Mental Health Screening in Schools Signals the End of Parent

[Paul]

Why have you got such a problem w/ personal liberty and responsibility? Why must you invoke force of law to make sure everybody else is taking the drugs you think they should take and not taking the drugs you don't think they should take? "The New Freedom" init is just about the most Orwelian turn of a phrase I've heard lately. I want the OLD freedom back, damn it!

I always state voluntary, with protections.

You ignore my statements.

How much credit would you like when you make
statements like these, hysteria, based on what
I say, when you ignore what I state.

Voluntary, with protections ...

Hello?

[Antigen]

On 2005-06-22 16:51:00, Paul wrote:


I always state voluntary, with protections.



You ignore my statements.



How much credit would you like when you make

statements like these, hysteria, based on what

I say, when you ignore what I state.



Voluntary, with protections ...



Hello?"

Well, if you make rediculous statements, you should not expect to gain credibility by it.

There is nothing voluntary about this New Stalinist mental health plan. The funding certainly isn't voluntary. Unless the Paul amendment passes, they're going to take it from us by force of law. And you can't POSSIBLY believe that anything that happens in the environment of compulsory schools is voluntary in any meaningful way.

Kids are trained right from their first day of Head Start to do as instructed by their teachers and other faculty and staff. And they generally do. So that, when  my daughter was called out of class along w/ a couple of other kids to get a Hep C vaccination in 8th grade, do you think she objected? Hell no! She didn't even bother to mention it to me till some days later when the topic of vaccinations came up.

How niave are you, Paul?

Never mind.

On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

[Antigen]

On 2005-06-22 16:48:00, Paul wrote:



On 2005-06-22 16:20:00, Antigen wrote:


"

Even Orwell, who was more than a little fond of some of Uncle Joe's ideas, warned us about government shrinks.

Ginger,



Look, no matter how many times I say voluntary,

with protections and you ignore me, is not my

choice, it is yours.



When you make this kind of reference, I guess

you are trying to tell me shrinks are bad. No

matter how many times I post that I have been

helped by shrinks and it was all voluntary.



How to make your points irrelevent? Speak in

absolute terms, tell a safisfied customer they

are wrong ...



Thanks but no thanks ..."

To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Antigen]

Paul, I'm still astounded that you think anyone would just take your word for it that this is all voluntary; especially in the face of so much evidence to the contrary... I have to ask... do you believe that the Büsh admin has not raised taxes? After all, he said it again and again "Read my lips, no new taxes!"

How frigging stupid can you be? Have you never read a newspaper? Or, let me rephrase that, have you never read a newspaper twice, some months or years apart, and maybe noticed that terms like "voluntary" coming from politicians are .... well, quietly discarded like last year's campaign promises?

I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
--Robert Frost, American poet

[Paul]

On 2005-06-22 17:07:00, Antigen wrote:


How frigging stupid can you be?

Ginger,

Here is how stupid I am.

I am an upaid mental health advocate.

People call me. I give them info on information
that they want, only.

I know the people in San Diego County and at the
State level who insure that voluntary, means voluntary. You can sit on your computer and state that all voluntary is in-voluntary all you want.

Voluntary is voluntary. If it is not then the person files a complaint, grievence or a simple informal inquiry and resolves the issue, and the bottom line does not do something they don't want to do.

If they don't complain, or inquire how can they be helped. If they don't eat, that is their choice to. If a friggin letter is mailed to their house asking them to call if they want to opt out, where is the mandatory.

What examples are you talking about to speak in such absolute terms that voluntary is never voluntary?

Would you like me to tell all the other advocates,  consumer and professionals that are involved in mental health that our voluntary programs are a hoax?

Please Ginger, you are getting juvenile.

If you want to expend some energy, help someone
understand the laws and how to say no. I wouldn't tell them these absolute statements and feel like your helping ...

Paul

[Antigen]

Ok, if it's voluntary, then I do not volunteer to pay for it. If you're so damned interested in getting a psyche eval on every kid, pregnant woman and school faculty member in the country, then I suggest you knock off the volunteer work, get a real well paying job and foot the bill yourself.

Is that too much to ask? Keep you Machiavellian mitts off my kid, mindfucker!

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine, American revolutionary

[Paul]

On 2005-06-22 18:04:00, Antigen wrote:

"Ok, if it's voluntary, then I do not volunteer to pay for it. If you're so damned interested in getting a psyche eval on every kid, pregnant woman and school faculty member in the country, then I suggest you knock off the volunteer work, get a real well paying job and foot the bill yourself.



Is that too much to ask? Keep you Machiavellian mitts off my kid, mindfucker!

Whatever. I am just glad you revealed yourself
to me, I don't notice these things on my own.

[Antigen]

It's very clear to me that there's a LOT you don't notice. NOthing mandated by law is actually voluntary.

Do a little experiment. Just ask around ppl you know who have had contact w/ middle schools in the last 15 years or so. Ask them if they gave consent to have their kids involved in the DARE program. Shit, just ask them what the DARE program is. Most ppl don't even know that it's a psychological program requiring parental consent. Most people think it's just another class, oddly "taught" by a cop who's usually not certified either as a teacher or as a therapist.

Go ahead and look it up. Then talk to me about voluntary psyche programs administered by the NEA.

To say the drug war is a failure is like saying the Hindenburg was short a few fire extinguishers.
http://mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n808/a10.html' target='_new'>Carl Hiassen

[Paul]

On 2005-06-22 21:32:00, Antigen wrote:

"It's very clear to me that there's a LOT you don't notice. NOthing mandated by law is actually voluntary.

If all you say is true, and you slice the reality from people's experience, then do something about it.

Posting and hosting Fornits is ok to rant.

What about doing something meaninful and pointing
out these flaws that are noticeable to you, and
may or may not be noticed by others?

[Antigen]

Um, I do.

Anyway, thought you might find this interesting. Take a look at this document. http://www.asapstudy.org/teachers/EducatorsKit.pdf Search for the term "consent". Note that it only occures once as a question. No trace of an answer. And what does the term 'usability' in this context mean anyway?

Since you [US "drug tsar" McCaffrey] control a federal budget that has just been increased from $17.8 billion last year to $19.2 billion this year, is asking people like you if we should continue with our nation's current drug policy like a person asking a barber if one needs a haircut? --
                                                              Orange Country, California
                                                                  Los Angeles Times
                                                                    29 March 2000
--Judge James P. Gray

[Paul]

On 2005-06-22 21:53:00, Antigen wrote:

"Um, I do.



Anyway, thought you might find this interesting. Take a look at this document. http://www.asapstudy.org/teachers/EducatorsKit.pdf Search for the term "consent". Note that it only occures once as a question. No trace of an answer. And what does the term 'usability' in this context mean anyway?

Since you [US "drug tsar" McCaffrey] control a federal budget that has just been increased from $17.8 billion last year to $19.2 billion this year, is asking people like you if we should continue with our nation's current drug policy like a person asking a barber if one needs a haircut? --
                                                              Orange Country, California
                                                                  Los Angeles Times
                                                                    29 March 2000
--Judge James P. Gray

"

I am going out of town for a couple of days,
no time to read it now.

I am glad you do something about the educational system.

[Paul]

I still didn't see you post a solution to early detection of mental illness, and now that you
brought up a second program, for drug abuse.

What are your solutions?

[Paul]

Ginger,

When you lash out at me, it reminds me of today's quote from the Scientology post:

http://www.lermanet2.com/scientologynew ... lat-1c.htm "If you remained in awe of him ... he was great," said Sullivan, who had a falling out with the church in 1981. "If you crossed him, or appeared to cross him, he would lash out at you, scream at you, accuse you of things."

It would be nice just to stay on topic rather than be insulted, accused and deflected to analyzing other programs to prove your points.

Gotta go,

Paul

[Anonymous]

Paul- You obviously have no personal experience with our 'voluntary' county mental health system. Since you seem so hard-headed I won't even begin to go into the experiences I have personally had, but I can tell you with certainty there is nothing volutary about it. If you trust the governement with mental health, you are insane. Or ignorant.

[Anonymous]

I got good care from my county mental health system when I was poor.  Once I finally got through the waiting list to see the psychiatrist, he prescribed meds that helped me get functional enough to get a good job with health insurance and no longer need care based on "ability to pay."

The county mental health in the county I lived in helped me get my life back together and on track for where I wanted it to go.

The therapist was a bit of an idiot, but the psychiatrist was competent.

And they didn't come to me, I went to them.

I'm glad they were there.

I guess that's one of those "your mileage may vary" things.

Maybe what we need are computerized, anonymous client satisfaction surveys at county mental health facilities.  If you use one computer program nationally, you can ensure computer based surveys are more anonymous and tamper-proof than any other kind of survey, because there's no handwriting or piece of paper to potentially be identifiable and able to be associated with a particular client.  

[technical description]
All you really have to do is make the survey data inaccessible to the facility staff and have it extracted and tabulated centrally when they pick up the survey's detached hard drive.  Keeping them out of the data is simple.  Use Oracle, stick it on a detachable hard drive, password the system, use the card system they use for computerized voting, with signed stubbs, to ensure the surveys are only filled out by the clients--do random audits since the clients' signatures are on the privacy documents in their files and available for comparison--it will keep the facilities honest with the stubs.  Then only provide a data input interface program to the facilities and no data reporting interface.  Only a decent database programmer could figure out how to query the system and tabulate the data themselves, they *still* wouldn't get individually identifiable data unless they ran a query immediately after every single client completed the survey, and even a database programmer or DBA at the client facility (which they won't have) couldn't get on the system because they don't have the system manager password--which you can make a long string of random characters, and log intrusion attempts, because you can write down the system manager passwords at your centralized location that none of the facility staff ever have access to.
[technical description ends]

Use the customer statisfaction surveys to identify what the good facilities are doing right, and the bad ones are doing wrong, to fix the bad ones.  Give states money in block grants contingent on their scores on client satisfaction.

Obviously, you'd put in safeguards to keep them from turning away the harder-to-please cases.  Like tabulating satisfaction sorted by demographics like diagnosis, etc.

Rather than just complaining about county mental health, work to fix it.

I've been part of successful efforts to get legislation changed.  It really *can* be done.

You *can* fight city hall.  And win.

You just have to know how and be willing to put the work in.

Timoclea