Typical Day at Sagewalk

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-01 17:52:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Deborah, you brilliant psychologist you-  anger is driven by some other emotion. It isn't a matter of not "tolerating" anger.  It is a matter of getting at the root cause of that anger- whether it be fear, hurt, frustration.....  Usually this requires quite a bit of therapy and a willingness to dig deep inside. These programs seem to cultivate that willingness to dig- peer pressure helps with this. No, it isn't always pretty, but it is necessary to wade through some pain to get to the other side."

This is very dangerous....anger is not always covering up something else. Sometimes it is healthy anger, such as when someone is hurting you. Anger is what lets you know your boundaries have been violated. It doesn't mean you are really hiding your sadness. There are two types, adaptive and maladaptive anger, just like with most emotions. Sadness can be used to hide things too. Ever hear of depression?? If just facing the underlying issues was going to help there would be no such thing.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-01 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I have a question for all you Fornitscators.

When IS it acceptable parenting to send a kid away?  Is a normal college prep boarding school OK if the kid wants to go there?  What about an 8 weeks summer program (music, camp, sports whatever)? What if the kid has a serious addiction?  Is in-patient treatment like Betty Ford or Hazelden OK?  

Or- are all these examples of letting someone else parent your kid?  When you send a kid to a boarding school to give him or her a superior educational opportunity, you are turning over a lot of the responsibility for your child to the faculty and staff in charge.  Is this a bad thing?  So-if you know that your kid has a serious emotional problem, why are you a bad parent for putting him or her in an emotional growth program where intense therapy is offered?

I don't get where the line in drawn."

Because family problems and issues stemming from them should be addressed as a family.

[Anonymous]

So now you want a serious debate?  :lol:  

just a taste of what I'm sure the posters who have more patience will point at... the abusive programs discussed here, I went to a wwasp program:


They don't allow contact with anyone but your parents ONLY through approved/censored letters.

Absolutely no phone calls. Usually a five minute call when reaching the upper echelons of the program.

No access to emergency phone, or contact whatsoever, held completely incommunicado.

No access to psychiatric patient advocate officials.

Being in jail with no charges! plus no judge, no lawyers, no nothing. You run and they drag you back.

Isolation as punishment, usually for days at a time. sometimes weeks. terrible and non nutritious food. no showers in isolation.

Lifespring style seminars.

The whole freaking philosophy of 'behavior modification.'

Do you think physical abuse does not happen? 20 teenage boys in ONE ROOM for years and you think bad things don't go down EVERY single day in there? Programs don't make your kid safer, I can't believe you think this. You put them in a much more vulnerable position, both from other students and staff. I still can't believe parents with the young kids, I'm talking 14, 15 send their kids. They end up living with 17 year olds who are pissed off and angry. What a great environment for your young son with problems, I'm sure it will help him. And don't think my experience is one in a million, it is typical of all these programs. I've been to several.

Can't you see the difference between a summer camp and an abusive program, COME ON!? Have you been inside a children's psychiatric ward? The parents have 24 hour access, not to mention the phones on the wall which call a patient advocate group. There is absolutely NO COMPARISON. The fact you made the comparison is scary, it really is. I have been through good facilities, and I have been through PROVO and WWASP. There IS NO COMPARISON.

YES there are helpful treatment centers out there. No they are not programs like the ones sold on struggling teens.

I dont even know why I bother taking the time to post this, it's not like you care anyways.

[Anonymous]

Not to mention, NO TREATMENT. I went for drug problems, and we never even talked about drug use. These programs are JAILS, that do nothing to help children accept scaring them into submission. They will not 'forget' their old behaviors as so many parents seem to think.

[Antigen]

On 2005-08-01 18:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

I dont even know why I bother taking the time to post this, it's not like you care anyways.

Just remember that the person to who's words you're responding is not the only one reading. Keep on keepin' on!

Anon, to answer your question, I'm all for extreme sports and adventure for anyone who voluntarily engages in them!

The difference between forced treatment and voluntary counceling of any kind is exactly the same as the difference between rape and romance.

I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

[Deborah]

I have several friends who went to traditional boarding schools. They hated it. Why? Because they didn?t want to go. Their wealthy parents sent them to free up time for their own personal pursuits. Most definitely a case of letting someone else raise your kid.

If the kid WANTS to go, then they are probably developmentally ready for such a journey away from family, or despise their family so much they see it as a great escape.

I?m personally not big on summer camps. Another ?break from the kids?- 8, 9 weeks with them is just too much. Why not take your kids on a camping trip? I heard of a summer camp recently that is designed for the whole family. What a novel idea!!!

Where I draw the line- they aren?t FORCED for the convenience and/or comfort of their parents.
They aren?t forced, and they aren?t isolated from family and subjected to controversial bm techniques. They certainly get all the food they want to eat and spend most of their day laughing instead of crying and trying to avoid another irrational punishment.

I personally think Betty Ford and Hazeldon are a waste of money.

My son went to one of the most ?prestigious? TBSs in the industry. Their ?therapy? was a mockery and unlike anything I had experienced or studied. I have friends with PhDs that were seriously concerned about this so-called therapy. He returned home 5 credits behind his peers, and a/b student prior. A gifted athlete, he stopped playing sports all together. He also lost his competive nature. He used to love to play games. No longer.  He did learn how to lie very well, and keep a smile on his face and how to avoid pushing his dad?s buttons. They have a very superficial relationship which suits dad just fine. My son didn?t receive therapy; he was conditioned with behavior modification to become and ?island? unto himself. To believe that others weren?t interested in his thoughts and feelings. To keep those thoughts and feelings to himself. That is not emotional growth and not what I would choose for my son.

I think parents and their kids would be much better off hiring a temporary, live-in parenting coach, good therapits or nanny or wise old grandma.

There is absolutely nothing these 'magical' programs do that a parent couldn't do themselves, if they desired to do it. And far better options for those who put a few personal persuits aside and think about what their kid needs.

[Deborah]

***Deborah, you brilliant psychologist you- anger is driven by some other emotion. It isn't a matter of not "tolerating" anger. It is a matter of getting at the root cause of that anger- whether it be fear, hurt, frustration..... Usually this requires quite a bit of therapy and a willingness to dig deep inside. These programs seem to cultivate that willingness to dig- peer pressure helps with this. No, it isn't always pretty, but it is necessary to wade through some pain to get to the other side.***

And what is your degree in? It was a matter of not tolerating OL's anger.
One of you said:
You were beginning to make some friends over on the other site. All that will be destroyed now with your immature swearing and anger. Too bad I can't post it over there- but it is too ridiculous to be appropriate.

I don't find that 'tolerant'. It sound about like how the kids are taught 'emotional growth' in a program.

What do you imagine was driving OL's anger- that was going to cost him friends over at ST?

[Anonymous]

Deborah- you are a master at twisting words and sticking to your one-track agenda. You really must be super-parent, because according to you, there is an entire industry that is completely unneccessary.   Do you think parents WANT to send their kids away and spend $60K a year? Do you think it is something parents take pride in doing?  The reason the kids are sent to EG programs is because the parents can no longer help the kids.  The part you still don't get is that the parents have tried everything.
I agree that there are some bad programs and there have been some abuses.  There are also excellent programs which have helped many kids.
Your personal frustration and control issues are coming through loud and clear, and I'm sorry you didn't agree with the placement of your kid.
My own kid came out of his program more committed to his academics and extra-curricular activities than ever.

[Deborah]

If you want to provide some examples in which I 'twisted' your words, I'll certainly consider that.

Otherwise, I percieve your comment to be another avoidance of discussing the issue at hand. The isolation of one family member and their Forced 'treatment' under the guise of 'therapy' and 'emotional growth'.

Does your agenda have more than one track?

Studies indicating that EG warehouses may not be as effective as keeping the family together:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 180#102197

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-01 19:47 ]

[Deborah]

***Yeah but---see Deb--most people have never heard of the Child Welfare League or whatever it's called---just one more bureaucratic complaint group I bet.***

They may not have, but I'm sure they've heard of the GAO.

And perhaps they've heard of the Office of Inspector General. Their 2000 report, may be of interest, which clearly indicates a lack of state oversight of RTCs, forget the 'unlicensed' programs. They have no oversight at all.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#84989

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-01 19:20:00, Anonymous wrote:

"My own kid came out of his program more committed to his academics and extra-curricular activities than ever."

Honestly then, why are you here? I don't mean this in a joking manner, I am completely serious.

Deborah, Antigen, all the people who went to programs, I understand their own personal motives as to why they come here and post-- and it makes sense to me.

I guess I am wondering, if you had such a wonderful experience, and so did your son, what is your purpose in continuing to immerse yourself in these message boards? How are you involved in these schools now? Do you refer other kids to programs now?

You keep saying there are good programs out there, well, which ones exactly do you think are good then?

One more question-- what program exactly did you send your kid to, the program you claim is so succesful?

Thank you for answering, I'm just trying to understand your reasoning and motives I guess.

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-08-01 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I have a question for all you Fornitscators.

When IS it acceptable parenting to send a kid away?  Is a normal college prep boarding school OK if the kid wants to go there?  What about an 8 weeks summer program (music, camp, sports whatever)? What if the kid has a serious addiction?  Is in-patient treatment like Betty Ford or Hazelden OK?  

Or- are all these examples of letting someone else parent your kid?  When you send a kid to a boarding school to give him or her a superior educational opportunity, you are turning over a lot of the responsibility for your child to the faculty and staff in charge.  Is this a bad thing?  So-if you know that your kid has a serious emotional problem, why are you a bad parent for putting him or her in an emotional growth program where intense therapy is offered?

I don't get where the line in drawn."

I would draw the line at any program that monitors or limits my communication with my children or them with me. Period. Ain't gonna happen. I'm the parent no matter where my child is and therefore I am in charge of his welfare and treatment, not a program. I must be fully involved in all decisions regarding my child or the program is not acceptable. If my child is punished for any reason whatsoever I want an immediate phone call and explanation and I want it from both the staff and my child. I want to know what my child did wrong and what the punishment is to be. I get this treatment from my son's free public school every day. I expect no less from an expensive private one.[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2005-08-01 22:06 ]

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-08-01 19:07:00, Deborah wrote:

There is absolutely nothing these 'magical' programs do that a parent couldn't do themselves, if they desired to do it.  

Yes there is. If a parent treated their child at home in the same way these programs do, Family Services would intervene and remove the child. The parent would be arrested.

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-08-01 19:20:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Deborah- you are a master at twisting words and sticking to your one-track agenda. You really must be super-parent, because according to you, there is an entire industry that is completely unneccessary.

Like the pornography industry, for example? Or the video game industry?

The EG industry wasn't needed until it was invented.

Do you think parents WANT to send their kids away and spend $60K a year?

It was your choice, therefore you wanted to. You could have just thrown the kid out. My Father threw my sister out when she was 15 and pregnant. She has been on her own ever since. She now holds a PHD. It saved him tons of money. She did not end up dead or in jail despite the drugs, alcohol, and sex. She had been sober and in AA for years. She did it all on her own.

Do you think it is something parents take pride in doing?  The reason the kids are sent to EG programs is because the parents can no longer help the kids.

Yes, sometimes the parent can no longer help. Then, it is up to the child. Ask my Dad.

What is with this 'emotional growth' program term? I thought these were 'behavior modification' progams, or has that term become too strong or negative? I despise the newspeak.

'remove the child from negative influences' means lock them up in an isolated place.

'take them out of their comfort zone' means treat them harshly until they have a strong emotional reaction - and break down or become violent. (thus proving they need help)

'provide them with the opportunity to make better decsions' means force them to obey the rules, or else.

Why not just say, 'We will isolate your child from you and the rest of the world. We will deprive them of the creature comforts they are used to. We will exhaust them with physical activity. We will not allow them to complain. We will enforce strict rules over the smallest details of their lives. This will make them less resistant to change. Then we will force them to confess everything they have done and tell them how wrong they were to do these things. Then we will dictate terms that they must meet in order to ever leave the program. Any resistance will result in harsh punishment and a longer stay. Only when they have convinced us that they will adhere to the dictated terms, will we allow them to return to you. We decide when this takes place; not the child, not the parent (unless the parent stops paying)."

You sent your kid away for this? Anyone can do this; if they are mean enough.

This is what you have agreed to. A fool and his money is soon parted. You deserve the financial drain. I feel for the children.

PS: I am a parent. I'm not a disgruntled parent. I have never had a child in a 'program.' I have never been in a 'program.' I am merely a TV viewer of Brat Camp that found the entire idea thoroughly disgusting.

[Anonymous]

Dear Atomic:  Lucky you, who never had a child spinning out of control.  I wish I had your innocence.  I also wish I had the tens of thousands I spent on therapy for my out of control child that insurance never covered.  Wish I didn't have that pesky second mortgage that supports education for all my children.  Can you agree that it's entirely possible that my child had problems, possibly genetically based, that your child does not?


Believe it or not, I agree with you that some parts of Brat Camp are stupid, starting with the name.  Then again, some parts of Survivor and Dancing with the Stars were stupid too.  It's called reality television.