Author Topic: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?  (Read 10629 times)

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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2010, 02:22:58 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Look Joel, I already told you that I don't have any ties to the industry nor do I profit from it.  I had a daughter who attended a wilderness program and then she entered ASR.  That is my entire involvement.


And, last I heard from your own posts, you two don't really speak.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2010, 02:24:58 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Look Joel, I already told you that I don't have any ties to the industry nor do I profit from it.  I had a daughter who attended a wilderness program and then she entered ASR.  That is my entire involvement.


And, last I heard from your own posts, you two don't really speak.

Link?  Reference?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2010, 02:27:27 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Look Joel, I already told you that I don't have any ties to the industry nor do I profit from it.  I had a daughter who attended a wilderness program and then she entered ASR.  That is my entire involvement.


And, last I heard from your own posts, you two don't really speak.

Link?  Reference?

yeah, yeah....ya got me.  I'm not gonna dig through years of posts to find it.  I remember having a discussion about your daughter and you danced around the issue as usual, but the gist is that she wasn't too happy with dear old dad.  Am I wrong?  How's she doing?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Joel

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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2010, 02:33:10 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:28:54 AM by Joel »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2010, 02:38:50 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Look Joel, I already told you that I don't have any ties to the industry nor do I profit from it.  I had a daughter who attended a wilderness program and then she entered ASR.  That is my entire involvement.


And, last I heard from your own posts, you two don't really speak.

Link?  Reference?

yeah, yeah....ya got me.  I'm not gonna dig through years of posts to find it.  I remember having a discussion about your daughter and you danced around the issue as usual, but the gist is that she wasn't too happy with dear old dad.  Am I wrong?  How's she doing?

We communicated much better when she returned.  I think what you recall is when she went back to her old friends after being home a few weeks and I wasn't happy about it.  But since we were able to talk with each other much easier I trusted her and gave her the freedom she asked for.  She eventually realized she had outgrown most of her friends and moved onto college.  The open communication was a big help and I think the biggest change I saw in her post ASR.



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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2010, 02:44:22 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"

We communicated much better when she returned.  I think what you recall is when she went back to her old friends after being home a few weeks and I wasn't happy about it.  But since we were able to talk with each other much easier I trusted her and gave her the freedom she asked for.  She eventually realized she had outgrown most of her friends and moved onto college.  The open communication was a big help and I think the biggest change I saw in her post ASR.


And there it is again.....

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Joel

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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2010, 02:44:41 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:29:19 AM by Joel »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2010, 02:51:26 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

We communicated much better when she returned.  I think what you recall is when she went back to her old friends after being home a few weeks and I wasn't happy about it.  But since we were able to talk with each other much easier I trusted her and gave her the freedom she asked for.  She eventually realized she had outgrown most of her friends and moved onto college.  The open communication was a big help and I think the biggest change I saw in her post ASR.


And there it is again.....


What is it you want to know, Anne?  My daughter and I communicate fine.  We are very open with each other.  Do you not believe this or you have a link that says I indicated something different in the past?
To me dancing means a person is being vague or avoiding an issue.  I think I have been direct in my answers.



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Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2010, 02:56:24 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Whooter
Quote
Does ASR release your contact information to parents who are thinking about sending their child to ASR? How many times has this taken place?


For the first few months after my daughter graduated I would get calls from other parents asking me about our experience with ASR and I would answer their questions.  I believe they asked me at graduation if it would be okay if other parents contacted me.  But there was no formal agreement or need to sign anything.



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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2010, 03:00:34 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
What is it you want to know, Anne?  My daughter and I communicate fine.  We are very open with each other.  Do you not believe this or you have a link that says I indicated something different in the past?
To me dancing means a person is being vague or avoiding an issue.  I think I have been direct in my answers.


That's pretty much exactly what you said what, 4 or more years ago.  Surely she's graduated college by now, right?  You use the phrase  'my daughter and I communicate fine'.  Maybe it's just me, but that sounds, ummmmm, clinical is the only way I can describe it.  How's your general relationship?  Are the two of you close?  How does she feel about her years incarcerated at the various programs (can't remember how many you said you sent her to but I do remember it was more than one)  you sent her to?  


And yes, I think you're being deliberately vague and avoiding the issue.  But that's just me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2010, 03:22:25 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
That's pretty much exactly what you said what, 4 or more years ago.

Yes, my story hasn’t changed at least that is how I recall it.  I am sure perception changes over the years and if you brought up a quote from me from several years ago it may be a little different but the general message should be consistent.

Quote
Surely she's graduated college by now, right? You use the phrase 'my daughter and I communicate fine'. Maybe it's just me, but that sounds, ummmmm, clinical is the only way I can describe it.

She has graduated from college a few years ago.  When I was speaking above I was referencing the time after she came home from ASR.  Sorry if it sounds clinical.  Its just the way I talk I guess.

Quote
How's your general relationship? Are the two of you close? How does she feel about her years incarcerated at the various programs (can't remember how many you said you sent her to but I do remember it was more than one) you sent her to?

We get along well and have a good relationship, she has her own place now and is seeing someone with whom she is serious.  She has fond memories of ASR and keeps in contact with most of the kids in her peer group.  They are in the process of planning a reunion of some sort.
I sent her to a wilderness and then on to ASR.  Total of 16 months I believe.


Quote
And yes, I think you're being deliberately vague and avoiding the issue. But that's just me.

That’s okay, I feel that many times speaking with people here.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Joel

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« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2010, 03:37:15 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:29:44 AM by Joel »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2010, 03:46:15 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Whooter

Quote
When did you enroll your daughter at Academy at Swift River and when did she graduate?  

Joel why all the questions?  I don't recall the exact dates.  If you do a search on my initial posts you will get all that info.  It was the 2001, 2002 time-frame when she was there.


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Offline maruska

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2010, 06:48:40 PM »
So you are really just a program parent?
May I ask what did your wife think about all this? (Sending your daughter away I mean).

And...if you are just a program parent...why do you spend years on this forum?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2010, 08:48:43 PM »
Quote from: "maruska"
So you are really just a program parent?
May I ask what did your wife think about all this? (Sending your daughter away I mean).

And...if you are just a program parent...why do you spend years on this forum?

Your first question......There were differences in opinions but we both knew what was best for her.

Maruska,  I stumbled upon fornits and found people talking about an industry that has saved thousands of lives, like it was evil, and I was struck by their stories.    How could and industry which dedicates itself to turning around "at risk" youths get such a bad rap.  So I stuck around and read the stories here on fornits.

Lets say you sent your Child to join a soccer team and you saw him grow and do well, make friends  and then later met a group of kids who said that soccer was abusive and a cult because they forced you to follow rituals and rules, wear specific clothing  and telling everyone that everyone is hurt by soccer and if  anyone says they were helped then that means they must be brainwashed and part of the cult or subculture.  Wouldn’t you be totally intrigued by that and interested and want to understand what drives these people to think this way?  I know I would.

This is how it was with me.  I was blown away by the stories here and the peoples persistence.

A big part of getting better or turning the corner is to take accountability for ones own actions.  As adults we all know this, but as children it is hard to comprehend this sometimes.  I noticed a similarity in the stories and those who didn’t do well in programs were also those who didn’t take accountability for what they did and blamed others for being in the program.  They blamed their parents, family members, Educational Consultants or staff members.  The kids who did well in programs moved on with their lives, went to college and continued down a healthy path, but they were perceived as brain washed by those who didn’t do well.  Maybe this is because it threatened their belief that “all” people are hurt by programs.  If you read the stories here on fornits the one piece that is missing is the individuals' involvement or contribution to their predicament.  What events lead up to them being placed?  This is always left out in the story and back filled with ....... " My family sent me away for no reason".  What family is going to spend $100,000 for no reason? or for a kid smoking pot?  Which leads us back to the accountability question.

So do you see my dilemma?

I eventually started speaking out and was tagged as an industry person and eventually even fornits admins  got frustrated with me and tagged my avatar as being a nazi in an attempt to discredit my point of view.  This raised the curious question of why would someone do this?  Why would a group of posters care so much about an opposing point of view that they had to try to bury it?  Were they that threatened by me?  And if so why?  

If we substituted the word “program” for “sports team” we would still get kids dyeing from heat exhaustion, being abused, screamed at, forced to carry heavy objects, clean up after themselves.  There are 1,500 or more successful suicides of teenagers every year who attend our public school system.  But if even one (1) of these deaths occurs (Just 1....even once a year) 5 years after a person leaves a program it is considered a program death and people here are up in arms blaming the program they attended and wanting the industry or specific program shut down.  Doesn’t that seem odd to you?  

So I stick around to try and help families to not get so frustrated and give up on their child.  Children need to be listened to and engaged and to just allow them to head down a dangerous path in the hope that everything will turn out okay is just not doing your job as a parent.  Good parents need to know their child is safe at all times.



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