does this sound at all true?

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-24 14:48:00, Eudora (fka ~ Antigen) wrote:


Right, guaranteed profit margin. More than that, though, they need guaranteed absolution.



Look, we happen to be in the HLA forum on the Fornits server. But we could be talking about any organization that identifies with the toughlove approach to troubling teens. This practice of putting down dissent and maligning the critics is rampant and goes all the way back to the beginning. Here's an excellent example of that from Art Barker all the way back in `74.

 "Today the Seed, Tomorrow the world"







"These are New Times"

by Eleanor Randolph, 9/6/1974





former comic Art Barker says he will turn your drug-crazed kid into a dream teen. Others say his program, The Seed, practices the brainwashing of the Future.



http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=8&4

And it gets worse. Far worse. I have to tell ya (in case you hadn't noticed) it just chapped my ass when I found out what you people are doing to OverLordd. WTF!!! He's not even a candidate for your "salvation". He's a good kid, hard working, intelligent, putting himself through college and then off to serve this country in the armed forces. He is the epitome of what you austensibly turn bad kids into. Instead, you go an threaten what you already know is important to him (cause he told you, right here in these open forums) just to get him to shut up.



You may tell yourselves and each other that you had reason to fear this kid. And you'll reenforce that specter till it becomes an echo chamber and you all actually believe it. But any objective observer sees a bunch of paranoid freaks picking on a very decent young man. I feel I owe it to him to demonstrate that some Americans can and will keep the homefires burning while he's off figuring out how fucked up our foreign policy is and how to set it right.



And the similarities don't end there, either. Isn't Rudy a former skidrow drunk turned salvation huckster, just like Art and Chuck Dederich? But you're not so far gone as that yet, either.  Chuck Dederich wound up doing some time behind an attempted murder. He ordered some of his entheusiastic supporters cut the rattles of the tail of a rattle snake and put it in the mailbox of a lawyer who had been winning cash settlements and custody battles on behalf of former employees.



It's not too late to turn things around, admit your flaws, make amends and turn over a new leaf.

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous

"

Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.

--Thomas Carlyle

[TheWho]

Well duh! If they pulled out then they were obviously dissatisfied.

Well looking for satisfaction , but also looking to see how well the kid was doing.

But that's not what you said before. You said that the kids who graduated did better (according to the surveys) than kids who pulled out.

Your right, my hands are moving faster than my brain.  The surveys show that the kids who graduated or completed these programs did better than those who pulled out early.

Without some kind of clinical, unbiased and long term study how could you possibly know?

We dont.  The survey gives us a general idea on "how we are doing".  Are we doing better than last year?  What do we need to focus on going forward? Are we focusing on the wrong type of kids?  etc.

[Troll Control]

The only question remains why? Why do you feel the need to insinuate yourself into the lives of others while hiding your own identity?

I see you carefully avoided this question.

Can you answer?  Is it OK fro Ginger to tell us your identity and link up your other posts?

Please don't forget to answer these questions either, Kathleen.

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-24 15:46:00, Eudora (fka ~ Antigen) wrote:

"

On 2006-01-24 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:


 I am talking about boosting profits by reacting to feed back from former students via a survey.

But we've already established that they don't seek feedback from the students, only the parents. And Joe has made it more than clear that they agressively pursue parents, former clients and former employees who speak about the place with out permission.



How `bout it, kids! Have any of you been asked to fill out a survey?



And I know who you are. Want me to say? Or you can. Doesn't matter. I think anyone w/ enough interest in this discussion has probably figured it out. The only question remains why? Why do you feel the need to insinuate yourself into the lives of others while hiding your own identity?

Locate the blind spot in the culture--the place where the culture isn't looking, because it dare not--because if it were to look there, its previous values would dissolve.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561769118/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Terence McKenna

"

Look  Antigen-- Someone mentioned about 5 pages back that there were never any clinical studies on HLA.  I responded and still do that a school doesnt need clinical studies to steer their company.  They take too long, they are expensive and can be flawed and the data can be outdated by the time I want you to make decisions on it.
Schools typically use surveys.  They are cheap, quick, can be effective and can give a person a "Level of the water" so to speak on how a school or company is doing.  This argument applies to any organization seeking info on themselves.  I am not directing this to just HLA but to any school or program.

Why do you feel the need to insinuate yourself into the lives of others while hiding your own identity?

I dont feel I am insinuating myself into other people lives, it is just my opinion.

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-24 16:15:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"

The only question remains why? Why do you feel the need to insinuate yourself into the lives of others while hiding your own identity?

I see you carefully avoided this question.



Can you answer?  Is it OK fro Ginger to tell us your identity and link up your other posts?



Please don't forget to answer these questions either, Kathleen.
"

I am a bag head for a reason and would like to remain that way.  If you and ginger feel it is needed and will serve a purpose, go ahead and link up my posts and after that if you feel I have been portraying myself falsly then say so.....

Why do I want you to bully everyone who disagrees with you?

[Troll Control]

go ahead and link up my posts

Well, you've gotten permission to do the work, Ginger.  I'd be interested to see all of these posts that belong to this person.

[Troll Control]

Why do I want you to bully everyone who disagrees with you?

I dunno.  Why do you want me to bully anybody?  That's not my bag.  That's HLA's favorite trick, not mine.

Believe me, I'd rather have a fair, grounded debate, but since you are not qualified to weigh in on clinical issues and all you do is stick to the marketing department's talking points, a debate with you really isn't in the cards.

You are more comfortable evading the issues and doing damage control.  When you get pressed on a point you don't want to talk about, you call it being "bullied."  

What is it called when you use physical and psychological force to break a kid's spirit and will?  You people are the ultimate bullies.  You relentlessly force your dogma onto your patients all the while punishing them non-stop for exhibiting symptoms of their untreated psychological problems.  And when somebody has the balls to tell it how it really is, well, you sick Quirk and Quirk on them to break their ricebowl.

If what you folks are doing were on the level you wouldn't need damage control every day on the internet, nor would you feel the need to litigiously silence your critics.  If what you are doing were right and just and effective, you could debate the issues and hold your ground on the basis of fact.  Since you can't do that you cry foul when pressed and sue the shit out of anyone who dares talk about their painful experiences.

You personally and your business are both pretty shady.

[HLA Truth]

DJ-
What are your clinical qualifications?  I am not saying you don't have any.  You have just stated that you have qualifications and others do not.  What are yours?

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-24 17:30:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"

Why do I want you to bully everyone who disagrees with you?

I dunno.  Why do you want me to bully anybody?  That's not my bag.  That's HLA's favorite trick, not mine.



Believe me, I'd rather have a fair, grounded debate, but since you are not qualified to weigh in on clinical issues and all you do is stick to the marketing department's talking points, a debate with you really isn't in the cards.



You are more comfortable evading the issues and doing damage control.  When you get pressed on a point you don't want to talk about, you call it being "bullied."  



What is it called when you use physical and psychological force to break a kid's spirit and will?  You people are the ultimate bullies.  You relentlessly force your dogma onto your patients all the while punishing them non-stop for exhibiting symptoms of their untreated psychological problems.  And when somebody has the balls to tell it how it really is, well, you sick Quirk and Quirk on them to break their ricebowl.



If what you folks are doing were on the level you wouldn't need damage control every day on the internet, nor would you feel the need to litigiously silence your critics.  If what you are doing were right and just and effective, you could debate the issues and hold your ground on the basis of fact.  Since you can't do that you cry foul when pressed and sue the shit out of anyone who dares talk about their painful experiences.



You personally and your business are both pretty shady.
"

See,  Thats what I mean,  you attack me left and right, say I am shady and my business is shady and you dont know me personally or what business I am in ..... What is wrong with you?

Who am I sueing?  You seriously have me mixed up with someone else.
Clinical issues, marketing ? You dont want to debate me because I am not qualified? Who are you? I am totally lost.  We were talking about the effects of a survey vs, clinical studies and how that can better forward a business....

[TheWho]

Antigen -- What you did was wrong, from a professional stand point, -- do your investigation into who I am if that is what you want, I am not the enemy.  You should not shut people out just because they disagree with you.  You cannot learn or grow without debate.

[Antigen]

I'm seriously confused. What did I do that you think was wrong? Go ahead and pm me if you don't want to say.

God is inconceivable, immortality is unbelievable, but duty is peremptory and absolute.
--George Eliot, author

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-24 18:26:00, Eudora (fka ~ Antigen) wrote:

"I'm seriously confused. What did I do that you think was wrong? Go ahead and pm me if you don't want to say.

God is inconceivable, immortality is unbelievable, but duty is peremptory and absolute.
--George Eliot, author

"

Antigen --
I have been on here 6 - 8 months, had a daughter who attended one of the programs.  There has been some great debate with people of different views.  Early on I heard from someone who signed on and wasnt very popular and someone tracked down where they lived and called the locals on him etc. so I wanted to remain a "baghead".
 
Antigen I thought you jumped in and added a lot of value to many discussions I was involved with and if you read back you will see that I said it was so, in your defense, because you seemed fair minded.

What happened?  

 Did you think I worked for one of the schools?  Who is Dysfunction Junction?  Why does she have so much power to shut someone down if they piss her off?

Has she finished reading all my strings?  Will she make an opinion on if I can stay?  Does this happen often?

I am very disappointed and wish you luck,  I guess this is your exit survey.  I will check in later to see if I can still get in.

But just remember without debate you will never grow or learn and you should be careful on who you hire to monitor.  I guess it is appropriate that we disagreed on the power of how past customers can shape a business' future.

If I cant get back in , I do wish you luck, i am always hopeful that change can occur for the better.

[Deborah]

I appreciate you selecting a user name, although you are posting anon again. User names do not reveal a person's identity, but do aid in the flow of discussion. You will no longer be mistaken as an hla rep. That's a good thing in terms of this forum.
I do have a question though, if you would be so kind as to answer. In many of your posts (Little Cat) you mention residing in Mass. Why would you choose 'Dallas Straights' as your location?

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-24 19:29:00, Deborah wrote:

"

I appreciate you selecting a user name, although you are posting anon again. User names do not reveal a person's identity, but do aid in the flow of discussion. You will no longer be mistaken as an hla rep. That's a good thing in terms of this forum.

I do have a question though, if you would be so kind as to answer. In many of your posts (Little Cat) you mention residing in Mass. Why would you choose 'Dallas Straights' as your location? "

I did not choose the user name.  Dysfunction Junction and Antigen got tired of my debate (as a baghead) and thought I was working for one of the schools because my daughter did well at ASR.
They tied my strings together and assigned me the name "littlecats" and diminished my search function use.  I have no control over this.  I am not sure what "Dallas Straights" means, I do reside in Massachusetts.  I dont even know how to sign is as "littlecats".  I guess if I agree to bad mouth the schools they will let me back in.  But until then all I have is this string.
Bottom line is : I guess you can post here as long as you agree with Dysfunction and Antigen.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-01-24 19:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-01-24 19:29:00, Deborah wrote:


"


I appreciate you selecting a user name, although you are posting anon again. User names do not reveal a person's identity, but do aid in the flow of discussion. You will no longer be mistaken as an hla rep. That's a good thing in terms of this forum.


I do have a question though, if you would be so kind as to answer. In many of your posts (Little Cat) you mention residing in Mass. Why would you choose 'Dallas Straights' as your location? "

I did not choose the user name.  Dysfunction Junction and Antigen got tired of my debate (as a baghead) and thought I was working for one of the schools because my daughter did well at ASR.

They tied my strings together and assigned me the name "littlecats" and diminished my search function use.  I have no control over this.  I am not sure what "Dallas Straights" means, I do reside in Massachusetts.  I dont even know how to sign is as "littlecats".  I guess if I agree to bad mouth the schools they will let me back in.  But until then all I have is this string.

Bottom line is : I guess you can post here as long as you agree with Dysfunction and Antigen."

I have absolutely no control whatsoever over user functions.  You are mistaken.

I have never attempted to curtail anyone's rights to speech.  The problem is that some folks, like you, aren't here to discuss or debate the issues.  When I redirect the conversation back to the topic (from your unnecessary digressions) you call that being "bullied."

By all means, if you want to start a topic called "Marketing by Survey is Quicker and Cheaper than Marketing by Clinical Study" go right ahead.  However, interrupting dialogue of a different topic by inserting your useless off-topic discussion won't be tolerated by many here.  Most forums would ban you or suspend your right to post.  I'm happy to correct your behavior indefinitely until you understand.

Post whatever you like.  Post under appropriate topics.  Don't think for even a second that if you post factually incorrect information (especially under the wrong topic) that I won't jump on you for it.  Quit being a baby and make your case appropriately.