently, but anyway, there it is.  

I would try to get the best tire available to me.
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Offline Anonymous

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #139 on: March 08, 2006, 07:54:00 PM »
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On 2006-03-08 16:49:00, TheWho wrote:

"
Quote
That's such a poor analogy. Hopefully no worse off? It's your child we're talking about, NOT a tire. I know you're just trying to illustrate a point, but that's a poor choice. But anyway, would you buy a tire that has an inordinately high chance of blowing out doing 80 down the highway?



Yea, I know, I thought the same after I posted, probably could have demonstrated my point differently, but anyway, there it is.  



I would try to get the best tire available to me.

"


Let's use an airbag analogy.  Cars have airbags to protect people.  What if it was there were numerous, credible, continually mounting reports that airbags actually increased the risk of death and that going with just the old fashioned seat belts and no air cushion was actually safer?



no I'm not saying that airbags aren't helpful, well except for kids but just to use a more appropriate illustration.
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Offline Anonymous

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #140 on: March 08, 2006, 08:11:00 PM »
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On 2006-03-08 16:42:00, Anonymous wrote:


One of the articles about the boot camp death explains it perfectly, I'll try and find it but it basically says that this appeals to both liberals and conservatives.


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13883103.htm

Boot camps for kids should be given the boot

BY FRED GRIMM fgrimm@MiamiHerald.com


Failure doesn't matter.

We've known for years that a kid like Martin Lee Anderson, if he had survived his six-month lock-up at the Bay County boot camp, was more likely than not to get into more trouble.

Depending on the study, from 64 to 75 percent of the kids graduating from boot camp lock-ups are re-arrested within a year.


Boot camps are failed concepts.

If the survival of these uber-tough military-style detention programs had depended on actual performance, the Bay County boot camp would have been shuttered long before young Anderson was busted for joy riding in his granny's car.

He collapsed and died on Jan. 6 after a few horrific hours at the camp. At least he won't be around to add to its abysmal recidivism rate.

If not for Martin's death, no one would be talking about Florida's boot camps. A brutal beating and a dead 14-year-old gets attention. A program's long-term failure to rehab three-fourths of its inmates doesn't matter.

Failure simply isn't a deal breaker when it comes to crime-fighting programs. We pay $40 billion to $50 billion a year to sustain our decades-long War on Drugs.

Meanwhile, the street price of coke, the most reliable market indicator of our success in limiting supply, has dropped from $500 a gram in the early 1980s to less than $170. In 2004, we spent $5 billion spraying herbicide on Latin American cocoa leaves. Production went up.

But failure has no bearing on the political popularity of anti-crime programs. No one would dare redirect those billions into softy concepts that lack military terminology or get-tough promises.

WASTE OF TIME

''Why do we still have the DARE [Drug Abuse Resistence Education] program in schools after 20 years when everybody knows it's a waste of time and money?'' asked Aaron McNeece, dean of the Florida State University College of Social Work. It was a rhetorical question. McNeece knows that symbolic solutions to crime count more than results. The DARE program, putting uniformed police officers in classrooms to warn against drugs, has been an especially resilient failure.
In 2001 the U.S. Surgeon General reported that studies of the DARE program ``consistently show little or no deterrent effects on substance use.''
The next year, National Academy of Sciences slammed DARE. The GAO reported ``no significant differences in illicit drug use between students who received DARE and students who did not.''
Three-strikes-and-you're-out may be a popular sentencing regime among politicians. Three strikes against DARE didn't matter.
Boot camps evolved from Scared Straight, the original shock-the-kids program based on the assumption that taking children on tours of jails would scare them into lawful behavior. Scared Straight didn't work. Failure didn't matter. It just inspired the next step in shock therapy.

WIDE APPEAL

''Boot camps appealed to everybody,'' said Jeanne B. Stinchcomb, a professor of criminology and criminal justice at Florida Atlantic University. She published a paper last year in the Journal of Offender Rehabilitation, entitled, tellingly, From Optimistic Policies to Pessimistic Outcomes: Why Won't Boot Camps either Succeed Pragmatically or Succumb Politically?

She said conservatives liked the get-tough image. Liberals liked an alternative to prison. Boot camps were cheap to operate. The idea simply had too many powerful stakeholders for failure to matter.

And the public, Stinchcomb said, embraced boot camps with an ''intuitive faith'' that this was the quick fix for juvenile crime. Everyone loved the images of ''little urban wretches'' marching around like soldiers.

Oh, how we love to combat crime with military metaphors. Unless some brave political leader declares a War on Useless Policies, the failures just won't matter.
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Offline TheWho

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #141 on: March 08, 2006, 08:35:00 PM »
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Let's use an airbag analogy. Cars have airbags to protect people. What if it was there were numerous, credible, continually mounting reports that airbags actually increased the risk of death and that going with just the old fashioned seat belts and no air cushion was actually safer?



no I'm not saying that airbags aren't helpful, well except for kids but just to use a more appropriate illustration.


Although, I have no experience in airbags, I accept the data and studies which support that the old fashion seatbelts are safer, but they continue to not work for our family for some reason.  We crash and someone gets hurt, we have retrained the driver, cut out the ?back seat? driving, turned down the radio but we continue to crash and the belts are not working for us and we realize we cannot continue like this because our family spends half the time at the hospital getting fixed-up.  We never get time to function as a family because one of us is always in recovery from the last accident and one individual needs all the focus instead of the family as a whole.  
We have spoken to friends who have airbags and they seem to be doing fine, had a few accidents but their family unit seems to be unaffected, thriving and feel safer etc.  Although, I have read the reports on airbags, I know it is a matter of time before someone gets hurt beyond repair if we do nothing so I would decide to have the best airbags available installed in our car as a last available option before our family disintegrated.
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Offline TheWho

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #142 on: March 08, 2006, 08:56:00 PM »
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Boot camps are failed concepts.


If the survival of these uber-tough military-style detention programs had depended on actual performance, the Bay County boot camp would have been shuttered long before young Anderson was busted for joy riding in his granny's car.


I agree, I dont think I would want my kid in the places you described.
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Offline Anonymous

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #143 on: March 08, 2006, 09:37:00 PM »
The phrase 'so close, yet so far away' fits you pretty well.  I like you in spite of myself.  I think you're genuinely a decent man who is really trying to figure things out and do the right thing.  But you're not seeing the bigger picture.  

I understand that parents are scared.  I believe they have reason to be scared but not to the degree or for all of the same reasons as you.  The difference between kids t'day (nod to Eudora) and our generation and the ones before that is that, IMO, kids now are more blatant and visible about their rebellion.  I don't mean to go all political here but it's really unavoidable if you want to get down to the nuts and bolts of the issue.  Media and politics has shaped how people view society, kids, crime, drugs etc.  Early on when this whole messy business started (early 70s) times were changing, fast.  Nixon and Co., IMO, started this whole 'get tough' policy snowball be it kids, crime, drugs etc.  Couple that with increasing media and communication, kids being outwardly defiant (we all were, we were just more subtle about it) and that's a powerful, explosive mixture.  The culture has gotten so woven into so many different areas and it felt[/b] so good (see above quoted article, it applies to the mentality of all behavior mods) that hardly anyone was taking a serious look at what the ramifications might be.  A few brave souls tried but ended up losing jobs, family and more due to the powers-that-be that had discovered how useful these tools were in drumming up support for their candidate, or upping their status in the community made it absolutely impossible to be heard above the self-congratulations and rhetoric.

This has conversely created more problems and the kids are the ones who are suffering.  Kids are raised today with all this false information in an effort to 'prepare' them for the 'dangers they're going to face out there'.  Just as I believe AA creates a self-fulfilling prophecy I believe this does as well.  Its' just become so accepted and widespread that it's hardly noticed.  The societal culture sets parents AND kids up from the beginning.  Watch out!  Here's the latest and most dangerous drug!!  News at 11, how to protect your kids from ~~insert boogeyman here~~.  If elected I promise to get tough on juvenile crime.  If elected I promise alternatives to jail for youthful offenders.  It's mostly smoke and mirrors and it comes from both ends of the political spectrum but the Repubs seem to be especially adept at expoiting it.

The Who, I really hope you'll read Maia's book.  I'd like to hear your thoughts.  I think there may be hope for you.  You stick around this nuthouse, dish it out and take it with the best of us and most importantly like I said earlier, I think at heart you're a decent man.  

Help At Any Cost explains this much better than I could.  Did I mention that I want you to read it?  :lol:
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Offline Anonymous

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #144 on: March 08, 2006, 09:45:00 PM »
I think The Who is a woman.
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Offline Anonymous

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #145 on: March 08, 2006, 09:47:00 PM »
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On 2006-03-08 18:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I think The Who is a woman.  "


Oh, my bad. Sorry

I think my point is that I'd rather fix what's really wrong instead of perpetuating old problems.  That's a big fish to fry though.  That's changing the way a helluva lot of people have been trained and conditioned to think.
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Offline Anonymous

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #146 on: March 08, 2006, 09:54:00 PM »
http://www.montanaacademy.com/public_success.asp

For those of you who are always asking for statistics and success rates, here is some information from one excellent program.
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Offline Anonymous

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #147 on: March 08, 2006, 09:58:00 PM »
What is that a study?  Based on what?  Telephone surveys?  

Come on!  ::noway::
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Offline try another castle

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Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #148 on: March 08, 2006, 10:29:00 PM »
Okay, here's my idea.

Prototype program for "Castle's Home for Wayward Youth."

You send your kid to me, with a bundle of money. I give the money to the kid, give them a bunch of maps, tourist booklets, foreign-language dictionaries, some matching luggage, a list of youth hostels, tell them to "have fun", and pack them off to Europe for a year. (With a mandatory one month course of study in Amsterdam.)

How does that sound?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #149 on: March 08, 2006, 10:31:00 PM »
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On 2006-03-08 19:29:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:

"Okay, here's my idea.



Prototype program for "Castle's Home for Wayward Youth."



You send your kid to me, with a bundle of money. I give the money to the kid, give them a bunch of maps, tourist booklets, foreign-language dictionaries, some matching luggage, a list of youth hostels, tell them to "have fun", and pack them off to Europe for a year. (With a mandatory one month course of study in Amsterdam.)



How does that sound?
"



On the nosie!!  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:
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