Spring Creek Lodge

[Ashley's Mom]

This is Ashley's mom.  I haven't written much since the beginning of this topic, but have been reading everyday.  I was feeling a bit confused in the beginning, but now I feel that we did the right thing trying to help Alex.  He came to my husband and I for help, were we supposed to close the door on him?  Alex is a good kid, just making some very bad choices.  I never denied that Ashley was not as much involved than any of the other kids.  We are just handling it differently.  I did try to talk to his parents the day they sent him away, we were told he was sent to Utah, no "school name", and was told to "take care of your kid and we will take care of ours."  They also stated that the school had complete control of any communication between he and Ashley, so of course we knew there would be none.  We are supporting Ashley in her decision to help Alex.  I will not apologize for wanting to help someone, and I will not apologize for believing my daughter.

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

On 2006-01-06 18:12:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2006-01-06 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:


"This is why I have never posted.  I hate confrontation.  These were my children and kids that he grew up with.  They were repeating what they had heard.  I was just trying to make it right.  They had no business posting anything.  "

They were saying some horrible things, not only about him, but all his friends and their families. Gangs do that too. Never mind that they said it, is this what they all think? Well, why do you let them treat him that way?



And is it so that the kid was trying to seek treatment and you sent him off anyway? WTF? If I were you, I'd go out there right now and see for myself. Insist on speaking with your son privately, unmonitored. You know your son. Don't kick hard in the shins any stranger who suggest that you need their help figuring out if he's telling the truth or not.

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russell

"

for some reason you always miss the fact that this person isnt there parent. they can not go get him.

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-07 08:51:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:


for some reason you always miss the fact that this person isnt there parent. they can not go get him."

I think it was an honest mistake.  Its rather difficult to tell the difference between anonymous posters. Glad to see some of you have registered a screen name.  It makes the discussion much easier to follow.

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trust either of them
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679737898/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> P.J. O'Rourke

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

On 2006-01-07 08:57:00, WWFSMD wrote:

"

On 2006-01-07 08:51:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:



for some reason you always miss the fact that this person isnt there parent. they can not go get him."

I think it was an honest mistake.  Its rather difficult to tell the difference between anonymous posters. Glad to see some of you have registered a screen name.  It makes the discussion much easier to follow.

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trust either of them
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679737898/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> P.J. O'Rourke

"

Sorry to confuse you. But I am not the one with the teenagers that have been typing. I am another friend that you suggested I get a screen name yesterday. as you can see I have.

Ashley's mom, next time one of your daughters friends come to you maybe you should set up a meeting with your husband yourself the kid and there parents and try to talk. That may work out better when you talked with him at your home then he went home his parents talked to him I don't believe he had it all together then he would talk to Ashley then start yelling at his parents. It would make any parent wonder what people are putting in his head. Plus I would leave out the part that all they need is love. Most parents would lose all respect for you at that moment and never hear another word you said. HE HAS A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LOVE'S HIM IN HIS FAMILY INCLUDING HIS PARENTS. Not to mention him being under the influence on a daily basis.
I don't believe he even new how to handle every thing being thrown at him. Even though he is almost 18 he is very immature. Part of me understands what you were trying to do. I believe if you handled it the way you did with me I may have reacted in the same way. I am not trying to trash you I am giving you my opinion. I really don't know you so I can't say that you are a bad person. I understand there was a lot of emotions involved in everyone. I also don't believe you would have liked someone trying to tell your daughter what to do seeing that it is your husbands and your decision on how to raise her. I bet you would have wanted to slap someone who told you all she needed was LOVE. Again just a opinion from someone on the outside looking in.

[Ashley's Mom]

I really need to clear up the fact that I did not mean his family didn't love him.  It was misunderstood.  Maybe it came out wrong, but I thought I explained that to Jacki when we met.  I only meant he should be here with the people that love him and that he loves, not so far away with no contact.

[WWFSMD]

In all fairness to Ashley's mom it seems that Alex's parents, from what little I've seen here from either them or their friends, are blaming Alex's behavior on Ashley.  

As has been said here before a lot of us are parents who honestly do understand the fear and frustration of dealing with a teenager who is not making the choices we'd like them to and who scare the living shit out of us.  What we're trying to say is that 1) most kid actually do grow out of their impulsive or destructive behavior and more importantly 2) what Alex's parents have decided to do is most probably going to cause far[/b] more damage than if they just did nothing.

Ashley's mom - It's also been said here that those of us who were in these places could only wish that we had a sane adult willing to take a stand against seemingly unsurmountable odds.  I also had quite a few adult friends of my parents that later said they had serious doubts about my safety and well-being but were either too intimidated to speak up or just felt that it wasn't their business.  Its really frustrating to hear that after sitting in one of those places being subjected to the daily abuses that we were.  I just wanted to throttle them and ask how they could say nothing when it was fairly obvious that something was seriously wrong.

The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-07 08:51:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:


for some reason you always miss the fact that this person isnt there parent. they can not go get him."

Yeah, I did. And, to some degree, I plain out didn't believe you. I think I've got it straight now. Please forgive my rage. And please do pass along what you read here to Jackie. I almost can't believe the sop that our words, printed on a monitor are too painful for her to read! Reading about it is painful? Please! Put the shoe on the other foot! Grrrrr!

Sorry. Yeah, I'm angry. It's very difficult not to be.

But, having taken a little time and calmed down, I'm really, sincerely sorry for taking it out on you. You're doing a very decent thing here, more than most of our family friends were ever willing to do for us back then. And I thank you for it.

Hopefully, we can get past misunderstandings and lost tempers and try and help this kid.

Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
--Thomas Paine

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

That is why I said a lot of emotions were involved. On both sides fingers were being pointed. I understand Alex is his own person and could have walked away at any time. With all the emotions with 2 teenage kids in love on drugs. Parents on both sides have  a lot of emotions going on. In my opinion the parents emotion and Alex's running the highest out of everyone involved. Alex has been raised by wonderful parents and has had a good family life. That is why he is loved by most people he gets to know.  No one's family is perfect, and they don't claim to be. They are taking all this in consideration. They are trying to figure out what is best. Giving reliable info is great. Putting down and pointing fingers isn't helping.
In the end it is there decision. There will be a lot of people on both sides that will be here for Alex. Let pray he finds his way and all is good in the end. I will listen and read and do my best to give his parents the info. I will also be there for them.

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-07 10:39:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:

Giving reliable info is great. Putting down and pointing fingers isn't helping.

Well, one of the problems is that giving truthful, reliable information on the topic of WWASP programs is defamatory. It's not actionable, illegal or ethically wrong because it's true. But how is a parent to take it when some stranger informs them that they're doing a horrible, horrible thing to their son? Most of them just tune you out. So how do you get the message accross?

Look, ya'll are in the same town, right? Why don't you, Ashley, her mom invite Alex's mom out to lunch. Pick a casual, neutral place and just meet face to face and try to be civil w/ one another. Then you'll find out that there are no lurching monsters in this play, just people who profoundly misunderstand one another.

But for CHRIST's sake, get Alex's parents to either go out to Montana and see for themselves what's going on with their son or ship him home.

Education is that which remains, if one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
--Albert Einstein, Out of My Later Years, 1950

[BuzzKill]

///go out to Montana and see for themselves what's going on///

Keep in mind a visit to the grounds will in no way expose what is actually going on. All that might serve to awaken a parent is keep behind closed doors. The parents will have no better idea after the visit than before, if all they do is visit.
The Parents that had been to Dundee all sang its praises - none had any idea of the realities. One woman (a gran ma if I recall correctly)insisted Dundee had no such thing as OP, b/c she had been there, had taken the tour, and had seen no such thing.

Reading the SCL bloggs really is the best way to know what their son is actually experiencing.
This one:
http://www.springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/
 is an excellent, honest account. Many others can attest to how accurate it is. This person took the time and trouble to spell it all out.
Possibly, in the 40 some-odd pages, it has been provided already - but no harm in a reminder.

One hopes Alex's folks would take the time to read it and consider the environment they have placed their son in. Is this really what they wanted for him? Can this really be expected to help? I am thinking they bought the marketing and are being manipulated by experts (experts at manipulating parents in crisis) whom they want to believe. One hopes, they will be able to understand their true situation, with some help; and that they will object once they do.

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

I guess the difference here is we know a little more about what the family is doing then others. It is not my place to share. You don't know if they have plans to go there or not. Or look into another facility.
I Don't know how to give the info to a family. I am not even sure how I would take it. If was given to them after the fact so now it is up to them to figure out what is right. There is info from here and of course from the school it is a lot to take. It would be easier for you. You have been there and it wasn't a good experience. Is that because of the personality at the time you maturity? I don't know. I don't know you. I haven't been there. My child wouldn't benefit there in my opinion my child is defiant, has not much respect for adults that piss her of. Or me she can be down right horrible at times. She would be in any ones face adult or child if they did her wrong or what she felt was wrong. Mouth running before brain kicks in. (still waiting for her to grow out of that). But she is also loving, but lately more mouthy so she would be in trouble daily I am sure.
Alex is not like that he is respectful, as they say he wants treatment so I pray if they decide to keep him there. That it all works out even though it will be a long road.

It is not for me to say if Ashley's mom and/or Jacki are ready to go to lunch and talk.

[Anonymous]

To CaughtInTheMiddle:

You said it's going to be difficult for you to share this info with Alex's parents.  I have a couple suggestions.  Maybe you could cut and paste what you find to be the most sincere, useful posts, leaving out the posts or part of posts that you feel slam the parents.  Paste it into a simple Word document and print it out.  Then tell Jacki that the thread has some useful info that you wanted to make available to her, and explain how you've taken the time to shield her from the personal attacks.  Just leave her with the posts and allow her to choose if she wants to read it or not.  Maybe once she sees that many people have taken the time to write lengthy, detailed posts, she'll change her mind about coming back to Fornits or allowing you to share info from this site.

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

I have and will continue to do so.

Thanks

[Antigen]

Just wanted to emphasise what I said a few posts back. I said go out there and insist on spending some time alone with thier kid. And then there was a typo, if I recall. I meant to say kick hard in the shins any stranger who suggests that they need help determining when their own son is telling the truth. By the end of an hour long tour, why there should be a whole lot of WWASPies limping around w/ bruised shins. And Alex's parents will have some idea what kind of people they're dealing with.

See, people who know them generally view the Program ppl w/ fear. It's a lot more fun to scare them. And, very often, when they've had hold of a kid for a month or so, parents insisting on speaking with him alone and out of their earshot scares them shitless!

Theology: The effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher

_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82

[Anonymous]

Ashley, have you tried reaching out to extneded family?

best- kt
http://www.cafety.org
Community Alliance for the Fair and Ethical Treatment of Youth