Author Topic: Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be  (Read 8855 times)

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Offline BuzzKill

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2006, 09:04:00 PM »
I've read it. My daughter has it now. Its not so much a collection of stories as this woman's account of her niece disappearing into (if I recall correctly) Victory Christian Academy; and the author's attempts to get her released.  

I could be mistaken about the program - but if it wasn't that one - it was one much like it. [ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-03-02 18:04 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2006, 09:05:00 PM »
"but really...we could make a book thicker than the DSM-IV"

And one or two of the accounts might even be true!
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Offline Angel Lux

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2006, 01:23:00 PM »
It seems like there are some mixed feelings out there about the idea.  The book would have to be totally on a volunteer basis, ofcourse.  We'd also need permission from the authors for any stories taken off the net.  I'd hate to violate anyones trust here.
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Offline BuzzKill

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2006, 01:38:00 PM »
I have wondered about that very issue.
It can be so difficult to contact many of the kids who post on the forums - and yet their posts are often profound.
Can they be considered public domain as a result of being on the internet?
Or to use them in a book would you have to have written permission?
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Offline Antigen

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2006, 12:31:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-03-02 17:40:00, Goodtobefree wrote:


Has anyone read that book by Alexia Parks?  "An American Gulag" is the title.  I think that that's what it is, a collection of accounts from various programs.  Anybody know more about it than that?  I'm still waiting for my order to be delivered, so if I don't hear anything, I'll post about it when I get a chance to read it.
"


Yes, I read it. It's primarily one woman's story about trying to rescue her niece from I think it was a Rolloff school, but I'd have to check.

It's an entirely different kind of book, one of another of the thousand voices it's taking to tell this one story. I'm all for it. I highly recomend it. I cried when I read it because it proved to me that aunts like that can really exist.

And he'll have been through the seminars, so after he finds some adjectives for his magical child and does a rockstar dance, he'll become "real" just like the Velveteen Rabbit.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12879&forum=44&Sort=U&start=260#161365' target='_new'>Anonymous

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Offline Antigen

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2006, 12:51:00 AM »
Quote
OKB4RMA 2006-03-02 17:26:00

 50 stories?...How about 500...hell...Ginger could probably get that many just by cutting and pasting off of fornits

Whoah! Hold up. No I can't. I've been passing myself on the stairs here lately. This is the first I've read this thread in a couple of days. I do think it's a fantastic idea, though. And anyone can do it. Anything on here is just as much fair game for you to arrange and present as it is for me. Just as long as you reasonably well label it, you don't misrepresent what it is, that's sort of conventional cortesey.
 
Quote

On 2006-03-03 10:23:00, Angel Lux wrote:

"It seems like there are some mixed feelings out there about the idea.  The book would have to be totally on a volunteer basis, ofcourse.  We'd also need permission from the authors for any stories taken off the net.  I'd hate to violate anyones trust here."


Well, not only anyone's trust here, but I think some copyright laws and certainly it would tax the reader's credulity and sympathy. It depends on a lot of subtle things. You can say any true thing about someone who gets paid to run these programs. But you'll get more and better attention if you stick to things relavent to the way they run the programs.

But you can ask for permission, pay apropriate royalties and such and do the work of putting together a book. I think it'll get read if you do a good job of it.

Here's one that comes to mind.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/custom ... s.start=11

I never have seen a copy of it, but I remember it being very well received at the time. But there's a lot written about it and how it evolved. I could swear there was a chapter on Straight, too. But you could learn a lot from understanding how that project went, what it took to make it happen, where they made misakes, what the critics and supporters alike have said.


The most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of
knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness.

--Thomas Jefferson

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Offline CCM girl 1989

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2006, 12:46:00 PM »
I got my book last night, after I returned from my weekend trip to Tahoe. I've read 20 pages or so, so far. I was a little tired when I read it, so I may need to re-read it! I am enjoying it though.

It does make you realize that something really does need to be done.
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f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline Anonymous

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2006, 09:02:00 AM »
People whose stories get used as part of a compilation in a book rarely get royalties.  Those go to the author or, if the book is put together all from people's stories, an editor.

If people write down their own stories, and those stories don't need a lot of editing to be publishable, market rate for short stories is a one-time payment of cents per word.  I think the last pieces I did like that I did for about a nickle a word.  What you're usually selling the person putting together the book is first (North American) publication rights to your piece, and unlimited rights to reprint, and perhaps (or perhaps not) non-exclusive rights for them to use other places, with you retaining the rest of the rights.  What that means is that if someone offered you money to reprint, you could take it, or you could reprint it freely as part of your own later work, or an international work, or yet another publication--except you'd be selling them the right to reprint it, non-exclusively, in whatever they were doing.  You'd also get a lot less money for letting someone do a non-exclusive reprint.

Since the short pieces I did were works in some other author's universe specifically for a role playing game manual, I sold all rights, not just first publication.  Again, for about a nickle a word, since I'm a pro.  It's not uncommon for the rate for non-pros to be 3.5 cents a word.

People who don't write down their own stories, or whose writing requires substantial editing and/or rewriting to be publication quality, usually have their story included by permission and for no pay.

The exception would be that big money publications might pay celebrities for an interview.

Joe guy with an experience, when someone else is writing, substantially rewriting, or correcting loads of spelling and grammar errors, usually gives permission or doesn't get included.  Frequently, Joe gives permission and doesn't get paid even if he does write up his own experience or doesn't get included.

Usually, if too many of the people volunteering their experiences want money, the book just doesn't get written/published.

Professional-quality writers or editors don't give their time for free or for pennies, we don't get paid a whole lot anyway, and if a whole bunch of people decide their stories are worth a lot of money, it cuts into that already low pay too much.

Writers who aren't professional quality generally can't get a real publisher with one of the national distributors to buy their book at any price.  It costs too much to print a book, and most first books by an author or editor lose money for the publisher.

For example, Baen Books (my publisher) is distributed by Simon and Schuster, which means Baen's monthly book releases go to all the major book chains just like the rest of the stuff S&S distributes.

If you're a publisher, when you take on a new author, if you take virgin authors at all (a lot of publishers don't, or only take them rarely), you want to be pretty sure that author has more than one book in them.

A lot of publishers don't accept unagented submissions, and a lot of agents don't want to hear from you if you aren't already published.

If an author or editor doesn't sell the book to a publisher, they don't get paid.  If they don't get paid (and most people who write books don't succeed at selling them), they certainly can't afford to pay people whose personal accounts may be included.

It's the simple economics of the business.  If getting your personal account out there isn't its own reward for you, it's unlikely to happen.

If you're a professional quality writer, you can maybe sell articles about your various personal experiences to magazines, but that's a very competitive market and most of the time that's not going to happen, either.  Even if you're a pro targetting the magazine market, you're going to have a lot more articles or queries rejected than you have accepted.

Professional quality writers usually have far more publishable ideas than they have time to write them.  This means that any book for which other people want a cut is rarely worth their time.

Julie
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Offline Anonymous

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2007, 08:16:17 PM »
Quote from: ""MomCat""
A couple of years ago, I might have had a tough time believing the things I read in Maia?s book. But that was before receiving the call that would forever change my life. The call came from a boy who I dearly loved, who had lived with us as a teen, and who was abducted from our home in the middle of the night by a teen ?escort? service hired by his parents. He would spend the next two years of his life in another country far from home where he suffered serious forms of abuse, where he witnessed abuse, and where he was forced to commit acts of abuse to others.



It was three years later that I got his call, pleading for my help to rescue his sisters who, too, had been abducted and who were taken thousands of miles from home to WWASP programs. I learned very quickly that what Maia has written in the pages of her book is real and that many of the tactics that were used back in the 80?s in Straight, Inc., in KIDS, in the Seed, are still used today. It is disturbing and the story needs to be told.



I remember when I first learned about this industry I would shutter to think ?how could this be happening here in the US.? The more research I did, the clearer it became how this industry has evolved to what it is today.



The fact that it has gone on since the 80?s, that it is thriving, and that it has become a billion dollar a year industry is very disturbing. Seemingly plenty of lawmakers and government officials know about the abuse and neglect suffered by so many. Yet it continues to thrive. So many believe the kids incarcerated into these programs are druggies, they have a lot to learn. I've been told by dozens of survivors that most children in these programs are far from druggies, far from alcoholics, far from sex fiends. Most of them are children who have been abused, who have been adopted, who come from broken homes, who have ADHD, ODD (oppositional defiance disorder), eating disorders, and a myriad of other conditions. They are children who need help from trained professionals, not children who need "tough love". Not children who need to lose their rights, not children who need to be abused. What are these programs teaching these children? What are they doing to their families?



The programs tout that they build families up yet I have personally heard from dozens of families who claim their families have been broken down as a result of their involvement with them. Maia?s book helps bring that point across.



Program owners claim the children are the liars, the manipulators, and they convince the parents that this is true. Yet they encourage parents to lie to their children and to deceive them. They encourage parents to have their children abducted and taken against their will. Don?t they see that when parents do this they become the liars and the manipulators? Don?t they care? Don?t they realize this very act alone can break a bond between a parent and a child? The very act of hiring someone to abduct a child is unforgivable and unforgettable.



They don?t care because they are motivated by one thing ? money. Each child that comes into the program brings in between $40,000 to $100,000 a year, depending on the program.



What would you call a mother who deceives her 17-year old daughter, a daughter who, by the way, is a straight A student who has never tried drugs, never drank alcohol, has never had sex, by telling her that she is taking her to lunch when in reality she has hired an ?escort? service to abduct her? What would you call a mother who jumps out of the car, watching as these strangers jump into the passenger seat, as they handcuff her daughter who cries out for help, but who lets them take her away, right before her eyes? What would you call a mother who has her taken thousands of miles from home to be incarcerated, taken her from her friends, her siblings, her school, her life, to live in a place where she will lose all of her basic human rights? A liar, a manipulator? This happened to a girl I know personally, and it happens to many other children.



The things Maia has shared in her book could seem unbelievable, but they are very true. I believe the majority of the population has no idea about the truth of the ?tough love? industry. And I believe it is our job, those who do know, to spread the word, to support one another, and to not criticize each other?s efforts.



I want to say thank you to Maia for the time she has taken to research the industry, to travel long distances to interview key players, to sit through what had to have been a heart-wrenching trial (Lulu?s), to interview parents and survivors, and then to take on the incredible task of putting it all down on paper. It?s no easy task writing a book, getting it published, and then getting it out there so people will read it.



Survivors have talked about their experiences in Tranquility Bay, about how they and others have been forced to lie on their faces in OP (observation placement) for days, weeks, and even months. I think about how these children must hope beyond all hope that we, the adults who know what is going on, will come to their rescue. I believe it is our job to try.



In my opinion, anyone who is concerned about this industry and who wants to get the word out to the general public, to lawmakers, to social workers, to educators, to mental health professionals, should all be promoting this book. I challenge each and every one of you to purchase an extra copy to give to your local public library. People need to read this. I have never met Maia, and I have no personal thing to gain if Maia?s book becomes a best-seller. The ones who have something to gain, in my opinion, are the children who might be spared from becoming a victim because someone read this book.



What I think some of you are missing is that we know this industry inside and out, we know most of the stories told in the book, so it?s not news to us (though I do have to admit that I am learning some new things about the history of the industry by reading Maia?s book).



Parents who are on the verge of sending a child away might not if they were to read this book. A judge about to sentence a child to one of these facilities might change his mind if he reads this book. Educators who once promoted sending kids away might think twice if they read this book. Mental health professionals may reconsider their recommendations that parents place their kids in programs away from home and their own communities.



Those people, the ones who know nothing about his industry, like I knew nothing until a year and a half ago, will find this book very shocking and incredibly informative.



If I was a parent of a troubled teen and I read this book, there is no way I would even consider sending my child to any program away from home. It is my hope that other parents will feel the same and will seek alternative solutions for their teens and for their families.



Who is this boy, anybody know?  And his sisters, the whole family sent to WWASPS programs?

Are they part of the Turley lawsuit?
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Offline The Noid

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if i was in my therapist's shoes...
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2007, 09:45:52 PM »
Quote from: ""OKB4RMA""
50 stories?...How about 500...hell...Ginger could probably get that many just by cutting and pasting off of fornits...it could be done in a way that shows the similarities between each program...for example...the "lifeboat exercise"...it sure sounds like that happened in many different schools.  I could go on and on about particular exercises...but really...we could make a book thicker than the DSM-IV
  I have been wondering about that...a list of particular similarities, such as getting motivated.. and what the group motivations are and how the new individuals are likeley to respond the nuts and bolts so to speak. any body?
I don't think too many people are watching this post but i'm here...
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Offline Anonymous

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2007, 11:40:04 AM »
And if a book like that were assembled, who would read it?
We can all revel in our victimhood together, but it does very little to stop new kids from ending with the same fate.

I think we should call the book the "never ending story."
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Offline Anonymous

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2007, 02:45:16 PM »
I think we need to get Larry Flynt involved in making the public aware of these places.  The man is a true hero, fighting for real American values, hell, he took a bullet for free speech.  Not many people can say that.

You may not want to believe it, but Hustler has some of the best-written and well-researched political and social articles available in mass market form.


I think the guy wouldd be interested in telling our story, if only to get some more dirt on the Republicans behinfd Straight.
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Offline ZenAgent

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2007, 04:28:49 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
I was hoping to hear from the multitudes.  We keep hearing that the problem is systemic and I was hoping to hear from the masses.  If the problem is widespread, then it would have beneficial to tell it that way. Instead, it was the same people telling the same story and claming the problems are prevalent.



I know that only so much can be covered in a book...however, if we had evidence, in this case others that we have not heard from speaking out, then maybe it would be a start or another resource that supports the idea that the abuse happens to everyone in one of these programs instead of just the few. I think most people will believe that what happened to Lulu was horrific but I don't think they will walk away thinking all of the kids in the program are or were abused.  



I think people will pick up the book and read the two or three stories in it and go "oh my gosh how horrible".  That is it, no more, no less.  I don't think they will walk away with an understanding of how widespread the problem is.


Send them here.  We've got the reports of widespread abuse, maybe Fornits should publish a book of accounts from the forums.
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\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

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Offline Oz girl

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2007, 08:18:18 PM »
when i read help at any cost i wondered why she did not cover the events that lead to the closure of CEDU. After all it is the model on which so many programs are based. That and Synanon.

In reply to the original poster i thought it was a good idea that the book cover in depth the big cases particularly in the case of lulu corter. At the time I privately wondered if straight and its spinoffs could possibly be as bad as all that because it is almost inconcievable that a modern western country can allow this to go on for 20 yrs or so. Given that nothing at all is known of this industry outside of the US I found it an interesting starting point for info.

Somebody suggested reading Shouting at the sky & what it takes to pull me through. I have not as yet read shouting but given that It is based around AAA I have seen the series of brat camo and read the newspaper reports about thekids who became violent and the sexaul abuses there. Does ferguson made an reference to that? Does he mention a policy of restraining kids by twisting their wrists for up to an hour? provoking angry kids with "go ahead and hit me"? Aferall AAA was happy to boast about and show such policies to great britian. If he does how does he justify such policies? If not can you be sure he isd telling the whole story?
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Froderik

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Help At Any Cost - Not What I Had Hoped It Would Be
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2007, 08:22:45 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
And if a book like that were assembled, who would read it?
We can all revel in our victimhood together, but it does very little to stop new kids from ending with the same fate.

I think we should call the book the "never ending story."

 :rofl:  :rofl:
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