Spring Creek Lodge

[WWFSMD]

Shlee!!!!  Welcome!  Damn, you have no idea how much I would have LOVED to have had a friend like you when I was incarcerated.  I've been reading up on SCL lately, sad situation.  I'm so sorry for Alex.  Hopefully no matter what happens, he'll have the support he needs when he does come home.  Love your pics!  The black and whites are great!!  

Glad you decided to register.  Now go get yourself a new avatar in your profile...you're much too cute for that newbie thing.   :smile:  :wave:

The most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of
knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness.

--Thomas Jefferson

[Shlee]

And, yes, Alex did want to help himself.  He did want to change.  He had partook in a phone interview with a woman at Maplegrove and he qualified for the intensive program.  All he needed was for one, just one, of his parents to attend an interview with him.  They didn't even want to look over the information for it that he researched.  He wanted to do better for himself and finish out his senior year in high school, and do all it took to graduate with his class.  Now, he will miss out on all of that.  All of that and the initiative he took to help himself.  He did want to change, all on his own, not the help of a school he didn't even know the name of in Montana.  He was ready, and he realized evrything he had been doing was a terrible mistake, it's just a shame he learned like this.  He did not need to be sent away to get "help", he wanted it right here.

[Antigen]

Oh thanks, Liger. My strength?  :rofl: Darlin', thanks so much but that was NOT one of my finer moments! And I know full well that I contributed in very significant ways to all that went before the big, noticable fall. We've talked about it, the bombastic blond and I.

But it's all pretty good now. Yeah, you do the best you can and hope for the best.

There's no "I" in team.

There's no "U" in team, either.

So... if you're not on the team and I'm not on the team, then who's on the fucking team?

yea, the team sux...down with the team
http://bash.org/?484469' target='_new'>The Great Jack and King Rea

[Antigen]

Welcome, Shlee! Hope ya don't mind my snaggin yer photo up there. Anything I can do to help, leme know, k?

The fact is the fact, the program is evil, and every attempt to make
chicken salad out of chicken shit has resulted in a Chicken shit
sandwich, No pickle on the side could ever change that.

http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/bingo.ram' target='_new'>BINGO!

[Shlee]

On 2006-01-05 19:56:00, Antigen wrote:

"Welcome, Shlee! Hope ya don't mind my snaggin yer photo up there. Anything I can do to help, leme know, k?

The fact is the fact, the program is evil, and every attempt to make
chicken salad out of chicken shit has resulted in a Chicken shit
sandwich, No pickle on the side could ever change that.

http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/bingo.ram' target='_new'>BINGO!

"

Nope, not at all.  It just proves a few more lies on their part.  And of course, I'm open to any advice at all on the situation.

[AtomicAnt]

On 2006-01-04 17:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"If you guys are still really questioning the fact of Jimmy Urine in the photo here:

http://www.mindlessselfindulgence.com/p ... /index.php

There's plenty more where that came from...surf their site a little..."

I went to iTunes and bought Mindless Self Indulgence's album called You'll Rebel to Anything.  Not bad. I got some good tunes from this thread. I tried to find the Combichrist remix on Ashley;s site, but iTunes doesn't seem to carry that particular track.

So what happened to the post that said Alex had been removed form SCL? Was that just a lie?

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-05 20:18:00, AtomicAnt wrote:


So what happened to the post that said Alex had been removed form SCL? Was that just a lie?"

Good question.

It continues to amaze me to talk to law students -- college
graduates all and smarter than the average bear -- who will
seriously tell me about how dangerous mj is and how it
destroys the lives of those who use it and who, in the
very next sentence, will tell me how they and their
friends -- now CPAs, engineers, med students -- used
pot regularly through high school and college.  And
they don't see the contradiction between these statements.

We're not just talking ignorance here -- we are talking
deep down, serious, religious indoctrination.


--Buford C. Terrell, Professor of Law, South Texas College of Law

[Shlee]

On 2006-01-05 20:31:00, WWFSMD wrote:

"

On 2006-01-05 20:18:00, AtomicAnt wrote:



So what happened to the post that said Alex had been removed form SCL? Was that just a lie?"

Good question.

It continues to amaze me to talk to law students -- college
graduates all and smarter than the average bear -- who will
seriously tell me about how dangerous mj is and how it
destroys the lives of those who use it and who, in the
very next sentence, will tell me how they and their
friends -- now CPAs, engineers, med students -- used
pot regularly through high school and college.  And
they don't see the contradiction between these statements.

We're not just talking ignorance here -- we are talking
deep down, serious, religious indoctrination.


--Buford C. Terrell, Professor of Law, South Texas College of Law

"

I wish we knew.  But, for some reason Alex's family and family friends are keeping that information top secret.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-05 18:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated.


"

In the U.S., we have a law mandating that interventions occur in the Least Restrictive Environment.  This means that if you do escalate and then deescalate five minutes later, you are entitled to be let out of a restraint and/or restrictive environment.  WWASP facilities clearly violate this law on a daily basis by mandating a certain number of hours or days in captive, secluded environments long after the behavior has occured.  Furthermore, the only reason to restrict someone is if they are a dangerous threat to themselves or someone else.  Kids should not be secluded in a locked room because they disrespect staff, get high after not receiving treatment for their addictions, or whatever other rule they may break.  This is illegal.  A few people have said this abuse has bonded them or made them stronger in some twisted way, almost like a fraternity hazing.  The big difference is that these kids are not choosing this environment and can't cry "uncle" when it gets too painful to bear.  



If the children do make new, positive choices, it's basically useless because they aren't permitted to have an impact on their environment.  Your comment about the hobbit is assinine."

Nope, you're wrong. Or dishonest.

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

I have said I would go get him out and let him find his way. That is all I can do I don't have the power to get him out.

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-05 22:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-01-05 18:01:00, Anonymous wrote:


"

No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated.



"

In the U.S., we have a law mandating that interventions occur in the Least Restrictive Environment.  This means that if you do escalate and then deescalate five minutes later, you are entitled to be let out of a restraint and/or restrictive environment.  WWASP facilities clearly violate this law on a daily basis by mandating a certain number of hours or days in captive, secluded environments long after the behavior has occured.  Furthermore, the only reason to restrict someone is if they are a dangerous threat to themselves or someone else.  Kids should not be secluded in a locked room because they disrespect staff, get high after not receiving treatment for their addictions, or whatever other rule they may break.  This is illegal.  A few people have said this abuse has bonded them or made them stronger in some twisted way, almost like a fraternity hazing.  The big difference is that these kids are not choosing this environment and can't cry "uncle" when it gets too painful to bear.  





If the children do make new, positive choices, it's basically useless because they aren't permitted to have an impact on their environment.  Your comment about the hobbit is assinine."

Nope, you're wrong. Or dishonest. "

Can you explain the process and purpose of the Hobbitt from your point of view?  What "thereaputic value" does it hold?  What's an average time period that a kid would spend in there?

We are a one party country. Half of them call themselves Democrats and the other half call themselves Republicans. All the good ideas come from the Libertarians.
--Hugh Downs

[WWFSMD]

To the person who wrote this...

What is this supposed to describe? It sure as hell isn't scl, and you know it. No one ever refused you food, water, or medication. No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated. Again, you are citing things as comparison that are completely irrelevant and non-applicable.

What is your response to this....?

On 2006-01-05 18:17:00, Exit Plan wrote:

You are right about that not being SCL, which I thought I made clear in my post. My point in the hypothetical comparison was to engage in a mental exercise. If a parent were to treat their child the way WWASP staff do, they would be imprisoned. Yet, it occurs continuously at WWASP and similar programs. What gives them the right to hold a child in isolation, submission and humiliation with absolutely no oversight?



There are strict rules and guidelines in our country's correctional system when an inmate is being placed in isolation. It is a relatively rare, and heavily documented event, and the inmate has rights and access to an advocate. Why not at SCL? SCL is at the same level as the recently reported CIA secret prisons. Out of sight, out of mind.



The hobbit was almost always occupied while I was there. Kids were placed in the hobbit for things as inconsequencial as 'choosing out' of a seminar. (if you don't know what that means, click on the piano finders link below and read about seminars) They throw kids in the beginning of Discovery when they get kicked out, and let them sit 'till the end- three days. Do you think not participating in a psycho cry fest- as many newspapers have referred to it- is reason to be kept in isolation with limited meals in conditions so utterly deplorable? I sure don't.



Do they limit your food for punishment? Yes.



For breakfast we received one peeled banana, and a plain bagel served with a bathroom toiletry cup full of water. For dinner - yes we only got two meals - was a tortilla filled with black beans, and lettuce on the side. No utensils. That's it.



Why would they limit food like this... for treatment purposes? No, I say to punish. So yes, I call this food deprivation. For what other purpose would it serve to limit portions like this and give such plain food with very little/no nutritional value? Prisoners eat better than the kids in the hobbit. Murderers on death row have more rights than the kids in the hobbit.



So yes, you are correct, they don't refuse you food completely, instead they give you the absolute bottom of the barrel definition of what a meal actually is. Just enough to keep from getting arrested.



Were we allowed to shower? No.



We were allowed a thin sleeping bag from the time 9pm-5am. We slept on hardwood in the bag with no pillow. It was cold and extremely uncomfortable.



The staff would sleep outside the doors of the individual cells in the staff part of the hobbit. They would place two or three mattresses on top of each other, and block both doors to the cells, and sleep on that. The staff would obviously feel if either cell door was opening, as they opened outwards. They would bring a ton of blankets and pillows, quite a comfortable bed they had.



We were only allowed to wear one layer of clothes. They say to protect from anyone trying to run, but with a staff posted outside your closed door, this was close to impossible not to mention we had no shoes. It's obvious this was also for punishment (it gets frigidly cold).



The bathroom was a port-a-potty located about 50 yards down in the direction of the 'hungry horse', the cafeteria, a common place for others to be. They had full view of the portapotty. So when you had to go to the bathroom, you had to ask the staff, because they have to escort you down. The staff were always in a bad mood, their job absolutely sucked! They were in the hobbit all day too, and commonly they would pull double shifts because they received a lot of extra pay up at the hobbit. One staff would tell me how much he'd make if he spent two days straight working the hobbit, and it was several hundred dollars. It's pretty stressful after that long, and who do you think they take that out on?



Back to the portapotty though. So, once you managed to convince the staff to let you go to the bathroom, they'd let you out of your room, or cell or whatever you want to call it, to put on your shoelace-less shoes out in the staff area of the hobbit. Then they would parade you down to the portapotty, and of course there would be families walking by, perfect timing for humiliation. Staff sure would get a laugh at the steam coming from the portapotty in the cold winter months. I heard from another student one kid locked himself and wouldn't let himself out. They pushed it over and one can only imagine that mess. Overall, the best situation was to hold it as long as possible. It was freezing, humiliating and gross to go to the bathroom. Again, all part of the punishment.



It's disgusting. Three days straight in sweats a t-shirt and socks, and you can't change any of those items for the entire time. We spent the entire day sitting on the dirty linoleum flooring, which was stained with piss and reeked like ... you get the picture.



There were kids who spent weeks, and months up there. Some kids just can't handle being institutionalized and went crazy. Or as you might put it, 'escalating', except these kids never stopped until they lost it. Why they weren't sent to a psych hospital I will never know. These were the kids who would deficate in the hobbit and smear it on the wall. These were the kids who would carve up their arm like a bloody halloween movie and spread the words 'FREEDOM' across the wall with their own blood.



How is this for reality. I saw these things with my own eyes. I hope this is 'relative and applicable' enough for you to take me seriously.



What is the purpose of the hobbit? It is to punish, humilate, degrade and break the spirit of those who don't act according to the programs ideology. In any other context, this is deplorable. We condemn other nations who use these tactics as terrorist states, yet we allow it right here at home. Why it is allowed in a teen help context, I honestly don't get it, and never will.



You have been censored, very heavily. If you want to know what really goes on, go to myspace.com and search for WWASP and ask the hundreds (thousands now?) of WWASP alumnists there. We aren't the bratty, whining teenagers some make us out to be. A lot of us are in our early/mid twenties now and have had plenty of time to review the events I discuss here- and I am being completely honest here- I have absolutely no reason to make this stuff up. God help me if I sat around lying on message boards all day, what would be the point? I have a passion for this because I felt mistreated, and like to express my views now that I am free to do so.



So, in conclusion, I apologize if my comparison to a hypothetical, made-up situation bothered you. I will state my purpose more plainly in the future, thank you for pointing that out.



Oh yeah, and as far as holding back medication, they never did so in the hobbit with me. They did this when I took my exit plan, telling me my dad owned it, and they had no obligation to give it to me. The medications were already payed for, so the obvious reason they were doing this was blackmail. I was on a couple meds (thyroid and another) that you cannot just stop taking immediately without serious health complications. With their actions, they (the program and my family) told me if I left (a program which I consider abusive), I was basically left for dead. It really was one of my worst days emotionally, I have never felt so alone in the world and completely beaten.



Lucky for me there was one staff there with a soul who noticed me spiraling down into an abyss I surely would have never recovered from (I was literally about to walk down the road, not caring if I died, I just needed out) and asked me if I wanted to be taken to a hospital (against the wishes of other staff there). My family rep was all over me when I jumped in his truck, screaming "you're coming back, we'll see you soon", but I knew I wasn't. Lucky for me I was right. I pleaded with the ER doctor to help me and he referred me to their adjascent psych hospital and finally it was over. What a hellish experience it was getting out of that place. (If you're wondering what happened after that, I spent 4 weeks at the psych hospital because I was 18 they couldnt force me back, woohoo! It took that long just to get my real psychiatrist- god what a difference a little professionalism makes- to negotiate with my dad to get back home. He set a ridiculous home contract based on what the program told him. I broke one of his rules, I can't remember which one, I think I smoked a ciggarette, being 18 and all. I was kicked out within a week of getting home. So, in essence, I 'took my exit plan' once again. I went to live with friends and built my life from there and now live on my own.)



I feel for anyone having to endure being at SCL, and having to deal with taking their exit plan and the after effects. That is why I am posting to this thread.



I am another alumnist who descended into behaviors and activities many, many times worse than before I went. I think the reasons are obvious.





Please, instead of nit-picking posts, might we discuss the larger issue? The elephant in the room so to speak. Are these programs helpful or not. I say not. I base this on my own personal experience at SCL and five years of reflection. In addition to being at four other programs, of which I have no complaints. I feel I have a right to say what I want to say, because I was forced to live it and experience it. All I want to do here is share it with those who want to listen.  

What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that

they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long.

--Thomas Sowell

[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-05 18:23 ]"

I don't believe in Jesus.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"

[CCM girl 1989]

Wow, I read everything that Exit Plan had posted. I was really able to see in my mind what had happened to her, and the other kids at SCL. It sickens me, and I'm even more upset that it's probably going on as we speak.

What does this person have to gain by posting things that are untrue? N-O-T-H-I-N-G. Just like why would I? I am a 32 year old woman who just got married, moved into a beautiful house in the country, and am happy for the most part!!! I only discovered fornits back in October 2005, and was really surprised that these places were still around, and multiplied in numbers (WWASPS).

Before I went to Cross Creek Manor, I had spent 3 years at Heritage School in Provo, Utah. I didn't much like that place, I would've rather been at home, but they were diffently more of a RTC. They had levels you had to get to, therapy twice a week, horses to ride if you got to a certain leval, pool to swim in, baseball field, volleyball pit, all kinds of things you could do. We did have cameras in our room, we did have to sleep with a blue light at night, we had alarms, we had a place called Crisis which is a much nicer version of the Hobbit. We had co-ed school, but we were watched very closely! You couldn't get away with anything!

Then you have these WWASP schools. They tried to model themselves after schools like Heritage but they didn't want to sink money into it like the owners of Heritage did, they didn't want to play by the rules. They wanted to rake in as much cash for themselves, they wanted low overhead. They have started all these schools, and done a half ass job on all of them. None of them are quality schools.

I'm not sure how they became so twisted? People say it's a cult? I don't know? I personally think that they were so greedy that instead of hiring the manpower, and professionals that they needed to, they hired people who had no experience, who didn't demand much in the way of pay, and tried to jimmy it into working. Soon, these hill billie house parents were like what the fuck? These brats aren't listening to us Bob! So, Bob, Brent, Ken, and whoever the hell else came up with a really cheap way of fixing the problem. Scare, humiliate, and degrade these kids. Beat them mentally into submission, and see if that works? When it turned out to be a really good SHORT TERM solution they based a program around that. It's really just basic shit. Stuff you learn from a dog trainer, and a bad one at that. It's also easy to teach it to the dumb dumbs that work for them too. It's all about the dollar. But hey, it's not all their faults.........it's you parents out there who don't do enough investigating. And in the end, your kids will hate you for it. I hated mine, my Mom has been dead for a few years, my Dad and I are close, but I still look at him and think..........why the hell did you do that to me? Why do I even give you the time of day? It's all about forgiveness, he asked me for mine, he told me how sorry he was 50 times over, so I figured not being in a part of eachothers lives for 15 years was enough punishment.

It's not about me, it's about getting others out there to be aware of what is going on. If someone made a shirt, I would buy it. I would proudly wear it. Let me know when you print them, as long as they are the baby tees I'll sport it :smile:.

[WWFSMD]

These have been posted before, but for those who are relatively new.......

http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml

http://www.rickross.com/reference/teenb ... oot33.html

http://springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/

If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education

--Thomas Jefferson

[CCM girl 1989]

Okay, I give up.....what does WWFSMD mean?