Author Topic: Involuntary Committment... Notice Any Similarities  (Read 17468 times)

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2005, 12:49:00 PM »
A recent study here, that was not a double
blind study, but probably accurate enough
was that ignoring the homeless costs society
in all about $65,000 per year.

I don't know what type of professor you had
make that comment. The facts are that 30%
of the homeless have mental illness. I don't
know what percentage of that makes homelessness
inevitable, but untreated mental illness doesn't
bring about good results.

Giving someone meds, alone, is hardly the answer
and has never been a recommendation that I have
seen in goverment, or public, mental health programs.

It is very complex how one gets into, and then
out of homelessness. In California we had a pilot
program called AB 2034 that funded a wrap around
program for the homeless. It worked, but it was
only a pilot program and the funds are gone now.

Those that participated are living in a home
and working and paying taxes ...

Those that did not get a chance to be in the AB
2034 program are status quo.

Mental health care is hardly meds alone, but
apparently to the anti-psychiarty crowd that
is all it is. How can I argue that the $208
million dollar San Diego County mental health
budget is not a medication budget alone? I
would be wasting my time. All those employed
in the various prorams must feel insulted
when they are written off as drug pushers.

Regarding the Massachusetts article, there
should be a couple of answers culled before
any judgement is made. We all know that private
insurance has a safety net for high volume
utilizers of insurance dollars, that is SSDI
and SSI.

Given that, of those 40,000 on multiple medications did they all have a single
mental diagonosis? Or did they have multiple
diagnosis? If multiple diagnosis then perhaps
additional perscriptions would have to be
justified. In California all prescriptions
for all patients need to be justified, in
Massachusetts the article makes it sound
like a free for all. Is there no quality
assurance in Massachusetts or is the article
mis-representing the complex role of public
health and the ever so profitable role of
private health insurance?
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2005, 12:51:00 PM »
I admit it here, I am a dolt, and
couldn't find the bill online.

Could someone post the link so
I can read the details?

Thanks!
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2005, 01:02:00 PM »
"their emotions are suppresed with mind numbing drugs that ARE dangerous"

What decade are you talking about?

My roomate was in a state psych hospital and I
would suspect that is where you would be quoting
the worst abuses, except it doesn't happen. It
doesn't happen in reports, it doesn't happen
asking my roomate and the biggest complaint
in public health is that the jailed, or hospitalized
are getting inadequate mental health services.

I don't know which public policy meeting you
attend that are proposing medications only,
but I have been active since 1998 and have
never heard it, except for the ir-relevant
anti-psychiatry speakers who get the right
to speak at these conferences and local meetings
because of their stance against mental health.

To me, it is the only time I wish I could claim
that I don't have mental illness. These folks
embarras the heck out of me. Never are they
well researched and are always off topic to
what the meeting is about.

Everyone just rolls their eyes, and they
get dismissed. It is so damn sad how much
the anti-psychiatry crowd has hurt themselves
and others. But those making money never leave
and have carved out a profitable nice for
themselves.

The one's that follow rather than think are
just being taken advantage of, and they will
be the last to know, sadly.

"at the very least damage major organs"
Name each medication that you are referring
to and the statistical incidence report, please.

"can cause worse side-effect, including suicide/homicide"

Take Schizophrenia, if 85% are unmedicated, then are you saying all the problems associated with this illness are from the 15% that take medication?
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2005, 01:06:00 PM »
OK, I am off to play water volleyball,
while I am gone you are welcome to
post the anti-psychiatry mental health
platform.

Please state your bias, before the
roll out of your platform, such as,
Mental Illness is a Myth, or whatever
else is driving your belief system.

If attacking the current system, then
please state your references and fact.

Emotional comments do not count in
public policy.

I am looking forward to your information.
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2005, 01:17:00 PM »
I use to attend county public mental
health meetings with Dr. Mosher.

I liked him as a person, as far as
his contributions to public policy
there were none.

It was like he was in a different
decade.

Programs that had been in place for
years, non-medication, he would advocate
for, even though we had them already.

He pretty much would express his
displeasure, not offer any solutions,
and would be dismissed by all, except
the loyal anti crowd.

He was a very big person in the small
anti-psychiatry movement, but ineffective
in public policy and a failure as
San Diego's County Mental Health Director.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2005, 01:56:00 PM »
What I wish we could all get behind is more research to develop objective, biological, lab tests to differentiate those of us with serious mental illnesses from those without them.

I want a computer program that will take a SPECT scan and spit out a diagnosis with a confidence interval, and spit out a violence risk, again with a confidence interval.

Violence risks are tricky, because even a sane person who's pissed off enough will do horrible, violent things to another person.  Just listen to sane people describing what they want done to particularly horrible murderers, rapists, or child molesters.

But what you probably *can* get is a percent risk increase--this brain pattern increases this patient's risk of violence X% plus or minus Y% at the 95th percent confidence interval.

I don't think someone should be locked up just because of their scan, I think their scan should be an important tool for *them* to use in making the case that they should *not* be locked up.

I think that even though most of the people we involuntarily commit are seriously mentally ill, we probably commit more people than are actively dangerous---and release some that were a hair's breadth from being committed because the bed went to someone who isn't dangerous enough to be in it, but fewer, I think.

One of the reasons I'm such a big fan of brain scans is that a scan after you put the patient on meds can tell you if the meds are working or not.  And seeing the before and after scans, to compare with the scans of typical "normal" brains, is often real helpful for convincing people to take and stay on their meds, and for showing their family in concrete terms what the meds are doing for them.

The other thing the scans show is which problems in which parts of the brain *aren't* being helped by a particular med.  That can be hard for patients to put in words to a doc, but seeing it on the scan, it's obvious which lobes of the brain the patient is still having problems with.

A lot of times this is why one patient will have to be on multiple medications---different medications do a better or worse job of normalizing problem areas in different lobes of the brain.

So you're taking one med for your temporal lobe problems, but if it's not touching your frontal lobe problems, you may have to add a med on to take care of those---and seeing the scan helps the docs a lot in narrowing down *which* meds to try, one after the other, to see if one works without bad side effects.

And, of course, SPECT scans help with crafting *non* drug interventions to help the patient, as well.  If your meds or therapies take care of certain big problems, but still leave some troublesome little ones hanging around in other parts of the brain, a lot of times the docs can help improve your abilities in those areas by having you do targetted therapeutic tasks specifically aimed at the parts of the brain where you're having trouble.  Tasks related to the other things that part of the brain handles, that may seem to the layman to have not a lot of relationship to the stuff you're actually having trouble with---but that, when you work the tasks and work the tasks, your ability to do the tasks that were unusually hard for you gets better.

It's kind of like physical therapy has you do bizarre things that don't seem to have any relationship to what your trouble is, but darned if they don't help you get better.

I would think the people who are anti-psych would be all over the task-based therapies for problems in different parts of the brain like white on rice.

Maybe they are and I just missed it.

Go figure.

But the point is that regardless of ignorant yahoos' bad motivations in applying the laws for how to deal with people who really are dangerously mentally ill, we would *all* benefit from research that would make it less a matter of *anyone's* subjective opinion who those folks are.

SPECT scanning still seems fairly subjective in some ways--it could be that I just don't know enough about it, though.  But it has the promise of, with a lot of data, giving us much better ideas of what makes various kinds of problems better or worse for which people, and what combinations of problems are a stick of dynamite waiting for a fuse.

For those of you who are normal, no matter what you decided to think about or try to feel while being scanned, you *could not* make your brain do the patchy shite *my* brain would do if they took my off my meds and scanned me.

And you almost certainly could not, no matter what you did, make your brain do what mine does in the verbal areas despite the meds.

Believe me, if it were possible, aspiring writers would have "how-to" pages all over the net telling each other how to trigger hypergraphia in themselves.  It's a specific brain abnormality that there are plenty of people who don't have it think they want it.

A sharp blow to the head in the wrong/right place has been known to *accidentally* turn someone into a hypergraph without causing a full-on mental illness, but nobody's got any way to turn it on, or off, on purpose.

You can meditate and therapize and change your diet (without drugs or pharmeceutical grade supplements) until you're blue in the face, and so can I, but without heavy duty drugs, your (normal) brain SPECT scan will look nothing like mine, and mine will look nothing like normal.

Not everyone who argues against people having actual physical neurological problems that affect their thinking and behavior is going to have a normal SPECT scan, because some of those folks are pretty eccentric, and there's probably something "different" that makes for those eccentricities that would show.  But mere opinion and belief system isn't going to be enough to change your scans one way or another.

I guess a way to explain the difference between someone "faking nuts" for a pshrink and "faking nuts" for a SPECT scan is that anybody can *say* they hear voices, but making yourself believe you actually hear them is a whole 'nother ballgame.

Conversely, anybody can *say* there aren't any little voices in their head even if the little voices are chattering away like mad.  Shutting off the little voices is a whole 'nother ballgame.

Timoclea

Okay, I misremembered where the "normal" red blotches were on a brain.  I'm not a neurologist  But here,

Your Brain:

http://www.brainplace.com/bp/atlas/ch2.asp

See?  Nice fluffy cloud, mostly blue, a few red blotches in very specific places.

My Brain:

http://www.brainplace.com/bp/atlas/ch8.asp

Not the schizophrenic one, the bipolar one.  Although you'll notice in the schizophrenic one that the right level of risperdal makes the swiss cheese go away. :smile:

Some of the brain problems seen in violence cases:

http://www.brainplace.com/bp/atlas/ch14.asp

Notice that different kinds of things can cause violence, from impaired decision making abilities, impulse control problems, overactivity in emotional areas that involve rage--there are normally several systems keeping our "fight" actions in check.  Disable one of those systems and the wrong kind of stimulus can trigger violence that in a normal person that system would have prevented, and in a damaged person, the system that would have stopped it just isn't working.

Like, impulse control: God, I want to strangle that obnoxious sonofabitch---but you don't.  Killing the guy at the DMV who's being a prick about your license renewal.  Yeah, he's a real prick, but he doesn't really deserve to die.

Decision making: That sonofabitch is evil, but killing him is not a very good way of dealing with it.  Killing the girlfriend who was smarming up to you and spending your money while flagrantly cheating on you behind your back.  She's a really horrible person, true, but there are better ways of dealing with that than killing her.

Rage: Dammit, that fucker just cut me off, I am so pissed!  But I take a deep breath and start to calm down almost immediately, or don't get nearly as pissed as I would if my rage circuits were on overdrive.  Killing the guy that's mowing his lawn at 8am on a Saturday because that really bugs you and you just happen to explode with rage right then.  *You* didn't really think the guy deserved to die, but you were so mad nothing could have stopped you.
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2005, 02:23:00 PM »
NIMH is the largest provider of funds for mental health research:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/

If you are in a big city, your universities
are probably doing some of this research.

I have participated in brain scan studies
at UCSD.

Any findings have to be reproducable and
evidence based before they can be put
into practice.

There are many theories, and much more
research to be done to prove those theories
and put them into practice and to develop
new theories and test them.

It takes seventeen years from the first
research until it is proven and put into
clinical practice.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2005, 02:25:00 PM »
Here is a great website, loaded with
information and a free newsletter,
all researched and compiled by a
Bipolar consumer:
http://mcmanweb.com/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2005, 04:41:00 PM »
Paul,
I am not going to do research for you while you spend your Sunday afternoon playing water volleyball. Get a grip. Is a ?superiority complex? part of your ?mental illness? dx?

As to your arrogant comment ?welcoming? me to present my platform? I?ve already said that I don?t care to debate the ?religion? of psychiatry with you.  

As for the damage psych drugs do? see the Psychiatrist?s Bible. Right there in their diagnostic manual, which most people don?t even read before swallowing the pills. All pharmaceuticals are very hard on the liver and kidneys, brain and heart. Some will even increase suicidal ideation, and possibly homicidal tendencies.

One blatant discrepancy in your comments is the claim that drugs are not the only services provided, then you tell how the funds for the AB 2034 program had disappeared. There?s theory and what we hope would happen, and then there is the reality of what?s being practiced? that too many get their rx without having any of their problems with living addressed.

The ?anti-psych crowd? in Texas has protected those under 18 from having their brains fried with ECT, have confronted and educated lawmakers on the realities of foster children being over medicated, ensured that public school staff/adm can not diagnose mental illness or demand psychiatric treatment, exposed TMAP/ Teen Screen for what they are, among other very useful and beneficial things. Some testified for ?Black Box Warnings? on SSRIs. Roll your eyes until you?re dizzy, but that kind of activism is not going to come from the pro-psych crowd.

Let?s talk about ?profitable niches?.  Does the comment that ?30% of homeless have mental illness? have any basis in reality? Who determined this? How was it determined? Might it rather be a projection of how much $$$ big pharma would like coming into their bank accounts, asap? At $200+ per month, I?d say they probably have a significant stake in 30% having ?mental illness?. Same with the stats on how many teens have undiagnosed ?mental illness? they are using to justify screening in public schools. Care to disclose if any of your personal assets are invested in big pharma?

Hey, a point we can agree on, ?The one's that follow rather than think are just being taken advantage of, and they will be the last to know, sadly.?

Emotional comments don?t count in public policy. Damn straight. So post up concrete evidence that ?mental illness? DOES exist, short of neurological damage. While you?re at it, post up any evidence (not assumptions or wishful thinking) that might prove ?mental illness? is genetic or can't be overcome by any other method than drugs. Don?t bother with all the ?evidence? that claims that it ?might? or ?appears to be?. Just the FACTS, Paul.

Dr Mosher did good work. You claim ?we?ve had non-med programs for years?. Where are they Paul? How many exist? Where is the funding? Why are people who?d would rather not damage their organs and brains, if they knew, not educated on other options?  Did you ever visit or know anyone who visited Mosher?s ?non-drug, non-hospital, specially designed and staffed home-like residential treatment facility??
http://www.ahrp.org/about/Mosher.php
Excellent video: http://www.moshersoteria.com/

Or were you too busy rolling your eyes? If the ?eye rollers? (holy rollers) can?t even entertain the success of Mosher?s work, how could you begin to expect him to make any dent in public policy?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mo ... ty+program

Your experience may be different, but what I notice is that public policy is based on thinking (beliefs), which is heavily swayed by those who stand to gain most. Anti-psychs know that public policy is not going to change, other than small gains here and there, until the prevailing thinking changes. You are not going to change the public policy on subjecting teens to ECT, for example, until you?ve educated those who have the power to change that policy.  And let?s face it Paul, non-med options are not profitable to those who are making public policy and have investments in big pharma.

Here?s one of my favorite arguments against coercive psychiatry by one of my favorite ?antis?.
There is a widespread misconception in society that Institutional Mental Health (this term is intended to cover psychiatrists, psychologists and other ?mental health? professionals) provides valuable services to individuals in need of help and generally attempts to foster personal change or ?growth? I argue in this paper that the praxis of Institutional Mental Health is based on a model that is not oriented primarily toward generating change, but toward maintaining social control. Thus, this model is problematic on ethical as well as on epistemological grounds: it underestimates the individual?s capacity for change and it consequently undermines this very capacity?..
http://www.academyanalyticarts.org/farber.htm

Who funds NIMH?  

?Any findings have to be reproducable and evidence based before they can be put
into practice.?
Paul, that?s nice wishful thinking buddy, but has no basis in reality.  Have you not read anything about the FDAs role in obscuring inaccurate research data? It?s near impossible for any research to be completely objective.
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2005, 05:08:00 PM »
:smile:  Well, it's a good day when you have the perspective to laugh at yourself, I guess.

Yes, yes, it's all a conspiracy to fry our minds with chemicals and take our money and those of us who feel like our lives are better on psychiatric meds are just stupidly deluding ourselves and doomed to perish in a pile of gooey chemical sludge Any Day Now.

[yawn]

Timoclea
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2005, 05:14:00 PM »
The Soteria site is packed with very useful information:
http://www.moshersoteria.com/

To the rational human, this should speak volumes:

Soteria Associates:
Mental Health Consulting from an Alternative Viewpoint

What We Are About
Our mission is to provide evidence based alternative (to the currently dominant biomedical model) explanatory concepts and practices for the mental health community. We offer educational materials, lectures, seminars, consultations, support groups, advocacy, and expert testimony.

Our name has its origin in the Soteria project. In a random assignment study the Soteria Project demonstrated that acute psychosis could be treated successfully in the context of caring human relationships without the use of anti-psychotic drugs. Soteria is a Greek word meaning salvation or deliverance. For more information about the Soteria Project see the articles on this website.

The alternative evidence we present stands in contrast to the currently dominant biomedical hypotheses about the nature of major "mental illness". The alternative practice we espouse is not based on the medical model that treats nearly everything with psychotropic drugs. Rather, our model is voluntary, need and problem focused, relationship based, holistic, consumer (including families and social networks) driven and recovery oriented.  

While we may offer various drugs (including dietary supplements and herbal remedies) they are viewed as adjunctive and used in as low a dose as possible for the shortest period of time that will allow evaluation of their usefulness.  

There is no methodologically sound scientific data that what is labeled "serious mental illness" is genetically determined, is the result of identifiable biochemical abnormalities, is associated with specific brain lesions or is due to known etiologic agents (see bibliography on this site). Basically, the current hypothesis that "mental illness" is a "brain disease" is unsupported by data, making its continued propagation as "true" a myth or a delusion or a fraud. As such, we are in the realm of religious dogma -- not science. Pity the non-believers, for they shall be punished as deviants.  

We do know that there are a number of psychosocial factors associated with the development of problematic behaviors:

poverty

childhood sexual and /or physical abuse

parental neglect

dysfunctional family behaviors such as the inability to communicate clearly and cogently, a pervasive family context of hostility and criticism, serious addictions, parental emotional divorce, high levels of stress secondary to chronic intra-familial conflict and an absence of a supportive social network.  

Fortunately, by being able to understand the relationship of problematic behaviors to these psychosocial factors the kinds of interventions most likely to ameliorate their impact on those embedded in these psychonoxious contexts can be defined and implemented. Basically, being able to define the nature of a problem makes it possible to develop a potential solution. For example, if family conflict seems to be the main issue, it can be dealt with in family therapy specifically focused on reduction of conflict.  

We believe that operating within a psychosocial paradigm can avoid many of the problems associated with the medicalization of what is labeled as "mental illness".

As we see it, the downside of the biomedical model of treatment is:  

A labeling process that does not allow for unlabeling and hence, almost inevitably, produces marginalization and discrimination

Institutionalization that disrupts family and social network relationships and does little to help find meaningfulness in relation to crises, further escalating anxiety and perplexity in all those who care

The introduction of the current (but erroneous) biomedical view of serious "mental illness" as being "incurable", "chronic", and/or "deteriorating". Maintenance is possible but-hope-so necessary for recovery, is nearly impossible in this conceptualization

Medication, viewed by most as a required part of treatment, may actually impede or prevent recovery by aborting a potentially helpful psychological process that needs to be related to and understood rather than suppressed. It has, for example, been shown that the use of the anti-psychotic drugs, at least for what is called "schizophrenia", has resulted in poorer long- term outcomes than was the case prior to their use. In addition, suicide rates have not been reduced as a result of the use of the anti-depressant medications

In violation of the Hippocratic dictum to "above all, do no harm", excessive reliance on medications has produced enormous rates of iatrogenic (doctor induced) diseases such as tardive dyskinesia and dementia, neuroleptic malignant syndrome, akathisia, suicidality, obesity, reproductive difficulties, and addiction-to name but a few

The model has induced a sense of powerlessness in individuals, families and social networks because of its ability to use coercion in the name of providing "medical treatment"

Medicalization has produced a psychiatric/drug company/hospital industrial complex that has such power and control over theory and practice as to make a change to a humanistic, psychosocial paradigm virtually impossible.

Many mental health professionals -- especially psychiatrists -- will attempt to invalidate and refute this argument -- while defending the status quo -- by referring to the "miraculous" effects of drug treatment. In addition they will contend that clinical practice is actually based on a "biopsychosocial model." It takes a very serious case of denial not to see what is before your eyes: Mental health treatment for the so-called "seriously mentally ill" is centered on medication with lip service at best being given to the "psychosocial" part of the model.  

Consider these questions: How many adult mental health consumers in the mental health systems you know about are not being prescribed medications? What percentages are receiving regular psychotherapy of any type? How many are regularly able to access peer support groups? Is client input into program planning and development real -- or is it just tokenism? Are there client run programs? Are the expressed needs of clients taken seriously?

We believe the alternative voice provided by Soteria Associates and other similar organizations that provide accurate information (that is, with no conflict of interest) and education about the realities of today's mental health context -- via critical examination of current research on mental illness -- is much needed. Without critical dissident voices the real recovery oriented needs of persons with complex and recalcitrant problems will never be addressed.  

There are many, many consumers and families coming to the realization that today's treatment landscape is desolate of any real understanding, help or hope for them. Soteria Associates hears from these dissatisfied persons daily by phone, email and regular mail. Among the many issues they raise, the following are common themes:  

They inquire whether there are any treatment centers that do not use psychotropic drugs routinely -- at present there are five in the entire country.

They ask to be withdrawn from psychotropic drugs because of the terrifying and painful effects they have experienced from them -- but there are no doctors or facilities willing to take on the arduous task of withdrawing these drugs. Many report that the drugs have not really helped them -- only caused them problems. Many of those who have tried to withdraw experienced very frightening and unpleasant withdrawal reactions --often of sufficient magnitude to make them restart the medication.

They seek to understand and deal more effectively with their experiences but can not find persons willing to join with them in this difficult collaborative endeavor. Basically, no one wants to hear them out. Psychiatric residents (trainees) are taught that you "can't talk to disease" (ie, "schizophrenia" and severe depression or mania).

They wonder why it is so difficult to find decent affordable housing with interpersonal support, if needed, in such an affluent country.

They seek almost any alternative way of dealing with their problems but there are few professionals willing to offer anything outside the current dogma. Even asking, or questioning, may be viewed as non-compliance, further damaging their reputations.

The list goes on, but these are representative examples of what is wrong with the system. We find ourselves empathizing with their powerlessness and hopelessness.

It would be delusional to believe that Soteria Associates, a very small voice in a vast wilderness, can, by itself, address these needs. What is required is the formation of many communities of persons (and their friends) who have been failed by biomedically focused mental health treatment, the formation of groups demanding an alternative: Interventions that are humane, focused on understanding the meaningfulness of subjective experience, and on filling legitimate needs is what we espouse. Soteria Associates will be glad to be facilitators in so far as our resources allow.

However, the system will not change without the MOBILIZATION OF MANY VOICES OF ANGRY, DISAFFECTED CONSUMERS -- and those who care about them -- collectively directed to changing the status quo and replacing those perpetuating it.
   
Soteria Associates
(Loren R. Mosher M.D.- Psychiatrist, Director)
Dr. Mosher is dead. His widow and co-worker,
Judy Schreiber, may be reached at this address
Mental Health, Research and Forensic Consultation
2616 Angell Ave., San Diego, CA. 92122
Phone 858-550-0312 Fax 858-558-0854
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2005, 05:30:00 PM »
Tim, are you saying that your psyche drugs have no side effects whatever? Please!

Of course there's conspiracy involved. Whenever two or more people make plans, that's a conspiracy. Conspiracies abound.

How about this? Having carefully considered all options, you take meds that you and your doctor deem to be well worth the potential side effects. It's all good between you, the doc, the pharmacos and the rest of society.

But, at the same time, the pharmacos and mental health industry are very openly conspiring to get a large segment of the population taking their drugs. For most of these people, the drugs are not worth the risks because, unlike you, they don't have any sort of organic brain problem. They're just teenagers and younger children who stubbornly fail or refuse to conform to the educrats' latest definition of "normal" or they're people on the skids for a wide variety of reasons that have nothing whatever to do w/ organic illness of any kind, let alone those very specific conditions that can be improved w/ certain psyche drugs.

Not to push your buttons, but I think you have to be bug all nuts to believe that money and social control play no part in saga.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2005, 07:51:00 PM »
Try and check into the program,
let me know what happens?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2005, 07:54:00 PM »
Ginger,

I am also on psychotropic medications
with no side effects.

Not all patients have side effects.

You know that, you know better than
to assume that "all" have side effects.

We have had early and periodic testing
in San Diego and California for three
or so years, we have gotten no complaints
on the mental health board.

There is criteria for diagnosis. Social
control is not one of them.

Medications do not turn people into
lemmings, you should know that also!

What is up with these "absolute" beliefs,
what is your agenda.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Paul

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« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2005, 08:01:00 PM »
Yes, there are still non medication clinics to go.

The one my roomate went to shut down. It was
called Morning Star in San Diego County.

Safe Harbor is having a non medication conference
in June.

I offered to get the folks at Safe Harbor going
with the Mental Health Services Act for funding,
but they where not interested. I tried ...

Do you need these links?

BTW, since Dr. Mosher is been dead for for
three quarters of a year, will there be
a replacement on the board:
http://www.ahrp.org/about/Mosher.php
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.