Author Topic: Why don't WE make a program?  (Read 22931 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2006, 02:13:00 PM »
Quote
Heard of PURE ?

No I haven?t but that is a good point.  A watch dog group would really benefit others (parents and kids) and eventually persuade some of the schools to change and/or soften.  Feedback from previous students/inmates could be used to create an ideal and programs could be rated against this ideal, receiving an A ?thru- F in different categories.

Is this how you see it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2006, 04:30:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-03-06 11:13:00, TheWho wrote:

"
Quote
Heard of PURE ?

No I haven?t but that is a good point.  A watch dog group would really benefit others (parents and kids) and eventually persuade some of the schools to change and/or soften.  Feedback from previous students/inmates could be used to create an ideal and programs could be rated against this ideal, receiving an A ?thru- F in different categories.



Is this how you see it?

"

"PURE" is just another referral business ran by Sue Scheff, ex-wwaspy and child-pimp extraordinaire! Her kid was put in wwasps, she bought into it hook, line and sinker, and then realized her kid was abused!

So, pulled the kid out, and siad 'OH WELL FIND GOOD "HEALING" programs' but ended up just referring kids to.. wherever, including "whitmore" in Utah.

Well, Whitmore had a psychotic mormon psycho there who molested and beat the children in her care, and Joyce Harris, aka wonderwoman shows up to tell us whats going on and beat the DA with a verbal bullwhip to make him do his job and not just let it pass unpunished.

So, no, PURE is no watchdog, its a fox watching the henhouse. And, self regulation is NO replacement for proper regulation by an outside body. If programs simply did what they "FELT" is best then youd get more of the usual program "we feel we should do this so we will" bullshit.

FACTUAL, evidential based regulation by medical professionals for actual treatment centers is all Id accept. And, well, programs and treatment centers arent really the same thing, as you should know by now!

Quote
Feedback from previous students/inmates could be used to create an ideal and programs could be rated against this ideal, receiving an A ?thru- F in different categories.


I figured I had to address this specifically...
Thats what we call bullshit, TW. You dont use feedback from students who are being manipulated by programs to make better programs! Even if somehow you could remove the programs bullshit from them and they spoke freely, youd just be setting up another structured teen warehouse with behavior modification elements. BM IS NOT THERAPY! MIND CONTROL AND BRAINWASHING IS NOT THERAPY! NEITHER ARE LGATS, SGATS, WORKSHOPS SEMINARS LIFESTEPS PROPHEETS OR RAPS!

A place with therapy, a school, and boarding facilities is the only thing we would accept, not a locked down enclave with culty bullshit, get it?[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2006-03-06 13:33 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2006, 04:34:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-03-06 13:30:00, Nihilanthic wrote:


So, no, PURE is no watchdog, its a fox watching the henhouse.


Yes, Sue followed the time honored program tradition of promising a "kinder, gentler" school, RTC, Behavior Mod or whatever euphemism they attach to it.  Come to find out she's just another in a long line of supposed 'saviors' that just take the almighty $$$$ and refer to programs that pay.  Even when Whitmore owners were under indictment for abuse she continuted to refer there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2006, 04:38:00 PM »
Quote
That's not entirely true, and a sad fact about these places. Some do find medical staff to sign on to a harmful program, giving them appearable credibility.

Take Provo Canyon for instance. If you check out their staff page and you will see how many capital letters after names there are. They are also accredited by several organizations. My adolescent psychiatrist referred me there, about as professional as one can get. He just didn't know, he had never been there, they just mailed him brochures to keep around. Somehow the idea of going to an 'RTC' came up during my treatment, and that was the only brochure he had left. So the cookie crumbles.


I once saw a therapst (Back when people thought I was A.S :rofl: ) who had a former client end up at CEDU when he asked me what I did and I showed him my askquestions article. He read it all, and then told me rather solemnly that he had to reconcile what the kid told him with the facts I presented. He did then tell me that the former client said he "didnt like the way they did things" and wanted to go back to change them.

Well, all of that fell through the floor when I found out CEDU had closed down due to poor enrollment :tup: and I got to gloat about it to my therapist. He did say when he met with his colleagues hed share this... so, maybe I planted a seed of dissent and criticism here in NC. Maybe not.

My point is they WILL listen, but you have to present FACTS.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2006, 04:47:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-03-06 13:30:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-03-06 11:13:00, TheWho wrote:



"
Quote
Heard of PURE ?



No I haven?t but that is a good point.  A watch dog group would really benefit others (parents and kids) and eventually persuade some of the schools to change and/or soften.  Feedback from previous students/inmates could be used to create an ideal and programs could be rated against this ideal, receiving an A ?thru- F in different categories.







Is this how you see it?



"




"PURE" is just another referral business ran by Sue Scheff, ex-wwaspy and child-pimp extraordinaire! Her kid was put in wwasps, she bought into it hook, line and sinker, and then realized her kid was abused!



So, pulled the kid out, and siad 'OH WELL FIND GOOD "HEALING" programs' but ended up just referring kids to.. wherever, including "whitmore" in Utah.



Well, Whitmore had a psychotic mormon psycho there who molested and beat the children in her care, and Joyce Harris, aka wonderwoman shows up to tell us whats going on and beat the DA with a verbal bullwhip to make him do his job and not just let it pass unpunished.



So, no, PURE is no watchdog, its a fox watching the henhouse. And, self regulation is NO replacement for proper regulation by an outside body. If programs simply did what they "FELT" is best then youd get more of the usual program "we feel we should do this so we will" bullshit.



FACTUAL, evidential based regulation by medical professionals for actual treatment centers is all Id accept. And, well, programs and treatment centers arent really the same thing, as you should know by now!



Quote
Feedback from previous students/inmates could be used to create an ideal and programs could be rated against this ideal, receiving an A ?thru- F in different categories.



I figured I had to address this specifically...

Thats what we call bullshit, TW. You dont use feedback from students who are being manipulated by programs to make better programs! Even if somehow you could remove the programs bullshit from them and they spoke freely, youd just be setting up another structured teen warehouse with behavior modification elements. BM IS NOT THERAPY! MIND CONTROL AND BRAINWASHING IS NOT THERAPY! NEITHER ARE LGATS, SGATS, WORKSHOPS SEMINARS LIFESTEPS PROPHEETS OR RAPS!



A place with therapy, a school, and boarding facilities is the only thing we would accept, not a locked down enclave with culty bullshit, get it?[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2006-03-06 13:33 ]"


I think they were refering to a watch dog organization, rating schools, not biulding one, feedback from kids would help.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2006, 04:48:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-03-06 05:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

"My kid is 19 and heading for college. He has no reason to lie to me about anything treatment-related. Perhaps Carlbrook has changed the model enough that they aren't "mind-fucks", as you call them. Perhaps they are valuable tools for the kids.  I'm just telling you what my anti-therapy, anti-program kid, who is very assertive and NOT easily influenced by anyone, has to say.

As for isolation- I will agree that many of the distractions of the outside world were removed. There was some access to newspapers and news, but not a whole lot.  There were some trips into "town" for dinner, movies, medical appointments.  

This place was not a jail. My son was bent out of shape because he didn't have internet access or a cell phone.  One of the benefits of going to wilderness first is that you learn that you don't really need those things.

If you recall, my position is that wilderness (at least the program my son attended) is an incredible and necessary therapeutic intervention. When Carlbrook sends kids back to wilderness it is to allow them to work on specific issues which prevented them from remaining in the community.

Karen"


What a load! You did nothing but regurgitate the typical program boilerplate, but say nothing of any substance - you did however use a lot of feelings based words!

"He liked the workshops I can't answer your specific questions about them." <- you said it all, Karen, you really have. All you know are feelings but dont have so much as a single FACT About anything.

You denigrate any complaints by making a strawman about how he was 'bent out of shape having no internet or cellphone' without addressing what we had to say, AND you dont give a reason why he shouldnt have either. As much money as a RTC costs, why cant he have those relatively cheap means of communication?

Quote
If you recall, my position is that wilderness (at least the program my son attended) is an incredible and necessary therapeutic intervention. When Carlbrook sends kids back to wilderness it is to allow them to work on specific issues which prevented them from remaining in the community.

There you go, more feelings based bullshit with no facts. Wat does wilderness do, and how does it do it? How do you work on 'specific issues' (is there any other way to work on anything? How does a wilderness thing let you do that?

Why is it 'incredible' and 'necessary'? Do you just like saying those stupid feelings words?

Based on the SPECIFIC things Ive heard from people with facts and details, its nothing more than a punishment for not walking the line.

And, well, finally:
Quote
Perhaps Carlbrook has changed the model enough that they aren't "mind-fucks", as you call them. Perhaps they are valuable tools for the kids. I'm just telling you what my anti-therapy, anti-program kid, who is very assertive and NOT easily influenced by anyone, has to say.


You say perhaps a lot. Youre telling us what you want it to be, or what you want it to be for the sake of arguement, but not what it IS!

Have *YOU* been through any seminars or workshops? You sure sound like it!

How would you know if they changed the model enough? Changing isnt good enough, the bullshit has to be TOTALLY removed for it to be ok!

Anti-therapy, anti-program kid... so why did you throw him in a program? How do you know hes one? You say hes 'assertive and not easily influenced' (there we go with more buzzwords like assertive...) yet we've said from the very beginning that programs are designed to break people down and remold their minds. So, whats the point of saying that? Just trying to make yourself feel better?

Programs can break down the toughest individuals and make them say what they want you to:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm
http://nospank.net/bean.htm
http://nospank.net/lile.htm

Even the trained psychologists sitting through a seminar in the first link admitted they were influenced by it, no matter how hard they tried to remain as observors. TRAINED PSYCHOLOGISTS got shook up by it, an uninformed child is easy prey.

Karen, go get off the feelings boat and learn how to use facts again. The age of reason started centuries ago, you're a little late to the party.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2006, 04:50:00 PM »
Quote
I think they were refering to a watch dog organization, rating schools, not biulding one, feedback from kids would help.


Sure, feedback would be great AFTER you remove all of the bullshit that might inflence what they have to say, all the isolation from the outside world, all the LGAT seminars of all names and sizes, and all the mind control elements and stupid 'structure' and rules.

Basically, when its a boarding school with therapy that only tkaes the few children that NEED it, and tell the hypocondriac, drama-queen or abandoning parents to take a hike, you can use feedback from kids to improve it. But not while they could get punished for complaining about a specific staffer, BY that staffer, or thrown in OP or a seminar or the "wilderness" for not 'working the program' by complaining about it, its a waste of time.

PS - dont quote LONG posts to make a one line statement, please?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Goodtobefree

  • Posts: 68
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2006, 04:59:00 PM »
I'll second that one Niles.  My current shrink and the one I saw before I got sent to ASR have responded similarly.  The one who I saw before ASR was somewhat reluctant to accept my story, since it was all new information.  However, as soon as I found some common ground, this changed dramatically.  He didn't know what a Lifestep was, but when I detailed their similarities to the LGAT's that were developed by Werner Erhard, he was able to look at ASR objectively, and acknowledge that their practices WERE harmful.  My current shrink was much more receptive, and actually had more information on the topic than I did, such as where the ideas for LGAT's and some of the types of therapy used in these facilities.  In turn, as I explained in more and more detail, just what I'd been put through, he started to spread the word to his colleagues.  I can't say how effective it will be, but at the very least, a handful of mental health professionals will be informed of just what sorts of treatment are prevalent in these facilities, and hopefully they will in turn spread the word to others.  At least I know that I've been successful in educating a handful of mental health professionals, and at least none of THEIR patients will be referred to these places.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
cademy at Swift River 2001-2002, Peer Group 17
Freedom is the most precious thing we have.  Those who would take it from their fellow man deserve not mercy or compassion, only pain and suffering.

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2006, 07:40:00 PM »
Some of us help specific kids, regularly, *and* criticize bad "help" that isn't here on Fornits.

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men (and women) to do nothing.

Every time I talk to a parent about *not* using a Program, I recommend that they get their kid good, situation-appropriate, *reputable* help for their kid's problems.

That is doing a positive thing for those kids.  It's getting them help that has a good track record for actually helping *without* the taint of a bunch of survivors alleging abuse.

Part of the reason I find these abuse allegations so easy to believe is that they are so reminiscent of the documented abuses that took place in mental hospitals for adults before the courts ruled that mental patients had to be provided treatment in the least restrictive environment.

When people can't leave a facility, you get a lot of these kinds of abuses--it's a facet of human nature amply demonstrated in the Stanford Prison Experiments.

"Power corrupts.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton

Once they ensured that prisoners and mental patients could not have their mail stopped---except for very short periods (usually less than a month) for mental patients if their psychiatrist felt certain correspondence would be harmful to that specific patient.

The "least restrictive environment" requirement enabled patients to appeal commitments, or appeal a commitment continuing, and increased the risk that abusers would get caught out by a patient an independent expert, retained by the patient or a loved one, had just ruled competent.

Bad places got shut down.  Bad caregivers got shut out as bad risks for legal liability.

Unless, of course, you're a teenager whose parents have already decided they're totally screwed up.  Then, because you can't legally challenge the commitment, and neither can other loved ones, and can't get examined by an independent expert---it's easy for the bad eggs to stay working in the system, owning the facilities, running the facilities.

The same old bad eggs, recycled over and over, running the same old fatally dysfunctional Program.

Kids that are addicted or mentally ill need treatment.  Kids that are criminal need to be put away, humanely, where they can't hurt others and humanely rehabilitated if that's at all possible.

Kids whose disabilities seriously impact learning in ways that mainstreaming doesn't help may need boarding schools with a directed curriculum and special services.

By directed curriculum, I do *not* mean so-called "emotional growth."

Kids from horribly dysfunctional families may need therapy and schooling away from their fucked-up parents.

The Program---and it's all the same Program in every way that matters---is not an appropriate remedy for any of these problems.

Stockholm Syndrome and coercive persuasion and LGATs (or SGATs), invariably delivered in a one-size-fits-all machine--regardless of what is advertized, are no substitute for genuinely helpful, reputable responses, treatments, and solutions.

Advocating good, responsible treatment, targetted to the individual problems a specific patient has, is not a negative.  It's a positive.

All patients (whether addicts or drug abusers, physically disabled, or mentally ill) deserve individually appropriate treatment in the least restrictive environment.

All special needs students deserve individually appropriate education in the least restrictive environment.

All people who misbehave criminally deserve humane punishment.  All juveniles who misbehave criminally deserve humane punishment targetted towards rehabilitation.

The Programs can't deliver that.

We will not get a majority of facilities that serve adolescent people become quality facilities that are able to deliver, and able to send home people who need to go home, until we apply the least restrictive environment test to attendance at a residential facility in ways that give the child a right to a court-assigned representative to represent the child's best interests where they may diverge from the interests of the parents.

Parents should not have a "right" to place a child in a facility.  They should be allowed to try to place the child in a facility if they believe it's in the child's best interests, but if the child disagrees, they should have the right to challenge the parental/facility assessment in family court.

If the determination of the court is that the parents are so opposed to the child remaining in the home that it is adverse to the child's interests to return there, and at the same time a facility is not the least restrictive environment able to effectively serve the child's needs, then the child should be placed in foster care and the parents assessed child support payments.

Too expensive?  Not really.  For one thing, parents are more likely to second-guess themselves if they know the courts will be second-guessing them.  For another, the parents won't be allowed to dodge child support obligations.  For a third, we provide these services to adults to protect *them* from bad care, the least we can do is afford our children the same protection.

Sticking your kid in an institution is a world away from sending him to the Boy Scouts' summer camp, or parochial school, or telling him whether he can play soccer or has to play baseball or be in the chess club.

Sticking your kid in an institution is a world away from spanking his butt or grounding him for getting in a fight with the neighbor kid or staying out after curfew.  Spanking your kid on the butt with your hand is miles away from beating

Parental power over their children has limits to what is legitimate, and limits to what is legal.  Unlimited, unchecked power to institutionalize the child is leaving children with lifelong injury in the form of PTSD.  

Parents must not be allowed to permanently, seriously injure their children in the name of "saving" them.  Morally, the parents have no right.

Now we just have to bring the law in line with morality.  When we can get kids placed for bad reason, or no reason, or placed wrongly, *out* just by providing them an advocate with the legal power to go before the judge on the child's behalf to contest the placement, we'll be able to shut the Programs down through attrition.

Quality, appropriate care in the least restrictive environment.

That's a positive, not a negative.

Julie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2006, 07:41:00 PM »
Er...first sentence:

bad "help" that isn't help

Julie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2006, 07:50:00 PM »
Julie, two questions with what you said.

What is "humane punishment" and how does that help them? Deterrance? Warehousing so they cant commit more crimes?

And, I doubt you'll find spanking support on fornits. Pain, fear and humiliation based treatment doesnt work... regardless of the intensity or duration  :razz:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2006, 07:59:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-03-06 16:50:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"Julie, two questions with what you said.



What is "humane punishment" and how does that help them? Deterrance? Warehousing so they cant commit more crimes?



And, I doubt you'll find spanking support on fornits. Pain, fear and humiliation based treatment doesnt work... regardless of the intensity or duration  :razz: "


First, I don't care if I find spanking support.  It's legal, and I don't support making it illegal.  Yes, it works, and there is a huge difference between spanking versus beating a kid with hairbrush, or a wooden spoon, or an electrical cord, or punching the kid out.

I don't live for the support of other people on Fornits, I have my own opinions.

"If everyone in the room is thinking the same thing, somebody is not thinking."

There is a huge difference between grounding a kid for a few days or, for serious offenses, for a couple of weeks, versus institutionalizing them in a facility.

I mean incarceration that is not cruel and unusual punishment, by which I generally mean what the courts are currently saying, because I'm pretty much in agreement with that.  The exception would be that I think prisoners need to be better protected from each other.

There is *some* deterrence effect, but primarily incarceration serves to separate people who abuse the person or property of others from their potential victims.  I'm entirely in favor of that, but I also believe the duration of incarceration should fit the crime.

I do not support incarceration for victimless, socially offensive behavior.

Again, I have my own opinions, I am not open to attempts at persuasion on these two particular issues, and I don't care if I "find support" here or elsewhere for them.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, even though some opinions are better or more poorly informed than others.  The particular opinions I've just stated are mine.

I oppose parents institutionalizing their children in Behavior Modification Programs.  That's my own opinion, not some bandwagon I jumped on.

I don't do bandwagons.

Julie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline try another castle

  • Registered Users
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2693
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2006, 02:29:00 PM »
Hm. Well, as someone who was spanked as a kid, I think I can safely say that it didn't do a damn thing for me in the discipline department. It normally just made me more riled up and angry. Gasoline on a fire, to be sure. One time I was being really hyper, and my mom spanked me and threw me in the backyard and locked the door to blow off steam. Now, I have no problem with sending a kid to the backyard, (just as long as its fenced in) to wind down and work off all that energy, but I think the spanking beforehand set me off, and I ended up smashing in one of the windows. That was basically a perfect example of what spankings did for me.

I'm sure other kids can be more subdued or quieted after a spanking, but I think they just end up repressing all of that anger that I just exploded out when it happened to me. It was really funny actually, what a chain reaction it would cause. I'd get a spanking, then I'd freak out, then I'd get another spanking for freaking out, then I'd freak out even more, then another one, freak out times three, then at some point I would be locked in my room and I would end up trashing something of my own. (Normally, if I was left out of my room, I'd end up trashing something of my mom's; normally something I made her as a gift. There were quite a few popsicle stick  baskets that bit the dust.) My other favorite thing to do as revenge was to throw her bra (which she left out after washing so it wouldn't shrink) in the garbage. Have no idea what THAT was all about. ("Bad mommy, I'm going to ruin your undergarments.")

Mom was fond of slapping me in the face, too. (One time she actually took a huge book and just slammed it across my face.) Anyway, when I was a teen and got bigger than her, she slapped me in the face one time and I just punched her. She was shocked and just flailed and started kicking me, and I kicked her back. She stopped hitting me after that.

So word to the wise, if you are fond of spanking and slapping, stop doing it before the kids get bigger and stronger than you, or you might get socked.

Besides that, I really don't think spanking is as much about discipline as it is about the parent venting anger and frustration out on the child. In other words, that whole "This hurts me more than it does you." is a bunch of bullshit.

_________________
"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."
-Trevor Goodchild
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-03-07 11:30 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2006, 04:39:00 PM »
If my parents spanked me like yours spanked you, I'd be against it, too.

My parents spanked me rarely, virtually always when I'd done something I knew was against the rules, didn't generally have stupid rules, and very rarely spanked in anger.

The times they made mistakes made me extra careful about making sure Katie knew something was against the rules before she did it or I wouldn't spank, that spanking was rare because it was only done for things that were a very big deal, and that we don't spank in anger.

Anyway, given your experiences, I can see why you feel as you do.

Julie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline try another castle

  • Registered Users
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2693
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Why don't WE make a program?
« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2006, 05:27:00 PM »
How can you NOT spank in anger? What other cornucopia of moods go with spanking, exactly?

As Roseanne said "When would you spank otherwise? When you are feeling particularly festive?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »