Spring Creek Lodge

[69]

:smile: Thanks WWFSMD! The more I read about the 'older' programs, I am also amazed how similar all these programs are.

... and no big loss on the family. I am happier now than I ever was growing up.  :grin:

What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that
they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long.
--Thomas Sowell

[Anonymous]

EXIT.  I am really sorry to hear all the bad things. I have read your story and I think it is horrible that any parent would just right off there kid like that. I hope that my feelings of them getting him and not righting him off stay true. I will be here for Alex!!

[69]

I hope that my feelings of them getting him and not righting him off stay true.

I hope so too. I hope so too.

I will be here for Alex!!

 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:

I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-05 08:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

Also all the people on this site who have gone to these schools. I am sorry your experience was so bad, but if people come here looking for info and challenge you at all some may just be looking for answers. It doesn't help when you attack them call them trolls it makes them leave. If you could try to remember this site is to inform people not beat them up. Some are really looking for answers

Please understand that there are over 3k registered users and a whole lot of anonymous users (like you). In order to have this site representative of all willing contributors, I cannot go around editing out the stuff I disagree with or the stuff I find counterproductive. You seem to be assuming that all of us hold to the same views; that if one anon poster says something out of line, that allows you to disregard all the rest.

Same goes for the opposition. Somebody damned sure has been grasping at straws to malign and discredit Ashley and her family, friends and favorite local rock star. Never mind who it was. I could never prove it one way or another, even if I wanted to. I think it was you or someone very close to you and I think you are one of this kids' parents.

So NOW you're in the mood to talk nuts and bolts and skip the ad hominems. Me too. Exit Plan has, not only some incredibly valuable information for you, but a pretty even keel about delivering it. Lot of these kids do.

I don't know how Alex's friends may have tried to influence you after you had him shipped off. I did read Ashley's account of those frantic phone calls she received. If you were a 17yo gal in love and got those phone calls, what would you do? If you were one of these kids' school mates or friends and read all about it and heard all about it on the gossip mill, what would you do? I haven't seen any reason to believe that Ashley was directly involved in trashing your car. Fact is, MOST Americans have at least an impulse to do something very, very ugly to people who have their friends (their own children) dissapeared to behavior modification camps.

What would you have them do? Nothing? Appeal to the authorities? Yeah, right! You got them all locked up w/ your lawyers and pretty fantasies about therapy and help and it's all for his own good.

They're kids, for christ's sake! Screening teenagers for antisocial behavior makes about as much sense as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimony. We know they're immature, outrageous, risk taking and often shocking. That's why we don't let them vote. But we don't lock them up for it.

A fundamentalist Christian President who claims God told him to invade Iraq ? an act that killed more than 150,000 civilians, mostly women and children ? is not that much different from a fundamentalist Islamic fanatic who claims it is the will of Allah that he send young men to America to crash airliners into office buildings and kill 3,000 plus.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7501.shtml' target='_new'>DOUG THOMPSON

[Anonymous]

Awesome post, Ginger! How right you are about the situation.

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-05 10:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-01-05 09:55:00, Antigen wrote:


"

On 2006-01-05 04:04:00, Anonymous wrote:



Alex's Parents haven't talked to his friends parents. They are handling there kid not anyone else's kids. Something a few people on this site should try.

Are you his mom or his dad?

This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: The freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: Any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.
--John Steinbeck, American novelist

"

Sorry just a friend of the family and someone who also loves Alex!"

Ok, then people other than his parents, people who love him as his girlfriend seems to, do have some standing to discuss his situation? The rest of us just have some past experience either with these programs (personally, I have a drawer full of demand letters from WWASP and it's various alter egos and friends) or with raising kids ta' day. My interest in discussing this issue is in sharing what I know.

And please let me tell you a story. I'm also 40 years old. My eldest and most baudacious blond bombshell of a dauther fell stone cold in love w/ a 21yo dope dealer (a real one, mind you, who's wife/child beating father was known about town as a Mafia wise guy) when she was 14yo. You think a fucked up car is something to cry about? I'm sure it was insured. Try this on for size.

After she ran away to be with Prince Psycho, one or two of her good friends persisted in talking to her if they met her in public or, occasionally, actually calling the house or calling someone who they knew would see her to invite her out or just let her know they still cared. She wasn't permitted, by psycho boy, to have any contact whatever with us or any friend who she had before they became an item.

Well, one of these friends happened to be in the grocery store one day when he saw Psycho Boy pimp slapping his friend (my daughter) around. He got between them and shoved the guy, said something along the lines of "pick on someone your own size, pussy!" So Psycho Boy went to work. First, he got all his friends and his big brother's friends (gang... no, really, not a pretend one) all spoilin' for a fight, saying the kid threatened him. Then he, with my daughter in the car, started harassing the kids' mother. He'd done that to us before, peeling out in front of the house, chasing us in traffic. And he'd done the same to her best friend's mom.

Well, Buster (the old friend, the current harassment target's son) came home while that was going on. Saw them in the car, having just laid tracks accross the front yard shouting threats at his mother. What did he do? Well what would you do if you were a 17yo boy dealing w/ a psycho like that and whom the local cops (for reasons we can only guess at) refused to reel in no matter who's face he pissed in or how hard?

He chased him. Right into an ambush. They beat him with a 2x4 and a brick, split his head open, damned near killed him.

So then, then, after the fact, then all of a sudden local law enforcement is all eager to 'help' me with my daugher. They claim that if I just file charges on her, then they can put her into a therapeutic boot camp.

Officer friendly neglected to mention that that involves my turning over custody and letting the state have at her. And he must have assumed that I didn't read the papers and so was unaware of his agencies poor track record w/ ajudicated youths. Just the year before, they had taken just such a young gal in just such a situation. After they coerced her into testifying (maybe falsely) against the thugs in her life, once she was completely isolated, in fear for her life of retribution and couldn't ever go home, then they set her up in an appartment down near the county line and pimped her to other officers.

So I knew better than to believe Officer Friendly or to take him up on his very generous offer to help.

Because of my own experience w/ TOUGHLOVE hategroups (see my sig and add 10 years prior of my familie's involvement with The Seed), I also knew that the private gulags were no better option. I also knew just what some of the folks talking to you in this thread are trying to tell you; that, no matter how terrifying it may be sometimes to watch your precious child veer at break-neck speed toward disaster, they have to, voluntarily, under their own steam, choose to do things differently. And, when they do, they need the love and support of real family. Not the money, I'm not talking financial bail outs and such. Just a true and honest welcome when they drop in for coffee and real moral support.

THAT is one of the precious things these programs take away. Would you ever trust your mother again if she hired some thug to kidnap you out of your bed?

My daughter's back home now. Working full time, engaged to marry the cutest li'll ol'e volunteer fireman you ever did see. They're all good kids. As soon as she realized she was in a bad situation and wanted to get out, she snuck out while psycho boy was sleeping and claimed that bus ticket we'd held open for her from the time we moved.

I can tell you now, with full confidence, that this girlfriend and their friends are nowhere NEAR the monsters some people around here are making them out to be. If they were, they probably wouldn't have the time or interest to geek out on websites like this. If they were, they wouldn't give a damned about Alex. If they were, they wouldn't have the wherewithall to take part in photo art and that very talented and ambitious photog wouldn't waste his time and money depending on their participation. They'd be too busy snitching, hunting down snitches, dodging the law, assaulting people who "dis" them and generally having a fucked up time living out their Sopranos fantasies.

They're just goth and, as Julie notes, they probably don't do any more or less drugs than any of their peers.

Are these parents bad parents? I don't know. I do know they're making a HUGE mistake right now. Doesn't matter if or what variety of issues Alex may have. WWASP's form of "treatment" is not therapeutic. It's extremely harmful. Litterally, doing nothing would be better. Not ideal, but better than this.

There's so much comedy on television.  Does that cause comedy in the streets?
-- Dick Cavett

_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-05 10:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

I already said this isnt his parent. I am a family friend. why would i say i woulnd send my kids if it was. Where do you get he is being hiden from the courts?

Sorry, having a hard time keeping up w/ the tail of this thread.

WWASP parents often lie. I know that sounds like a broad generalization, but it's true. See, in their minds, their cause is so just, their purpose so lofty that outsiders wouldn't understand. And so that justifies all kinds of trechery.

Kid had a court date and was removed from the state (possibly the country... these places often ship kids off if any of their friends or family are making noise about springing them)

Not that the courts are looking hot and heavy for him or anything. They're usually just as happy as anybody to believe, without scrutiny, the fiction that the kid in question is off getting 'help' for their issues.

But it's an asshole move to deny this kid, accused as he is, his day in court. In less than a year, he'll be qualified to vote or to go and kill and die for our country. Don't you think he's got some right to speak for himself in court?

How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451524934/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>George Orwell, 1984

[Anonymous]

Thank you Antigen!  We can only hope that "someone" will read what you are saying and forward that information on to Alex's family, and perhaps they will listen.  Maybe if they hear it enough, and respect the fact that you are speaking from true experience, this will help.  Maybe? Maybe?

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-05 11:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"EXIT.  I am really sorry to hear all the bad things. I have read your story and I think it is horrible that any parent would just right off there kid like that. I hope that my feelings of them getting him and not righting him off stay true. I will be here for Alex!! "

Normally, it's a cruel and evil thing to intentionally destroy someone's fond hope. But, in this case, your hope is dangerously misguided.

Here, see for yourself:
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... category=1

This is where program parents go when they have doubts and questions about the programs or about their kids. Pay close attention! They won't name the programs and they very agressively censor any dissent. They also tend to redirect any conversation away from the questions you ask and over to the necessity and unquestionable[sic] benefits of the Program.

But just read up. See what these people advise parents who's kids are asking to leave these programs or who's kids are home and who are not following their... what's it called? Home contract, I think, strictly enough.

They tell them just exactly what Exit Plan represents here; they tell them to effectively disown the kid in an attempt to help them find their low so they'll come crawling back.

Now, consider this. These parents have already agreed to have Alex taken against his will from his bed at night out to some mysterious place in Montana (or Jamaica) where he is prohibited from having any contact whatsoever with the outside world. Don't believe it? Pick up the phone, try calling him up to see how he's doing. You're a friend of the family, on good terms w/ the parents and generally in agreement about the kids' issues. Why in the world would they want to interfere w/ his communicating with you?

But they will. And his parents have agreed to this. What makes you think they'll pass on the next scene in the script when they tell them to disown him in order to save his life?

It is fear that first brought Gods into the world.
--Gallus Petronius, 1st Century Roman courtier

[Anonymous]

I found this thread interesting http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=001171

I, too, am throwing in the towel.

I didn't see my daughter during the holidays. I left here at her treatment facility. I didn't see my slacker son for the holidays. My husband and I went to visit his brother and sister who live in Dallas. I had the best holiday I've had in some time. We stayed in a luxurious hotel, ate good food, it was relaxing. And the best part I didn't feel guilty at all.

I'm thinking my daughter may need a stint in the military. She has sabatoged yet again her attempt to go to college, by getting fired from her job, taking collect calls from the loser boyfriend, who is (was) in jail on a statutory rape charge. She isn't showing the maturity to leave the structured environment of rehab to the totally unstructered environment of college, even though it is a really small school where she was going. I just can't keep throwing good money after bad. I've spent over $30,000 and just can't bankrupt myself behind her. I love her dearly, but my resolution is to take care of me.

Take care of you. I have been reading over and over, the story of the prodigal son.

One day, our children may return to us. I keep that hope, but I know for my own sanity, I must move on with life.

These programs don't work, if you don't want to end up like these parents - beware.

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-05 12:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Thank you Antigen!  We can only hope that "someone" will read what you are saying and forward that information on to Alex's family, and perhaps they will listen.  Maybe if they hear it enough, and respect the fact that you are speaking from true experience, this will help.  Maybe? Maybe?"

Thanks, I'm trying. I don't really hold out much hope that a parent who's already gone this far will ever be open to questioning their choices. But others who come along might avoid making the same mistake. And still others, like coworkers, schoolpeople and neighbors, might eventually get some understanding of what's going on and withhold their approval or loosen their tongues and speak up! God, how bitter it is to hear, years after the fact from some well intended family friend "Well, I never did agree with that, but I just minded my own business. Sorry, kid!"

The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization.
--Sigmund Freud

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-05 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I found this thread interesting http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=001171

I, too, am throwing in the towel.



I didn't see my daughter during the holidays. I left here at her treatment facility. I didn't see my slacker son for the holidays. My husband and I went to visit his brother and sister who live in Dallas. I had the best holiday I've had in some time. We stayed in a luxurious hotel, ate good food, it was relaxing. And the best part I didn't feel guilty at all.



I'm thinking my daughter may need a stint in the military. She has sabatoged yet again her attempt to go to college, by getting fired from her job, taking collect calls from the loser boyfriend, who is (was) in jail on a statutory rape charge. She isn't showing the maturity to leave the structured environment of rehab to the totally unstructered environment of college, even though it is a really small school where she was going. I just can't keep throwing good money after bad. I've spent over $30,000 and just can't bankrupt myself behind her. I love her dearly, but my resolution is to take care of me.



Take care of you. I have been reading over and over, the story of the prodigal son.



One day, our children may return to us. I keep that hope, but I know for my own sanity, I must move on with life.

These programs don't work, if you don't want to end up like these parents - beware. "

I haven't had a post make me tear up in a long time, but this one got me.  My dad said to me almost word for word that last sentence.  It left a hole in my heart that I don't think will ever heal.  Friend of Alex's parents.....I hope you will seriously read over what everyone has said.  I hope you read the links that have been posted.  I REALLY hope you relay these things to Alex's parents.  I would hate to think of him 20+ years later, crying over lost relationships, lost time, lost hope.

The only voluntary urine sample they'll get from me is a taste test
--Bumper Sticker

[Anonymous]

Glad to hear your family is doing well. I never said I agreed that he should be there. I would have not made the same decision. I have said that over and over. I am concerned about things when he gets out. I would love for the people he wants there all to be involved.

[CCM girl 1989]

Vicoden is a proscribed medication. I doubt she bought it off the streets. Trying to make her look bad so you look better maybe?  

Please! You can buy vicodin off the internet!!!! I was having 7.5/750 hydrocodone Quantity #90 shipped to me 2 times a month. I was addicted for 3 years. It's the drug choice for many a housewife. You can't smell it on your breath, your husband is usually at work when it is shipped to you, and it's an easy drug to travel with (no questions at the airport).

[CCM girl 1989]

Apologies then.  :smile:   Hard to keep track of the anons.  Pick a username, it'll be easier to keep track of who's saying what.

I second that!