What if AA is mainstream and Fornits is the cult?

[Eliscu2]

:eek:

[DannyB II]

Hey, I thought you liked me. My last name is Bennison, why was I first.

Nothing personal.  My point was just that we would ban anybody who disagrees with us on whatever.

This is unrelated, but let me ask anyway, Danny: How would you react if somebody came on here claiming Elan saved their life?  What would you think about it?

Whoa now psy, you can not drag me into this conversation, my views have always been the same, I have never changed them.  I know folks who feel Elan saved their life. They have felt this way for 30 years, Early Elan, 70-75 possibly had some great moments, I know that Elan 5 under Ed Freidman was not a bad environment to be in for a TC.
I happen to spend a great deal of time with Joe Ricci, Marty Kruglick, Peter McCann and Jeff Gottlieb to think Elan was anything other then a warehouse making money off the backs of kids that should have never been placed their. In 1976 when Elan reached a population of over 400 residents we were understaffed and completely overwhelmed. Frustrations were at a heighten level and the abuse was rampant. Joe, Peter, Marty were falling apart personally and the company was taking the brunt of it.
This is what I think, in short.

[DannyB II]

I wish people would be more open to have an honest conversation and to other people's opinions, but I think that will get better over time.

I know just what you mean. I wish people like you, Whooter, Danny, et cet were more open to the fact that many people were abused in these programs. That being said though, I've been posting here for years, and it doesn't seem as if your side will ever open to those facts or will be willing to really listen to the other side.

Robert, I went to Elan, must I say more. My side, your side, Bla Bla Bla. This is your creation not mine.

[DannyB II]

Che, look in the mirror. What your 30yrs. something and still acting like 18yrs. booze has a lot to do with this.

I was with Aaron for a week.  He hardly drank a drop.  On the last day we bought a 6 pack of imported beer.  I din't finish my first.  I think he had two and a half, maybe, but he's a big guy.  In typical fashion you're accusing others of having problems they dont have, and if they deny it it's just further evidence of their problem.
 
To you, because Aaron has admitted to drinking on the forum, he must be an irresponsible alcoholic like you.  One in denial.  Nothing he says, can sway you because in your eyes he's in denial. Nothing I can say will sway you because in your eyes I'm not a drunk, and therefore cannot possibly know what i'm talking about.

First off, you keep associating me with your idea of AA, it is not mine. Second, Che has given us all the information we need to surmise his personal problem. I'd bet I am not to far off. Che and yourself journey to California was a while ago, so I would not be referring to that time frame.
Hey, why do you have a problem with my careless characterizations of folks but others here no a problem with theirs. You don't have to answer, I already know.

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Che Gookin]

Hey, I thought you liked me. My last name is Bennison, why was I first.

Nothing personal.  My point was just that we would ban anybody who disagrees with us on whatever.

This is unrelated, but let me ask anyway, Danny: How would you react if somebody came on here claiming Elan saved their life?  What would you think about it?

Whoa now psy, you can not drag me into this conversation, my views have always been the same, I have never changed them.  I know folks who feel Elan saved their life. They have felt this way for 30 years, Early Elan, 70-75 possibly had some great moments, I know that Elan 5 under Ed Freidman was not a bad environment to be in for a TC.
I happen to spend a great deal of time with Joe Ricci, Marty Kruglick, Peter McCann and Jeff Gottlieb to think Elan was anything other then a warehouse making money off the backs of kids that should have never been placed their. In 1976 when Elan reached a population of over 400 residents we were understaffed and completely overwhelmed. Frustrations were at a heighten level and the abuse was rampant. Joe, Peter, Marty were falling apart personally and the company was taking the brunt of it.
This is what I think, in short.

And yet we come back to the premise that each and every person there in Elan witnessed at least one person being abused in some way. With Elan the likely number spirals even higher than one given the absolutely disgusting history of that program. Does it really matter if there are people who believe that Elan saved their life? Absolutely not, given they witnessed others being abused. The added complication of peer abuse in Elan makes it even more of a murky situation given the history of the Ring and General meetings that involved repeated instances of peer related abuse.

This is the shocking concept at play here:

Program survivors who believe the program saved them despite being the witness of the abuse of a fellow detainee....

What does that tell you about that person?

What does this tell you about Max who spent time in a WWASP program? You can be almost certain to a 99 percent certainty that he witnessed someone being abused physically, mentally, verbally, or sexually during his stay. Yet, he passes his experience off as a positive one and makes no effort to consider the feelings and emotions of his fellow detainees who were abused. He doesn't even consider it abusive that he witnessed abuse. What does that tell you about his ability to put his experience into perspective?

Again, this is why I can't and never will take people like Max very seriously.

People like Danny who claim Elan 5 was an alright place for the 1970s. Whoopie doo? A veritable island of sanity in a sea of psychotic abusive staff and crazed residents all acting out their sad tale in a real life Lord of the Flies all of the sudden means anything?

No, sorry, doesn't mean anything other than some people got lucky and in the process forgot that it is perfectly normal to feel enraged at the sight of other human beings being hurt by others. They forgot to feel guilty for being involved in it and not resisting. They forgot this guilty, they denied their rage, and they sold out every single person that ever has been abused by their programs and ever will be abused.

and yes, Fuck you danny.

 :twofinger:

[Che Gookin]

FWIW:  I don't think this is really about Che drinking rather DannyB II getting attention on fornits (Danny knows this).  What is he trying to accomplish?  Is he focused on the important issues {closing abusive programs}?  I don't think he is.  Whereas I think most people would agree he has exhibited a pattern of disrespect and lack of focus.  This isn't the only website he's done this on:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 2373072738 ( Danny )

I think the best plan of action would be to ignore Danny's negative behaviors.  

"sweet cheeks"

Joel,

This is Danny's way of discrediting people and trying to get them embroiled into nonsensical arguments. He's derailed and destroyed several other forums this way. Better off just ignoring him.

[DannyB II]

Hey, I thought you liked me. My last name is Bennison, why was I first.

Nothing personal.  My point was just that we would ban anybody who disagrees with us on whatever.

This is unrelated, but let me ask anyway, Danny: How would you react if somebody came on here claiming Elan saved their life?  What would you think about it?

Whoa now psy, you can not drag me into this conversation, my views have always been the same, I have never changed them.  I know folks who feel Elan saved their life. They have felt this way for 30 years, Early Elan, 70-75 possibly had some great moments, I know that Elan 5 under Ed Freidman was not a bad environment to be in for a TC.
I happen to spend a great deal of time with Joe Ricci, Marty Kruglick, Peter McCann and Jeff Gottlieb to think Elan was anything other then a warehouse making money off the backs of kids that should have never been placed their. In 1976 when Elan reached a population of over 400 residents we were understaffed and completely overwhelmed. Frustrations were at a heighten level and the abuse was rampant. Joe, Peter, Marty were falling apart personally and the company was taking the brunt of it.
This is what I think, in short.

And yet we come back to the premise that each and every person there in Elan witnessed at least one person being abused in some way. With Elan the likely number spirals even higher than one given the absolutely disgusting history of that program. Does it really matter if there are people who believe that Elan saved their life? Absolutely not, given they witnessed others being abused. The added complication of peer abuse in Elan makes it even more of a murky situation given the history of the Ring and General meetings that involved repeated instances of peer related abuse.

No that is not true at all, there are folks who went to Elan in the early years before the physical violence, screaming and hollering that witnessed really no abuse. I have talked with them, about the time Matt and Mark showed up Elan was implementing more physical behavior modification methods. I think this was early 1974.

This is the shocking concept at play here:

Program survivors who believe the program saved them despite being the witness of the abuse of a fellow detainee....

What does that tell you about that person?

It does not tell you anything about said person Che, when you have your information your writing here inaccurate.

What does this tell you about Max who spent time in a WWASP program? You can be almost certain to a 99 percent certainty that he witnessed someone being abused physically, mentally, verbally, or sexually during his stay. Yet, he passes his experience off as a positive one and makes no effort to consider the feelings and emotions of his fellow detainees who were abused. He doesn't even consider it abusive that he witnessed abuse. What does that tell you about his ability to put his experience into perspective?

Your assuming a lot here, Che. You have no idea if he witnessed abuse. So it can not tell us anything.

Again, this is why I can't and never will take people like Max very seriously.

Well then you dismiss a possible education.

People like Danny who claim Elan 5 was an alright place for the 1970s. Whoopie doo? A veritable island of sanity in a sea of psychotic abusive staff and crazed residents all acting out their sad tale in a real life Lord of the Flies all of the sudden means anything?


 Elan 5, was alright for a while there whether you like this characterization or not.
 

No, sorry, doesn't mean anything other than some people got lucky and in the process forgot that it is perfectly normal to feel enraged at the sight of other human beings being hurt by others. They forgot to feel guilty for being involved in it and not resisting. They forgot this guilty, they denied their rage, and they sold out every single person that ever has been abused by their programs and ever will be abused.

Che this is your take on it and I'll tell ya, it is a plausible argument. I just happen to take folks at their word until I get to know them. Some of the folks I am referring to did not experience abuse nor witnessed it by their accounts. I say alright, they are entitled to their reality. I have known some of them for many years. They are doing well as their children ..ect.
Life goes on.

[DannyB II]

FWIW:  I don't think this is really about Che drinking rather DannyB II getting attention on fornits (Danny knows this).  What is he trying to accomplish?  Is he focused on the important issues {closing abusive programs}?  I don't think he is.  Whereas I think most people would agree he has exhibited a pattern of disrespect and lack of focus.  This isn't the only website he's done this on:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 2373072738 ( Danny )

I think the best plan of action would be to ignore Danny's negative behaviors.  

"sweet cheeks"

Joel is Aaron's (Che's) brother, so every time I say something concerning his brother Joel (sweet cheeks) doesn't like. He comes to Aarons rescue. Isn't this just dandy.

[DannyB II]

FWIW:  I don't think this is really about Che drinking rather DannyB II getting attention on fornits (Danny knows this).  What is he trying to accomplish?  Is he focused on the important issues {closing abusive programs}?  I don't think he is.  Whereas I think most people would agree he has exhibited a pattern of disrespect and lack of focus.  This isn't the only website he's done this on:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 2373072738 ( Danny )

I think the best plan of action would be to ignore Danny's negative behaviors.  

"sweet cheeks"

Joel,

This is Danny's way of discrediting people and trying to get them embroiled into nonsensical arguments. He's derailed and destroyed several other forums this way. Better off just ignoring him.

No, this is Danny destroying your credibility, Che. You seem to think you are a expert on the TTI no matter what forum your speaking on. You seem to think you can say whatever you want, to whoever you please, however you want to say it. I am here to counter that and keep you honest. Especially when it comes to matters I feel are important.
You started this fight dip-shit so deal with it and stop crying. Please tell your brother that anytime he would like to grow a pair, we would all appreciate it.

[Maximilian]

You can be almost certain to a 99 percent certainty that he witnessed someone being abused physically, mentally, verbally, or sexually during his stay.

I am being completely honest when I say I did not witness any abuse. But then again, it depends on what your definition of abuse is. My definition is something that you could call the police and report an assault, something that is illegal. I know many posters here consider being kept in a program against your will abusive, some people consider group therapy psychological abuse, some people consider isolation abuse, and some people think not being allowed to masturbate is sexual abuse. I get all that, but I can't say " I was abused", and feel like I'm being honest. I was treated in a strict way, because I had proven many times over that I could not be trusted with my own freedoms. So they took those freedoms away from me, which also included taking the freedom for me to destroy myself.

I never saw abuse in the program. I did see restraints, but they were all for a good reason. I never saw staff hitting staff with mean intentions, or anything like that. When people talk about child abuse, it means a parent hitting their kid with a belt, or something like that. The word abuse here is watered down to a degree, that I don't think sometimes we are even talking about the same thing. Psy says he was abused in a treatment center, how? What incident exactly qualifies as "abuse", you can't just say everyone in a program is being abused and not back it up with something. I am going on my own experience and what I saw. I'm not saying it was all cake and ice cream all the time, some difficult things happened, as you would expect when a large group of troubled teens is located in one facility. But mean spirited, outright abuse? I never saw any of that. If illegal abuse is happening in all programs right now, why don't you all just call the cops?  Because child abuse is illegal, and if you know it's happening make the call and get the to arrest the people. Arguing with me isn't going to help any kids.

Yet, he passes his experience off as a positive one and makes no effort to consider the feelings and emotions of his fellow detainees who were abused.

This comes up a lot on fornits. I should shut up and keep my opinions to myself, lest I hurt the feelings of the poor, fragile victims of programs. Look around, this is fornits, a place that says it welcomes all opinions and has no moderation. People are free to start their own threads, and post all they want, right? Well I'll post my opinions and they can post there's, that's exactly what this forum is designed for. It's not my fault none of them show up to talk about it.

He doesn't even consider it abusive that he witnessed abuse. What does that tell you about his ability to put his experience into perspective?

Correct. I view abuse as an illegal assault, something you could be arrested or cited for by official law enforcement agencies or child protective services.I thought about it for a long time, and realized even if I had a cell phone in the program, I couldn't have called the cops or CPS for anything. Many posters here think what goes on is unethical, fair enough, but it's not illegal child abuse. If it were, somebody would call the cops on every program out there. But it's all legal, so if you guys want that changed go become a legislator or something and stop wasting your time with me.

[Che Gookin]

FWIW:  I don't think this is really about Che drinking rather DannyB II getting attention on fornits (Danny knows this).  What is he trying to accomplish?  Is he focused on the important issues {closing abusive programs}?  I don't think he is.  Whereas I think most people would agree he has exhibited a pattern of disrespect and lack of focus.  This isn't the only website he's done this on:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 2373072738 ( Danny )

I think the best plan of action would be to ignore Danny's negative behaviors.  

"sweet cheeks"

Joel,

This is Danny's way of discrediting people and trying to get them embroiled into nonsensical arguments. He's derailed and destroyed several other forums this way. Better off just ignoring him.

No, this is Danny destroying your credibility, Che. You seem to think you are a expert on the TTI no matter what forum your speaking on. You seem to think you can say whatever you want, to whoever you please, however you want to say it. I am here to counter that and keep you honest. Especially when it comes to matters I feel are important.
You started this fight dip-shit so deal with it and stop crying. Please tell your brother that anytime he would like to grow a pair, we would all appreciate it.

Danny, your tough guy posturing really isn't doing you much in the way of crediting your argument. In the future I'm going to have to insist you refrain from attempting to bully others into submission. It hasn't yet worked for you on these forums and neither will it.

[Che Gookin]

You can be almost certain to a 99 percent certainty that he witnessed someone being abused physically, mentally, verbally, or sexually during his stay.

I am being completely honest when I say I did not witness any abuse. But then again, it depends on what your definition of abuse is. My definition is something that you could call the police and report an assault, something that is illegal. I know many posters here consider being kept in a program against your will abusive, some people consider group therapy psychological abuse, some people consider isolation abuse, and some people think not being allowed to masturbate is sexual abuse. I get all that, but I can't say " I was abused", and feel like I'm being honest. I was treated in a strict way, because I had proven many times over that I could not be trusted with my own freedoms. So they took those freedoms away from me, which also included taking the freedom for me to destroy myself.

I never saw abuse in the program. I did see restraints, but they were all for a good reason. I never saw staff hitting staff with mean intentions, or anything like that. When people talk about child abuse, it means a parent hitting their kid with a belt, or something like that. The word abuse here is watered down to a degree, that I don't think sometimes we are even talking about the same thing. Psy says he was abused in a treatment center, how? What incident exactly qualifies as "abuse", you can't just say everyone in a program is being abused and not back it up with something. I am going on my own experience and what I saw. I'm not saying it was all cake and ice cream all the time, some difficult things happened, as you would expect when a large group of troubled teens is located in one facility. But mean spirited, outright abuse? I never saw any of that. If illegal abuse is happening in all programs right now, why don't you all just call the cops?  Because child abuse is illegal, and if you know it's happening make the call and get the to arrest the people. Arguing with me isn't going to help any kids.

Yet, he passes his experience off as a positive one and makes no effort to consider the feelings and emotions of his fellow detainees who were abused.

This comes up a lot on fornits. I should shut up and keep my opinions to myself, lest I hurt the feelings of the poor, fragile victims of programs. Look around, this is fornits, a place that says it welcomes all opinions and has no moderation. People are free to start their own threads, and post all they want, right? Well I'll post my opinions and they can post there's, that's exactly what this forum is designed for. It's not my fault none of them show up to talk about it.

He doesn't even consider it abusive that he witnessed abuse. What does that tell you about his ability to put his experience into perspective?

Correct. I view abuse as an illegal assault, something you could be arrested or cited for by official law enforcement agencies or child protective services.I thought about it for a long time, and realized even if I had a cell phone in the program, I couldn't have called the cops or CPS for anything. Many posters here think what goes on is unethical, fair enough, but it's not illegal child abuse. If it were, somebody would call the cops on every program out there. But it's all legal, so if you guys want that changed go become a legislator or something and stop wasting your time with me.

Making absolutely sure you don't delete this post.

this one is full of sickness.

[none-ya]

Look Max. You keep saying you were not abused. And that you never even wittnesed any abuse.If this is real, then I an truly glad for you.But you are only one person with one story among many. Just as you lived your ordeal so did we.I know what I saw and I know what I lived. And I know that since you had a positive program experience,you are in no way quallified to speak for me. I find that arrogant and pointless. It must be nice to see yourself at the center of the universe. But guess what you're not the only one here.

[Maximilian]

I'm always going in the Seed forum and Straight forum and all of those, and making threads telling people you were not abused, right? Nope. I start my own threads about my own experiences. I talk about myself because I choose to share my experiences and comment about them, and my own opinions, rather than spend my time following other posters around telling them they are liars and complaining they don't represent my pro treatment views fairly. Everyone who posts here can only speak for themselves, even if they want to claim to be speaking for everyone, it doesn't work that way.

There are plenty of other threads people can comment on besides my own, and I don't make a habit of going into other people's threads and telling them why they are right or wrong, or whatever. I wish more people would talk about their own experiences instead of spending so much effort int he pursuit of discrediting others. So the argument that my opinions and me starting a few threads about myself somehow harms other people, or puts them down, well I just don't buy into that very much.

People you can continue to tell me to shut up, to respect the feelings of those who were abused, but I'm not gullible enough to fall for this manipulation. This is fornits, an open free for all relating to the TTI. I stay on topic and post well thought out threads, and get a lot of bullshit in response. People should start their own threads and make their own arguments, instead of trying to guilt me into shutting up. Because it won't work, I'm here to stay.