NOTICE TO POTENTIAL PARENTS

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-06 17:14:00, Anonymous wrote:


Many of us are here to vent about our bad experiences.  

I have written on many occasions I support this.  But there are two types on here.  Those looking for a theraputic vent (go for it) and those looking to influence families decisions about their children.  To the extent the latter exists, and to the extent you then do not tolerate positive experiences about Hyde, you become the oppressor.

If Hydefan "got it" he would have some empathy for the people on this board who are hurt and damaged by what happened to them at Hyde.

Many of my posts are empathetic, but y'all make it kinda hard!

He is so determined to invalidate what others are saying here, that he spends his entire time disecting every post to find words he can then twist around.  

You can call it "dissecting", but when people make up lies to influence family decisions about a place I care a lot about, I think I have reasonably standing to weigh in.

The truth is, there are a bunch of people here who make unsupported claims intending not to vent, but to influence family decisions.

The most recent one was all of the people yelling and screaming how Hyde students have free speach rights that are being illegally supressed.

That is absurd.

Conceptually, if you don't think character education of children is the responsibility of parents, schools and communities, then yes, we will just have to differ there.

Not being able to even see that there might be a tiny logical problem with suggesting 12 or 14 or 16 year old should be able to say whatever they want to say (except, as I have pointed out in the area of abuse), seems just a tad over-reaching to me.

And thus indicative of the over-zealous nature of many of these posts.

Which, if they were just to vent, I would have no problem with....

But that isn't Antigen's mission.  Antigen being the one who posts all about Hyde but who never went there and only knows what she reads from unhappy former students and some families.

Anyway, if you want a site that only allows negative comments, set up a yahoo group or have Antigen boot me.  That's not really my concern.

But as long as we all believe in free speech rights of adults, I will do my best to stick to the truth and ask others to be accountable for the same.

So now let's test your Hyde knowledge.  What Hyde precept did I just describe?

[Antigen]

On 2005-11-07 06:29:00, Anonymous wrote:


I have written on many occasions I support this.  But there are two types on here.  Those looking for a theraputic vent (go for it) and those looking to influence families decisions about their children.  To the extent the latter exists, and to the extent you then do not tolerate positive experiences about Hyde, you become the oppressor.

All of your posts are still there. Go check. Nobody's disallowing any viewpoints here.

Many of my posts are empathetic, but y'all make it kinda hard!

No, darlin, it's empathic. "Empathetic" is a non-word made up by some uneducated Synanon follower some decades ago. Evidently, it stuck pretty good. They used the same non-word daily in The Seed and Straight.

You can call it "dissecting", but when people make up lies to influence family decisions about a place I care a lot about, I think I have reasonably standing to weigh in.

Well, there certainly is some dissagreement between you and just about everyone else who's posting here. Most of these people have told us some bit of background about themselves. That helps the reader to better understand the context in which the writer is writing. How about you? What's your interest in Hyde? Were you a student? A parent? Staff? All of the above? Still employed there?

The truth is, there are a bunch of people here who make unsupported claims intending not to vent, but to influence family decisions.

What's your intent?

The most recent one was all of the people yelling and screaming how Hyde students have free speach rights that are being illegally supressed.



That is absurd.

Not according to the courts, it's not.

Conceptually, if you don't think character education of children is the responsibility of parents, schools and communities, then yes, we will just have to differ there.

What? Where'd that come from? Part of good character is having enough backbone to speak for yourself. Are you suggesting that you're teaching these kids character by cowing them into submission? I would suggest that that's a rather warped view of character. What is your definition of character, Hyde Fan?

Not being able to even see that there might be a tiny logical problem with suggesting 12 or 14 or 16 year old should be able to say whatever they want to say (except, as I have pointed out in the area of abuse), seems just a tad over-reaching to me. And thus indicative of the over-zealous nature of many of these posts.

Well, then that opinion puts you at odds with the rest of America. Freedom of expression is a cherished prime tenet of our way of life. Yes, we're all "over zealous", just like those long haired hippy freaks who first revoted against the British Empire.

Which, if they were just to vent, I would have no problem with....



But that isn't Antigen's mission.  Antigen being the one who posts all about Hyde but who never went there and only knows what she reads from unhappy former students and some families.

Yeah, typical. "You can say anything you want, so long as it's not important." Actually, I learn quite a bit from the pro-program posters too. For example, you're squirming defense of stiffling dissent and independent opinion. Very informative! Thanks for your contribution.

Anyway, if you want a site that only allows negative comments, set up a yahoo group or have Antigen boot me.  That's not really my concern.

Ain't gonna happen. Nobody here wants a one sided, distorted discussion.

But as long as we all believe in free speech rights of adults, I will do my best to stick to the truth and ask others to be accountable for the same.



So now let's test your Hyde knowledge.  What Hyde precept did I just describe?



"

I don't know what the Hyde lingo for that concept may be. Maybe someone will fill us in. But you seem to be describing this conversation very well.

Carry on, carry on!  :wave:

Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

[Anonymous]

+I have posted my history fairly extensively.  Look it up.  I am just a former student who interned there later....and that's a lot more info than the non-info you repeated fail to provide!  Why are you a drug war POW?

++Um, empathetic actually is a word that you can find in virtually any dictionary, pre-dates synanon or whatever the program is called, and most psychologists would say that empathy is the cornerstone of a relationship.  I was using it in response to one of the dissenters using it.  Do you have a real point there, because you kind of lost me!

++As for as I can tell, you are totally wrong about the law and free speech at private schools in Maine.  See my posts above that state very clearly why they don't and let me know if you come up with a reference other than your unsupported assertion to the contrary.

(The other comments would take all day.  These were the low hanging fruit.)

Have a good one.

[Antigen]

On 2005-11-07 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

(The other comments would take all day. These were the low hanging fruit.)

Just one. What is your intent here, if not to influence the decisions of prospective marks?

A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother.

--Anonymous

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-07 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"+I have posted my history fairly extensively.  Look it up.  I am just a former student who interned there later....and that's a lot more info than the non-info you repeated fail to provide!  Why are you a drug war POW?



++Um, empathetic actually is a word that you can find in virtually any dictionary, pre-dates synanon or whatever the program is called, and most psychologists would say that empathy is the cornerstone of a relationship.  I was using it in response to one of the dissenters using it.  Do you have a real point there, because you kind of lost me!



++As for as I can tell, you are totally wrong about the law and free speech at private schools in Maine.  See my posts above that state very clearly why they don't and let me know if you come up with a reference other than your unsupported assertion to the contrary.



(The other comments would take all day.  These were the low hanging fruit.)



Have a good one.







"

So you have no affiliation to Hyde anymore?  Are you practicing TRUTH???  Maybe leaving out a little bit of the facts on yourself?

As far as you being stuck on kids not being able to have the same rights as adults, I really don't know because I am not going to spend two hours looking up the law.  What I don't understand about you is that Hyde teaches something you are very familiar with, which is "truth over harmony."  We are taught at Hyde to speak up and speak the truth.  What you are saying is that kids don't have the right to speak about certain things. Isn't this a little hypocritical?  I am sure you will come up with some excuse for talking out of both sides of your mouth.  Hyde can't have it both ways, which is what you are advocating!

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-07 15:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-11-07 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:


"+I have posted my history fairly extensively.  Look it up.  I am just a former student who interned there later....and that's a lot more info than the non-info you repeated fail to provide!  Why are you a drug war POW?





++Um, empathetic actually is a word that you can find in virtually any dictionary, pre-dates synanon or whatever the program is called, and most psychologists would say that empathy is the cornerstone of a relationship.  I was using it in response to one of the dissenters using it.  Do you have a real point there, because you kind of lost me!





++As for as I can tell, you are totally wrong about the law and free speech at private schools in Maine.  See my posts above that state very clearly why they don't and let me know if you come up with a reference other than your unsupported assertion to the contrary.





(The other comments would take all day.  These were the low hanging fruit.)





Have a good one.











"

So you have no affiliation to Hyde anymore?  Are you practicing TRUTH???  Maybe leaving out a little bit of the facts on yourself?



As far as you being stuck on kids not being able to have the same rights as adults, I really don't know because I am not going to spend two hours looking up the law.  What I don't understand about you is that Hyde teaches something you are very familiar with, which is "truth over harmony."  We are taught at Hyde to speak up and speak the truth.  What you are saying is that kids don't have the right to speak about certain things. Isn't this a little hypocritical?  I am sure you will come up with some excuse for talking out of both sides of your mouth.  Hyde can't have it both ways, which is what you are advocating!"

Here's a simple, straightforward implementation of Hyde's principle of "truth over harmony":  If anyone -- parent or student -- wants to voice critical opinions about Hyde that are truthful (not deliberate lies or misrepresentation) they should express those views, even at the risk of creating some disharmony (e.g., upsetting people at Hyde, reducing admissions and revenue when people leave Hyde or look elsewhere).  

People who criticize Hyde should do so responsibly and truthfully.  That's living up to Hyde's principle of truth over harmony.  ANY effort on Hyde's part to stifle anyone's responsible and truthful expression of opinion -- positive or critical -- is hypocritical.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-07 14:01:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2005-11-07 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:


(The other comments would take all day. These were the low hanging fruit.)

Just one. What is your intent here, if not to influence the decisions of prospective marks?

A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother.

--Anonymous

"

I have never hidden my intent here (that's why the heading of this stream is NOTICE TO POTENTIAL PARENTS).  In fact, for the most part I have stayed off other streams (not entirely, but almost), and kept to MY TOPIC that I started.  (And that this is so threatening to many folks here I think says something about who is on this board.)

Still, if you want something more direct, my intent here is to (a) (first and foremost) influence prospective students and families by providing an alternative view and correcting blatant mistruths, and (b) to a much lesser degree, to explore the extent Hyde may have been abusive to some.

The problem with the latter part is that its impossible to take people's statements on their face.  Denial can last a life-time.  If you don't know the back-story, I would argue there is a good chance you don't know the most important part of the story.

Same could be said of me.  If you don't know the back story, you don't know why Hyde was good for me and my family.

So instead we all converse at a more superficial level of what's good and evil, instead of what was really going on with a particular student and his/her family.  That of course is not really good fodder for the internet nor would any rational person expose him/herself for that sort of debate, whatever their experience.

Hence this is a perfect forum for casting (anonymous) aspursions, insults and complete fabrications.  Of course, its also good for catharsis for those who may have really suffered inappropriately at Hyde.

But hopefully no one mistakes any of this for reality.

So now its your turn Antigen.  Tell us about you and your intentions here.  I at least went to Hyde!

[Anonymous]

So you have no affiliation to Hyde anymore?  Are you practicing TRUTH???  Maybe leaving out a little bit of the facts on yourself?

This is almost comical.  Well, I don't practice truth, I seek it.  And yes, I have no affiliation with Hyde other than as an alum.

As far as you being stuck on kids not being able to have the same rights as adults, I really don't know because I am not going to spend two hours looking up the law.  

As much as you may want to think this is all about you, well, its not.  It was Antigen and some others who proclaimed that students in private schools in Maine have legal free speech rights, and so as hard as this may be to follow, it is to them that my comments were directed.  

My position is, if you are going to make something up, at least make something up people can't research and easily show that you appear to be talking out of the wrong orifice.

What I don't understand about you is that Hyde teaches something you are very familiar with, which is "truth over harmony."  We are taught at Hyde to speak up and speak the truth.  What you are saying is that kids don't have the right to speak about certain things. Isn't this a little hypocritical?  I am sure you will come up with some excuse for talking out of both sides of your mouth.  Hyde can't have it both ways, which is what you are advocating!"

I never heard the expression truth over harmony at Hyde, but I think it probably fits--just not in the superficial way you are interpreting it.

Before I get there, I will say I see no hypocracy in challenging the attitude behind any speech.  Many of you here seem seriously confused by this, but this isn't about free speech, legally or morally.  You can say whatever you want at Hyde (at least when I was there), but you will also be held accountable for what you say at Hyde!

Much of what anyone says in life is a reflection of beliefs and attitudes.  Kids and families are at Hyde because they are in trouble.  Hyde's approach is to get into the underlying beliefs and attitudes.  You can call it tough love, you can call it what you want, but I found it open, honest, and refreshing.

To state it another way, I think where we differ is what truth we are talking about.  There is the child's "truth", and then there is Hyde's "truth" about what is going on for that kid and his/her family.  If they really use the expression truth over harmony, my guess is it is the latter about which they are talking.

And if you don't like trusting other people with providing that level of input into your lives with the sincere intentions of challenging yours and hopefully making it a LOT better, go someplace else.

Hyde isn't for everyone, but I am damn glad that this school exists because I know of few other places on the planet that seek the truth with such diligence and integrity.

[Antigen]

On 2005-11-08 00:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

So now its your turn Antigen. Tell us about you and your intentions here. I at least went to Hyde!

Rampant talking out in group. I've said it over and over again. These cults simply can't exist w/o strict controls on communication; among current memebers as well as between current and former members and the public in general.

You may have a technical point on whether or not a private school may set limits on what a student or other may say while involved. However, I dare you to try and defend they ways in which they respond. I think they can kick a kid out, suspend them, give them detention or some other sanction. But force them to move a huge pile of sticks from one spot to the other and back again? No, I don't think that would pass public scrutiny. Hold them up to ridicule and humiliation in an assembly setting? Nope, verbal assault if you get right down to it.

I understand that YOU think this is all perfectly defensible and explainable. But just put it out there in public and see if it stands up.

It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.

--Antigen

[Anonymous]

Antigen, Hyde thinks nothing of public humiliation, neglect of a minors social and physical needs, or many other abuses.  Hyde has rules and regulations that you will never see in another private or public school. I went there and I KNOW!!  

Of course the fans of Hyde will defend this  by saying that Hyde did not have a LEGAL obligation to report different abuses, and they might be right, but what about a moral obligation?  I would hope that Hyde would act more responsible and honor the obligations they have to protect the kids who are in their care.

In my estimation Hyde has no morals or values in spite of all their preaching Truth, Humility, Honesty, and so on.  I saw it first hand and although I will not go into every single detail, many are covered on some of these posts.  

My fear is that someone is going to be seriously injured one day at this school, but at that point it will be too late and someone could die.

[tommyfromhyde1]

On 2005-11-08 13:05:00, Anonymous wrote:


My fear is that someone is going to be seriously injured one day at this school, but at that point it will be too late and someone could die. "

Anon, that almost happened during Summer School in '76 on one of Mr. Warren's infamous dory trips. I was there. On our second day of rowing around Penobscot Bay a Coast Guard cutter hailed the "safety boat" and told the faculty aboard that there was an incoming tropical storm and that we had to get to land NOW. I think that the faculty had to be threatened with arrest before they agreed to bring us into shore. Then the storm hit (downgraded to a gale by that time I think).

science is the record of dead religions.
--Oscar Wilde

[Anonymous]

I bet things were a lot worse in your day Tommy!

My belief is that Hyde has had to make some changes because there was pressure put on them. When I was there, Social Services or maybe it was Childrens Services was hanging around the school.  No one would talk about it, but there was definitely something going on, and the administrators looked pretty frazzled.  I even saw the State Police coming around at that time.  It could have had something to do with that whole incident with the sexual assault with Dubinsky.  I don't know for sure am not certain.

Hyde usually will make some subtle changes for a while, but good old Joe Gauld still runs the show and we know what that means!! :scared:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-08 14:07:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I bet things were a lot worse in your day Tommy!



My belief is that Hyde has had to make some changes because there was pressure put on them. When I was there, Social Services or maybe it was Childrens Services was hanging around the school.  No one would talk about it, but there was definitely something going on, and the administrators looked pretty frazzled.  I even saw the State Police coming around at that time.  It could have had something to do with that whole incident with the sexual assault with Dubinsky.  I don't know for sure am not certain.



Hyde usually will make some subtle changes for a while, but good old Joe Gauld still runs the show and we know what that means!! :scared: "

The Hyde staff are masterful when it comes to confronting students and parents about exposing the unpleasant truths in their lives.  Hyde staff are equally masterful at covering up their own truths when it suits their purposes, i.e., when there is information circulating about teacher abuse of students, inferior teaching, staff with inadequate training and skills to facilitate FLCs, attrition rates at the school, inadequate services to students with serious emotional problems, graduation rates, and so on.  Joe Gauld and company can talk all they want about students' and parents' obligation to favor "truth over harmony."  This cliche will continue to be COMPLETELY empty and hypocritical until Hyde comes clean with its own very, very dirty laundry.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-08 11:48:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2005-11-08 00:56:00, Anonymous wrote:


So now its your turn Antigen. Tell us about you and your intentions here. I at least went to Hyde!

Rampant talking out in group. I've said it over and over again. These cults simply can't exist w/o strict controls on communication; among current memebers as well as between current and former members and the public in general.



You may have a technical point on whether or not a private school may set limits on what a student or other may say while involved. However, I dare you to try and defend they ways in which they respond. I think they can kick a kid out, suspend them, give them detention or some other sanction. But force them to move a huge pile of sticks from one spot to the other and back again? No, I don't think that would pass public scrutiny. Hold them up to ridicule and humiliation in an assembly setting? Nope, verbal assault if you get right down to it.



I understand that YOU think this is all perfectly defensible and explainable. But just put it out there in public and see if it stands up.

It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.

--Antigen

"

Still deflection by the mistress of distress.  Why did you quote me if you weren't going to respond.

And yes, I think moving sticks from A to B and back again, in certain contexts, is totally defensible.

Here's what happened for me:  I was a stubborn, strong-willed kid with no clue about feelings or living my life by a moral code, or simply acting responsibly.  Those who knew me expected me to be dead or in jail by 20.  

Moving logs wore out my body and forced me to look within.  It was painful.  It was excruciating at times.  I couldn't understand it.  I was confused and lost.

And every day, sometimes every other, someone from the staff would come and talk with me, or call me to their office, and I would tell them what I was thinking about.  And sometimes they would send me back out to move logs again, and I would kick and scream and get pissed and lash out and lash in.

But sometimes they would praise me and say I was on to something and to think more about whatever it was and come back and report again.

In the end, something fairly profound happened to me.  I discovered the within.  I discovered my feelings.  I got in touch with how lonely I was in my family and in the world.  And slowly but sure I started the healing work from my family of origin.

Many programs....from Outward Bound to the military (not that the military is the best example)....work on similar concepts.

What I can tell you that as a result of moving logs (for a very short time in my life), I believe I am stronger person than I ever would have been if the system was set up to let me say whatever I wanted, to get high all the time, to lie cheat and steal, and to screw up the rest of my life.

I should note that my guess is that when I was there, more than 1/2 of the school never experienced 2-4 or anything like that.  Or if they did it was for one day or something minimal.

Antigen, I have read about how the Seeds program worked, and because everyone here is posting about the bad, I think it would be easy for you to think they were the same.  I don't think they were.

And I also think that you owe it to us to tell us your story.  

Turnabout is fair-play after all. :smile:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-08 13:26:00, tommyfromhyde1 wrote:

"I think that the faculty had to be threatened with arrest before they agreed to bring us into shore."

How authorative.  (And how beautiful the web where you can put something out there without really being sure, but close enough to make it look bad.)

Well when I was at Hyde I *think* they made sure to tell the Coast Guard about their trips so they would be on the radar should something happen.

Gee, maybe that's why the Coast Guard came over to alert the "faculty" on one of "Mr. Warren's" trips.

Nah, couldn't be.  Its the wild west up there, where kids (and presumably their own) lives are disposable.  

What was I thinking.